I want to ask you something.

Since Freemasonry is a brotherhood, its quite obvious that one of the oaths you take is to protect and help another Mason at all costs, otherwise there would be no fundamental point to this "brotherhood".

With that being said, how can any Mason be believed or trusted, especially when confronted with questions about Freemasonry?

With that being said, why is this site filled with Masons who respond at every chance to anyone questioning it? If I was part of a brotherhood with completely innocent intentions, I surely wouldn't care what people are saying about it, because there is nothing evil to be revealed no matter what theories they come up with?

You don't see me defending Christianity on from people who question it. I have no reason to, because my actions are innocent and their opinions are just that, opinions.

Interested to read your response.

[edit on 22-1-2005 by LogoWatch]

[edit on 22-1-2005 by LogoWatch]

But this isn't an anti mason site. It is a seeking truth site. I defend Christianity and it tenents here, though there are plenty of people who equally defend there is No God.

They refute it because they feel what is being said is wrong

Freemasons do not cover up for other Freemasons. This is a statement that the Troll community will not accept but it is the truth. As a Freemason I will not cover up the wrong doing of another Brother. In the many obligations that I have taken there is no part of them that says I must defend a Brother when he does things that are wrong.

In Freemasonry there are many obligations and many degrees/grades. In Freemasonry we have a system of morality that is just and makes good men better men. Freemasons are not perfect and sometimes they have failings as men. It has been said that to err is human but to forgive is divine.

regards

Brother Gerard

That makes no sense. How could Freemasonary be any kind of brotherhood, if you're not supposed to protect brothers at all costs?

Would your protect your blood brother/sister if they were abusing their child? Committed murder or something along those lines? No. I was in a sorority and we had a standards board. If you did something that was deamed as unacceptable, you were voted out. It was a sisterhood though. Although not all in a brother/sisterhood are equally as close

I would not expect ANYONE to stand up for me if I was doing something immoral/illegal

Logo, I think your definition of "brotherhood" is not shared by everyone.

As a Christian, I consider all other Christians Brothers and Sisters in Christ Jesus, but that does not mean that I will cover up for one if he or she commits a heinous crime.

Although I am not a Mason, I suppose they look at their brotherhood the same way I look at my "brothers" in the church -- or even my brothers-in-law or my actual blood brother: I love them all, I will tend to put up with some of their shortcomings (as they do with mine), but I will not compromise my personal honor or beliefs for them, and if they do something that justifies punishment, I will not cover up for them.

Perhaps the brotherhoods which you have been members of are a bit different; I don't know.

I never took an oath to help a brother "at all costs. There is a LOT to this brotherhood. Were I conflicted by my duty as a citizen or as a Christian and my obligations as a Mason, Masonry would lose. That is no contradiction, as a Mason I first and foremost must believe in a Supreme being, and also be a good member of society. Were I to have a brother confide in me that he committed a crime I would first try to give HIM the opportunity to make it right by turning himself in, and failing that I'd let him know that I would help him as much as I could without myself breaking the civil law.

Originally posted by LogoWatch
I want to ask you something.

Since Freemasonry is a brotherhood, its quite obvious that one of the oaths you take is to protect and help another Mason at all costs, otherwise there would be no fundamental point to this "brotherhood".

Originally posted by LogoWatch
I want to ask you something.

Since Freemasonry is a brotherhood, its quite obvious that one of the oaths you take is to protect and help another Mason at all costs, otherwise there would be no fundamental point to this "brotherhood".

I don't see how you could reach that conclusion. To begin with, Freemasonry teaches the universal Brotherhood of Man, not just those who hold membership in a Lodge. And in the Obligation that a Mason takes, he vows to aid and assist all distressed, worthy Masons, as well as their wives, widows, and orphans.

The word "worthy" here is key, because the Mason also vows to obey the Moral Law. If a Mason acts in an immoral manner, he ipso facto has violated his obligation; that being the case, he is guilty of unmasonic conduct, and can be expelled. Therefore, such a member is not "worthy".

With that being said, how can any Mason be believed or trusted, especially when confronted with questions about Freemasonry?

The very reason that Masons tend to trust each other so much is because each has formalized his commitment to practicing in the Moral Law by taking a vow to do so when he was initiated. In the First Degree, the Four Cardinal Virtues of Masonry (Temperance, Truth, Fortitude, and Prudence) are explained to the Candidate, and he vows to practice them. Since a Mason is sworn to Truth, there exists a deeper bond between Masons and truth than exists between those who have not taken such a vow.

With that being said, why is this site filled with Masons who respond at every chance to anyone questioning it? If I was part of a brotherhood with completely innocent intentions, I surely wouldn't care what people are saying about it, because there is nothing evil to be revealed no matter what theories they come up with?

Of course there isn't. But this entire website is, after all, about denying ignorance. But in any case, there are many good discussions on this forum that are serious, it's not only conspiracy theories.

