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The Paradox of Applying the Typical 2nd Amendment Argument to the Dallas Shootings

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posted on Jul, 8 2016 @ 07:31 AM
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Any time matters or questions regarding the intersection of gun control laws and the Second Amendment arise, the argument is made that the fundamental purpose of the 2nd is to allow citizens to stand up against a tyrannical government and its agents.

There are many Americans who, right or wrong, feel that many local police departments across the country are demonstrating an incomprehensible and repulsive lack of respect for the rule of law and proper law enforcement procedures in apprehending alleged criminals. We call this police brutality, overreach, etc.

The accusation from many Americans is that police and similar law-enforcement agents (as the enforcement arm of the local, State and Federal governments) have basically murdered American citizens while in the process of apprehension of suspected criminals, i.e. those suspected of but not convicting of various levels of crime.

This is not a racial issue. There have been accusations directed at the disproportionate number of Blacks seemingly executed, but, we also have the same kinds of accusations directed at those who have killed White people ... like for example, the situation surrounding the death of LaVoy Finicum in Oregon.

So, we come to my query: if it is revealed that the snipers involved in the Dallas shooting, who pointedly only struck against law-enforcement personnel, are among those that truly believe that there is a universal if not coordinated effort among the various levels of law-enforcement in this country to use their powers to overtly murder individual citizens ... how is this not right in line with the idea of a legitimate "standing against tyranny" response as commonly advocated by opponents of gun control laws? It was obviously a pre-meditated, coordinated effort to intentionally strike at police.

How do we answer this if these individuals were, at least in their own mind, acting proactively to protect the citizens of the United States from well-armed foot soldiers of a overbearing and tyrannical government?

(I would like to request that all members responding do so with logical, reasonable, on-topic posts, backed up where necessary by established facts.)

What say you ATS?
edit on 8-7-2016 by Gryphon66 because: Noted




posted on Jul, 8 2016 @ 07:37 AM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

IF the shooters thought they were acting in defense of nation against a usurpacious government then...

I'm really not sure.

We had a revolution in our nation once before against the English, are there any similarities?

What caused or sparked the American Revolution?


ETA:

I was really asking more of a question. What did the English do which made the colonialists think that it warranted taking up arms.

In my personal opinion, the most effective tool vs a usurpacious government, is mass civil disobedience and non-cooperation.

But I would argue that people have a right to own whatever firearm they want regardless of the "justification".

Guns are not the problem. A firearm is just a tool.

The real issue/problem is that we have a very violent society.

I guess its easier to focus on an inanimate object vs addressing the causes of violence.

edit on 8-7-2016 by gladtobehere because: wording



posted on Jul, 8 2016 @ 07:41 AM
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a reply to: gladtobehere

I'm not immediately aware of similar actions taken by American revolutionaries against the British ... but I'd be willing to bet that there are incidents of "sniper attacks" that could be found.

Excellent point!



posted on Jul, 8 2016 @ 07:43 AM
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First , I would think you had to be able to prove wrongdoing by the government . Something this alleged widespread would have had to come from the very top. And we know who that is.
So , the answer to your query is "no" . Not just no , but hail (hell) to the no

edit on 7/8/16 by Gothmog because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 8 2016 @ 07:43 AM
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There are 300,000,000 people in america and around 1000 are killed by police every year. Most of those are justified but let's include them anyway.
1000 divide by 300 million is .000003%

I know that one wrongful death is to many but I can think of a bunch of ways to die that are more likely to happen than death by cop.



posted on Jul, 8 2016 @ 07:52 AM
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originally posted by: Gothmog
First , I would think you had to be able to prove wrongdoing by the government . Something this alleged widespread would have had to come from the very top. And we know who that is.
So , the answer to your query is "no" . Not just no , but hail (hell) to the no


So ... are you saying that citizens can only stand up against tyranny when it's been proven ... where? In that same government's assumably tyrannical court system? The same court system that backs up the law enforcement in question?

That seems untenable. Are you saying we can only stand up against the Government when it allows us to?



posted on Jul, 8 2016 @ 07:56 AM
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originally posted by: Bluntone22
There are 300,000,000 people in america and around 1000 are killed by police every year. Most of those are justified but let's include them anyway.
1000 divide by 300 million is .000003%

I know that one wrongful death is to many but I can think of a bunch of ways to die that are more likely to happen than death by cop.



That's an interesting observation, but I wonder how relevant it is to the question. I'm not talking about a statistical situation here, I'm talking about the real, heartfelt belief among many Americans that our government (Federal, State and local) is out of control and that it's agents (police and other LEOs) are acting directly against American citizens to unjustly murder them.

I'm not interested, in this question, in whether these police murders are actually unjust, merely that American citizens believe that they are and see this as the "front line action" of a tyrannical government that must be resisted.

Given that many say that the Second Amendment is there PRIMARILY to enable the citizens to keep tyrants in line.



posted on Jul, 8 2016 @ 08:10 AM
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a reply to: Gryphon66


I think it helps show how threatened people really are. The average Joe probably isn't worried about being killed by a cop.
I live in indiana, I don't worry about alligators.
Living in Florida is a different story.

Black men living a criminal lifestyle are likely more worried about cops.

This reminds me of the Muslim issues going around today.
Being killed by a Muslim or a cop are extremely unlikely but that doesn't stop the fear. So using your original idea I can justify killing muslims.



posted on Jul, 8 2016 @ 08:12 AM
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a reply to: Gryphon66
So , you are saying that this stems from "on high" ? Because if you believe they were going against a tyrannical government the answer would yes. Recall , if all the alleged instances are true (and most have been proven in a court of law and the DOJ , you would have to believe that it would at least have to come from the DOJ if not higher up. That would be the tyrannical government . All I see are nutcases looking to further a false cause by committing murder. And that IS NOT justifiable by any reason .Period.



posted on Jul, 8 2016 @ 08:14 AM
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a reply to: Bluntone22

This question is not about race. I provided evidence in the OP that both White and Black people are seen as the targets of police overreach.

