Indian fighter purchase - RFPs to Dassault, SAAB, MiG, F-16

hehe... there's a bit about anjali gupta at the end of that article.. you're from banglore SS.. the trial's happening there.. whats the scene like?

[edit on 29-5-2005 by Daedalus3]

I am not really following the trial, but from the media reorts it seems to me that the lady is guilty and is sinking to terrible levels to salvage herself out of it.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) is not interested in American F-16 or F-18 aircraft as they are prone to human error-related accidents, said sources citing Air Marshal PS Ahluwalia.

Sources said that Ahluwalia, director general of Inspection and Air Safety, gave a presentation to the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), where he showed that human error-related accidents in the F-16s had occurred more frequently than in Mirage 2000s.

It was this presentation that clinched the committee’s decision to clear purchase of 12 Mirage-2000-Vs. The committee was also told that the IAF was finding difficulties in managing the 20 different types of aircraft and would not like to add new makes of aircraft that would complicate the inventory further.

However, Ahluwalia also said the IAF would not like to depend on a single supplier. “It may not be prudent to put all our eggs in one basket, but it would reduce the efforts in terms of maintenance practices by opting for a familiar supplier,” said the air marshal hinting that not only the US firm Lockheed Martin’s F-16s and F-18s are not in the reckoning but even Sweden’s SAAB would not be able to sell its Gripen to India.


Read full article....

[edit on 10-6-2005 by Stealth Spy]

Well...MiG-21s are still more prone to accidents. After all, it is 1960s tech.

In my opinion, India needs to replace those MiG-21s and Jaguars with either one of the options for a cheap interceptor. Personally, I'll pick around 70 MiG-29Ms and the rest Mirages. I just don't like the idea of Indian F-16s, I mean, maintainence nightmare (India probably operates the world's most varied airforce), and Pakistan is using them too. MiG-29Ms are cheap and reliable, the Zhuk would be a very good radar for an interceptor, and paired up with R-77s would be a formidable match even for Pakistan's best F-16s.

Its kind of funny now that I think of it, in Pakistani defence, they talk about Pakistan getting block 52/60 F-16s and Gripens, or even Rafales. Oh well

The 250 kg NIIP Bars-29 'Barsik' is a development of the original Bars-30MKI, intended for the MiG-29. With a relatively low power output of 1 kW, the radar can detect a 5 sq.m RCS target at 100-120 km, lock on to the same at 85 km. The radar can track-while-scan 15 targets and engage 4 of them simultaneously. As with the original, this set combines electronic scanning with a mechanical drive.

new Mig-29 Radar pic:
external image

Edit: Resized photo


[edit on 13-6-2005 by Seekerof]

The new Mig-29 even did a cobra at Aero India !!!

external image

Edit Resized.





[edit on 13-6-2005 by Seekerof]

Stealth Spy, I hate to break it to you but I have seen the MiG-29 fly on numerous occasions and every single time it did the "cobra maneuver", it was anemic at best, it didn't even get beyond 90 deg AoA, so technically, it wasn't even a cobra!

Guess you need to buy yourself a pair of spectacles.

The new Mig-29 is certainly capable of doing a proper cobra of 100+ degrees as it demonstrated.

Sorry to burst your bubble but read this :

The cobra, tail skid, cobra, barrel spin, hook were among the few manoeuvres of the MiG-29M2 which caught the people by awe on Friday at the Air Force Station, Yelahanka , where the Aero India 2005 is being held between February 9 and 13.

link

And for the lucky few who were witness to the next few minutes, he put up a breathtaking display of turns, tail slides, rolls and loops, not to mention a “Cobra,” at angles of attack exceeding 100 degrees.

link

Here's a GREAT Gripen cutaway (1.5 MB jpg file !)

link

Raptor doing the Cobra maneuver, it even launched a Aim-9 Sidewinder while performing the Cobra. If I find the bigger version of the photo I will post it.

The F/A-22 demonstrated its ability to launch an AIM-9 Sidewinder missile while performing elevated g turns during a late December mission. During the flight over the range at the Naval Air Warfare Center, China Lake, California, F/A-22 test pilot Fred Knox banked Raptor 03 sharply and successfully launched the AIM-9.

can the Raptor launch the missile upside down? or u can only launch right side up because it depends on gravity to launch the missile wen it falls off.

I have alredy debunked that pic at www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
I have alredy debunked that pic at www.abovetopsecret.com...

Stealth Spy, are you actually going to believe the cobra maneuver can be used in combat? You're living a lie if you really think so.

Adding full combat weight, and a full weapons load (which means high-wing loading on a Flanker or Fulcrum), and the Flanker and Fulcum's g-loads go down to about 6 to 7.5 g's, and will NOT be able to do a cobra.

You do know that you are the ONLY one here (and the only one i've seen on any forum saying this) that actually thinks the cobra maneuver can be used in combat, it's really quite funny.

You gotta stop posting this garbage man, it shows that you know absolutely nothing about aircraft.

all you need to have is an AOA of 120 degrees.