I, myself, am also a Christian, as well as a history teacher and a Freemason. Perhaps it is the teacher in me, but I tend to correct people when they are clearly misinformed about a topic which they think they are informed about. As a Christian yourself, I would hope you would defend your faith if it came under attack, as most Christians would, especially if someone is clearly giving misinformation relating to that which you know is fact. For example, there are many misinformed people who post "opinions" on this site, which are based on false information (regarding Freemasonry).I responded, for example, to a gentleman who posted information about what went on at a Masonic Third Degree cermony. I had just been initiated a Third Degree Mason, and told him he was wrong. Like the few people I have responded to on this site, he was not happy to be informed he was wrong.

Originally posted by kwbanner
I, myself, am also a Christian, as well as a history teacher and a Freemason. Perhaps it is the teacher in me, but I tend to correct people when they are clearly misinformed about a topic which they think they are informed about. As a Christian yourself, I would hope you would defend your faith if it came under attack, as most Christians would, especially if someone is clearly giving misinformation relating to that which you know is fact. For example, there are many misinformed people who post "opinions" on this site, which are based on false information (regarding Freemasonry).I responded, for example, to a gentleman who posted information about what went on at a Masonic Third Degree cermony. I had just been initiated a Third Degree Mason, and told him he was wrong. Like the few people I have responded to on this site, he was not happy to be informed he was wrong.

What's more, I sometimes feel the need to protect that which I love when it comes under attack. Aside from being misinformed, some of the things some people post is downright slander and, just like someone saying something bad about my mom, I will defend it until the death.

Originally posted by LogoWatch
I want to ask you something.

Since Freemasonry is a brotherhood, its quite obvious that one of the oaths you take is to protect and help another Mason at all costs, otherwise there would be no fundamental point to this "brotherhood".

With that being said, how can any Mason be believed or trusted, especially when confronted with questions about Freemasonry?

With that being said, why is this site filled with Masons who respond at every chance to anyone questioning it? If I was part of a brotherhood with completely innocent intentions, I surely wouldn't care what people are saying about it, because there is nothing evil to be revealed no matter what theories they come up with?

You don't see me defending Christianity on from people who question it. I have no reason to, because my actions are innocent and their opinions are just that, opinions.

The oath does not state to protect at all costs, it specifically excludes a series of legal violations such as treason , felony etc.

How can any mason be trusted ? well like any other form of evidence by the preponderance of the evidence. Examine the answers given by myself on this board ( England ) and then Masonic Light ( America) you will find the answers to be the same, maybe a slightly different emphasis here and there but the core answer will be the same. Then check some of the other Masons and their answers. It is difficult to get a bunch of crooks to tell the same tale over and over and still get the same answer.

I will defend Freemasonry and Christianity, why? because to do nothing is to allow the purveyors of evil the right to promote their corruption without challenge. Ask yourself, did Christ and the apostles allow the corrupters to go un challenged, of course not. They made the ultimate sacrifice to ensure you have the luxury of holding your Christian view without stain.

I actively defend accusation against Freemasons from Child abuse to murder to corruption. In five years I have never been presented with any evidence that would stand up in court.

Find evidence and present it and I will find a 100 Masons who will stand with you to bring down any corrupt Mason.

Originally posted by LogoWatch
I want to ask you something.

Since Freemasonry is a brotherhood, its quite obvious that one of the oaths you take is to protect and help another Mason at all costs, otherwise there would be no fundamental point to this "brotherhood".

This is not the fundamental point to this fraternity. Maybe a bit more research would aid in you answering your own question.

With that being said, how can any Mason be believed or trusted, especially when confronted with questions about Freemasonry?

The same as how can any politician be trusted about his aims, any clergy be trusted when answering questions on his faith, in essence how can anyone be trusted, it is not just Freemasons.

With that being said, why is this site filled with Masons who respond at every chance to anyone questioning it?

Why is this site filled with Christians who defend their faith, why is this site full of believers who defend the fact that aliens do exist. Why have you come to this site a posted your opinion? Your own answer will answer the others.

If I was part of a brotherhood with completely innocent intentions, I surely wouldn't care what people are saying about it, because there is nothing evil to be revealed no matter what theories they come up with?

You have answered your own worry. Freemasonry does not defend itself. It states it does not feel the requirement to defend claims that are not based in fact. It is merely some members who try to educate the masses. Freemasonry is global, has millions and millions of member. The amount posting here would not even come close to one percent of the total.

You don't see me defending Christianity on from people who question it. I have no reason to, because my actions are innocent and their opinions are just that, opinions.

But many Christians do. Does this mean there is something to hide? No it doesn't. Apply your lines of thinking to Christianity, apply your own answers to that of Freemasonry. It will not be much different, other than you are part of one and don't lie about it. Have a little faith...

Interested to read your response.

[edit on 22-1-2005 by LogoWatch]

[edit on 22-1-2005 by LogoWatch]

Originally posted by LogoWatch
That makes no sense. How could Freemasonary be any kind of brotherhood, if you're not supposed to protect brothers at all costs?