The question is also not about Muslims or religion.

The question is about the Dallas shooting by snipers of law enforcement personnel as that relates to the feeling among many that our government has become tyrannical and that one aspect of that tyranny is the murder of citizens by police forces.

I'm very glad to have your input and responses in the thread, but please address the topic.



posted on Jul, 8 2016 @ 08:17 AM
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a reply to: Bluntone22

Excellent point which I have brought up in a number of different threads, this breaks down to about 3 shootings a day by police in a country of 300 million. As you have said most are justified ,gangs kill a significantly higher number of people every year.
edit on Fri20167V201617831 by DonVoigt because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 8 2016 @ 08:18 AM
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originally posted by: Gothmog
a reply to: Gryphon66
So , you are saying that this stems from "on high" ? Because if you believe they were going against a tyrannical government the answer would yes. Recall , if all the alleged instances are true (and most have been proven in a court of law and the DOJ , you would have to believe that it would at least have to come from the DOJ if not higher up. That would be the tyrannical government . All I see are nutcases looking to further a false cause by committing murder. And that IS NOT justifiable by any reason .Period.


Americans don't have the right to use their guns in the defense of themselves and their fellow citizens? Keep in mind that more than the Federal government can be considered "tyrannical" ... apparently the actions of the State police in Oregon are very questionable in the minds of many, as are the actions of city and county cops in Louisiana and Minnesota shooting individuals on their face on the pavement and in their vehicles while reaching for ID.

So, if the shooters prove to be folks who believe that they were taking proactive action against agents of a tyrannical government ... you don't approve of their actions?



posted on Jul, 8 2016 @ 08:19 AM
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originally posted by: DonVoigt
a reply to: Bluntone22

Excellent point which I have brought up in a number of different threads, this breaks down to about 3 shootings a day by police in a country of 300 million. As you have said most are justified ,gangs kill a significantly higher number of people every year.


Again, we're not talking about whether police shootings are justified.

We are talking about whether the Dallas shooters had a right to kill policemen they might have seen as enforcing the will of a tyrannical government under the common argument made about the Second Amendment.



posted on Jul, 8 2016 @ 08:23 AM
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a reply to: Gryphon66


I'm not trying to divert the topic. I'm just saying that I believe the fear of the police is irrational as it is in other aspects such as religious fear.
As for Dallas. Why shoot a beat cop? Why not a high ranking police official or elected person? To me that's like killing a private when you want the general dead. I think the sniper is just getting revenge.



posted on Jul, 8 2016 @ 08:23 AM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Bluntone22

This question is not about race. I provided evidence in the OP that both White and Black people are seen as the targets of police overreach.

The question is also not about Muslims or religion.

The question is about the Dallas shooting by snipers of law enforcement personnel as that relates to the feeling among many that our government has become tyrannical and that one aspect of that tyranny is the murder of citizens by police forces.

I'm very glad to have your input and responses in the thread, but please address the topic.


I think the point is there is nothing about the current situations that would warrant "standing up against tyranny" so it invalidates the argument.

I see the perspective you are bringing forth and it is an interesting question. When does an attack like this go from some looney toon to an actual revolutionary act that the 2nd amendment was designed for? I can't answer that questions, but I know we are no where near it at this point in time.

One man's terrorists is another's hero. All depends on which side you are on.



posted on Jul, 8 2016 @ 08:28 AM
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a reply to: Edumakated

Perhaps there's nothing in your mind or in the mind of other posters here that warrants standing against tyranny, and technically speaking, I've asked a question not made an argument.

I absolutely agree with your assessment about one man's terrorist is another man's hero and that perception depends on "which side you are on."

We are looking here though, at intent. I am offering a hypothetical that the Dallas shooters believed they were standing against a tyrannical government that sponsors seemingly random murders/assassinations of regular citizens on the streets (and beside the highways) of this country.

I don't have any evidence that was their belief, I am saying "What if ... " and bringing that into conjunction with the very common statement that the basis of the Second Amendment is to stand against tyranny.

I do appreciate your input and look forward to what you have to say.
edit on 8-7-2016 by Gryphon66 because: Spelling



posted on Jul, 8 2016 @ 08:30 AM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

One of the shooters said "They wanted to kill White people, specifically, White police officers". This was a racial issue/attack. I do not condone this type of cowardice.

www.reuters.com...



"The suspect said he was upset about Black Lives Matter," said Brown, who is black. "He said he was upset about the recent police shootings. The suspect said he was upset at white people. The suspect stated that he wanted to kill white people, especially white officers."

edit on 8-7-2016 by DAVID64 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 8 2016 @ 08:30 AM
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Interesting approach.

If the intent of the 2nd is to allow individuals the right to protect themselves from what they believe to be tyrannical government, and that was the driving force behind those shooters in Dallas, are we not required to consider their act within the protections of the constitution?

On the other hand, if we would not consider that argument and simply charged them with murder, does that not give weight to the argument that the 2nd is not a right of the citizens to protect themselves from tyrannical government, but instead a right to help protect the government itself?



posted on Jul, 8 2016 @ 08:33 AM
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originally posted by: DAVID64
a reply to: Gryphon66

One of the shooters said "They wanted to kill White people, specifically, White police officers". This was a racial issue/attack. I do not condone this type of cowardice.


So you have a citation for this?

I would appreciate it.



posted on Jul, 8 2016 @ 08:33 AM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

Added it to my reply



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