The fighter pilot is able to do whatever he wishes with the F-22, without fear of loss of control, loss of thrust or aircraft structural overstress. Specifically, this has resulted in an unlimited angle of attack (AOA) capability for the aircraft's basic combat configuration (for example, all internal carriage of weapons and no external stores). There are no AOA limiters, and, most importantly, no restrictions on flightpath. The pilot can run the airplane out of speed and maneuver in the post stall regime with integrated flight controls and thrust vectoring. The F-22 responds smoothly to the pilot and can change flight condition at his command.

www.globalsecurity.org...

Stealth spy, the only reason why the MiG-29 is doing "cobras" is because MiG needed to get rid *ahem* sell the MiG-29s. No videos shown on the F-22 doing the cobra? Check power zone on discovery channel. They shown a VIDEO at which the F-22 reached a 120 degrees AoA and stalled, before regaining normal postion. Think it is blurry? The only reason why we are not seeing F-22s at airshows doing Cobras is because the US does not need to get rid *cough* sell F-22s to anyone.

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
I have alredy debunked that pic at www.abovetopsecret.com...

Your debunking has already been countered. Let me quote Pyros.

Please, people. Enough of this.

The Cobra and all other maneuvers develped by the fine engineers and pilots of the Suhkoi design bureau have little or no practical use in modern air combat.

Fancy charts, internet data, and promotional videos from Russian mean crapola.

I have spoken with actual USAF pilots who fly F-15C aircraft about this tpoic extensively. One of these men is my uncle, a Colonel who flew for TAC for 20 years, and is a qualified USAF flight instructor.

These maneuvers, while impressive, would never be used in modern air-to-air combat except in the more dire, extreme, and last-ditch circumstances, as every pilot knows that speed and altitude is what keeps you alive. If you perform these maneuvers, you lose speed, you lose altitude, and you bleed off precious energy with takes time and fuel to regain.

Air combat is never one-on-one; it hasn't been since the days of WWI. If you bleed off all your energy and slow to 200kts, your foe's wingman will eat you for lunch, while your target is speeding away from you at 3 times your current speed. USAF doctrine has show through decades of actual air-to-air jet combat experience that close-in fights, with mostly evenly matched aircraft, usually boils down to the experience level and determination of the individual pilot, the support (wingman, AWACS, EW) from other friendly units, and even the physical conditioning of the pilots themselves. Fancy maneuvers do not a dogfight win. Excellent pilots in good planes win dogfights.

And that ends it.

[edit on 14/6/05 by W4rl0rD]

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
I have alredy debunked that pic at www.abovetopsecret.com...

stealth spy does what

*hits head with hammer*

nonetheless.. if it ever gets down to dogfighting between a Su-30+ with TVC and any other A/C except for maybe the F-22, the Su-30+ will make quick work of it all..

Agreed. The TVC on the Su-30MKI/MKK or Su-37 will make quick work out of any other fighters with its fast roll and climb rates and supermanoverability. Westpoint, feel free to talk about that picture in the other Cobra topic. Just not here please. If it did came down to WVR combat, the R-73s on the Flankers would easily take out any aircraft.

The Cobra is of close to no use in combat, lets just say you see me, you do a cobra, you expose your red hot burners. I launch a heat seeking missle (R-73, Aim-9, almost every short ranged missle), and boom you get shot down. Even if the radar cannot seek the aircraft (I'm ASSUMING that is true), heat seeking missles will easily kill the Cobra-ing aircraft.

You people are talking about minutiae of aircraft performance as though they were a controlling factor in that aircraft's procurement, and they're not.

Now admittedly I cannot tell the differnce between an Flanker and a Fulcrum at ten thousand meters, and I don't have the time to go to the nearest Janes' and say "No! You're wrong! that angle of attack is really 121 degrees, nerd!"

The only thing I have going is a 30-year career in aerospace with the last fifteen being in aircraft procurement for contractors (MD and Boeing) who have an ever-so-slight presence in the military aviation field. So you can take what I say with a whole carload of salt.

But the first thing you have to remember about aircraft procurement is that pilots fly them, loggies review them, bean-counters recommend them, and politicians decide.

Bean-counters (and loggies, of course) are interested in logistics, the difference between recurring and non-recurring costs, logistics, delivery schedules, and did I mention logistics?

The politicians are interested in international trade offsets, coproduction, license agreements, domestic content, and similar issues.

This doesn't mean that a country will choose an obviously inferior aircraft unless there are tremendous offsetting characteristics -- or the procuring country is a fiscal basket case, which means most vendors would no-bid to the RFQ, anyway.

But let's face it; most front line aircraft will do the job they're supposed to; and once a bidder shows that his particular offering meets the technical requirments, then the bulk of the proposal shifts to support, cost, and trade considerations.

Indians are very smart engineers and scientists, and they know that if they buy an aircraft built outside the country, one Indian technologist will be sacrificed to provide a job for an American, French, Israeli, or Russian engineer. That's why coproduction or licensing is so tremendously important to them -- and well it should be!

And if India doesn't have a lot of money, they're going to want to make aircraft sales contingent on them building all the, say, landing gear for the procured aircraft (not just in India, but wherever that aircraft is sold); or, failing that, they will want a commitment that someone in the United States will buy 273 metric tonnes annually of fermented mare's milk or whatever they have to export to keep their balance of trade levels from becoming as stupid as that of the USA.