Same here. I never took an oath to protect a fellow Freemason "at all costs".

Something else that might interest you: one of the major founding principles that Freemasonry is based on is "Truth". It's not a word that is just mentioned on the side. It is what we call a "Grand Principle". To me, that Truth not only means the truth found in God but also the truth which encompasses everything else too.
I would therefore be breaking my bond to Freemasonry if I told a lie about the Order or another Freemason.


[edit on 24-1-2005 by Leveller]

Durring our obligation, our "Tools" teach us that we are to keep our actions well guided with all mankind. In fact no where masonicaly have I ever heard that someone should treat "Brothers" better then you would anyone else. Actually quite the contrary.

Originally posted by billmcelligott
Examine the answers given by myself on this board ( England ) and then Masonic Light ( America) you will find the answers to be the same, maybe a slightly different emphasis here and there but the core answer will be the same. Then check some of the other Masons and their answers. It is difficult to get a bunch of crooks to tell the same tale over and over and still get the same answer.

Interesting that you brought this up. I have to concur completely. When I first began to educate myself on Masonry, I sent a question to eight different Masons here at ATS in U2U. I wanted to start to gain an understanding about Masonry in general and thought that 8 different opinions would give me a good starting point.
To my surprise all 8 Masons answered the question in the same way. I didn't get 8 opinions, I got one answer (8 answers which contained the same "core.")

No matter what one may personally think about Masons, I think that in my (admittedly limited) experience I have to vouch for them all being on the same page. There is something to be said about this type of consistency.

[edit on 1/25/05 by wellwhatnow]

As a Mason, if someone posted the details of ANY ritual it seems to me, being one who knows what lengths people go to practice the art of deception, you should NOT tell them they are wrong.

By doing so, you are in fact revealing a secret of Masonry, even if you are saying it is different from stated.

Its my opinion that THOSE in charge of Masonry believe necessary evil IS good.

Originally posted by akilles
As a Mason, if someone posted the details of ANY ritual it seems to me, being one who knows what lengths people go to practice the art of deception, you should NOT tell them they are wrong.

Well, nowadays the ritual itself is hardly a secret. I don't believe that many of our Grand Lodges look upon it that way either. Many Freemasons, from Pike to Lomas have put the ritual on paper and made it available to the public. There are many websites that contain it too.
As for not correcting people when they use ritual in their argument? There's a danger there. Some of the most vicious anti-masons like to twist it and make accusations of Satanism and corruption. Some quesions have to be answered, no matter how painful. I also took an oath to defend the Craft against slander.
Of course, in an ideal world, we wouldn't have to discuss our Freemasonry in this way at all - people could find out for themselves what Freemasonry is about without reading lies. But it's not like that. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people out there telling lies about the Order and displaying the type of hatred that would literally get them locked up if they showed the same sort of illogical, open hatred for any other section of society. To some, hating Freemasons is envogue. They are fanatical. And no lie, however big, however despicable, is outside of their capability.

Who is more guilty - the man who dispels those lies or the man who does nothing and lets those lies be believed by all?

Originally posted by LogoWatch

With that being said, how can any Mason be believed or trusted, especially when confronted with questions about Freemasonry?

A Mason can't be trusted when confronted by a non-member. The secrets are to be concealed and not revealed.

You don't see me defending Christianity on from people who question it. I have no reason to, because my actions are innocent and their opinions are just that, opinions.

I don't believe that. If someone was attack your religious belief. You would became very angry, becuase you fundamental belief regarding life itself is being challenged.

Originally posted by Osirisrisen


A Mason can't be trusted when confronted by a non-member. The secrets are to be concealed and not revealed.



I don't believe that. If someone was attack your religious belief. You would became very angry, becuase you fundamental belief regarding life itself is being challenged.

Your logic is quite flawed.

Many people attack my beliefs. Unless that person holds personal importance, I simply shrug them off. How is my belief system endangered if some ignorant inbred turd off the street attack which he cannot fathom? Only if someone who actually matters to me attacks my beliefs will I defend.

This is an internet message board however. the purpose of this site isnt to bash Masons and tell the world about their baby eating virgin sacrificing practices and let such statements lay at that. Its about debate. So of course Masons on this site are going to come to defense of their organization. Thats what this place is about. two way discussion and debates.

The internet and the real world are two totally different places. Understand this.

So far, after examining the evidence, its my humble opinion Masons are basically a group of dudes with similar ideas who like to throw barbeques, do charity work, and sometimes dress up in funny hats somewhere in between.

I really dont see any case for them being the doom of humanity.

Originally posted by LogoWatch
With that being said, why is this site filled with Masons who respond at every chance to anyone questioning it?

Let me pose the same question in the reverse back at you.

Why is this site filled with anti-Masons that insist on posting the same criticisms repeatedly at Masonry?
.