Revelation 17...???

a reply to: NOTurTypical
Your argument regarding the word "firstborn" is already addressed in the videos, but a more detailed discussion about it is in the videos that I didn't link about Colossians 1:15 (because I had already linked so many videos). Evolutionists do this as well, they bring up an argument, someone responds, then they're quiet (or use a variation on "nuh-uh...") and when the next person comes along (or a little later) they just repeat the same argument again without addressing the response and why the argument is dishonest and deceptive, sometimes containing misleading half-truths (not the whole story promoting ignorance regarding the complete picture in the process*) depending on which exact argument we're talking about (in this case Colossians 1:15 is related to that change and deception from "of" to "over", as in preeminence "over", you used "greatest born" instead of preeminence but the argument is more of the same as in the videos below). * = see end of this comment

Btw, you have presented no logical evidence or reasonable argument for why the Greek word that has been translated to "firstborn" at Colossians 1:15 in many bible translations including the KJV supposedly means "greatest born" in Colossians 1:15 (which you somehow still avoided to claim as I just spelled it out, it looked more of a suggestion for people to think that way about it). I have very little or no logical reason to believe your word on it (or that suggestive way of thinking about Col.1:15) because you haven't given me one; whereas in the videos there is a lot of evidence discussed why the bible means what it says: "firstborn of all creation". And now you know one more reason why so many people on ATS try to discredit Paul: cause he clarifies a lot about the relationship between Jesus and his God and Father Jehovah.

Jesus is the firstborn OF all creation, if he's "of" all creation, he's part of creation, no amount of playing around with interpretations of what "firstborn" supposedly means is going to change that, the Greek clearly uses the word for "of". This verse is not speaking of Jesus' preeminence "over" creation or being the greatest born (even though he is as is evident from the rest of the bible).
Pay close attention at 4:59 where most of what I discussed above is addressed (mind the wrong use of the term "creator" similar to "co-creator" in the previous video with the title "The Created Messiah...", Jason Beduhn gets that one wrong as well, but that's a bit of a side-issue):

Here's someone who used preeminence (and preeminent or "first in rank") instead of "greatest born". It also discusses your examples regarding David and Isaac:


I also linked comments in a thread about the phrase "the image of God" before in this thread that are about Colossians 1:15 where both the terms "firstborn of all creation" and "the image of God" are used (and your argument addressed). Here's even more you probably won't respond to as you go through your cards the way evolutionists go through their arguments that have been responded to over and over why they don't work and why they're even deceptive (sometimes deliberately depending on the person using it, also related to the concept of "willful ignorance"):






The videos below contain some helpful reminders regarding how to discuss difficult subjects such as these and remain honest both with others as well as ourselves:


From my comment in the thread "What is knowledge?"

The original-language words rendered “understanding” can refer to comprehension of a rather simple kind or can describe a full and profound realization of the inner nature, underlying reasons, and significance of complex matters. Insight, discernment, and perception are all closely connected to understanding.
...
Relationship to Knowledge and Wisdom. Understanding must be based on knowledge, and it works with knowledge, though it is itself more than mere knowledge. The extent and worth of one’s understanding is measurably affected by the quantity and quality of one’s knowledge.
...
The “understanding heart is one that searches for knowledge”; it is not satisfied with a mere superficial view but seeks to get the full picture. (Pr 15:14) ... see KNOWLEDGE.

a reply to: whereislogic

Are you a JW?

a reply to: whereislogic

Read Isaiah 44:6-8 and tell me who is speaking there, who is the first and the last? Who is saying besides Him there is no other God?

Now read Revelation 21:6 and tell me, who is the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last? Who is that?

Now read Revelation 22:12-13 and tell me who is the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last? Who is that?

By this point it's clear that the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, and besides Him there is no God is in fact Jehovah God. Clearly it is based on Isaiah 44. But you have a problem now. In Revelation 22:16 the Alpha and Omega says "I am Jesus.." and in Revelation chapter 1 you have the Alpha and Omega speaking to John, so it's Jehovah God as you would say, and is correct, but whoops, what does the Alpha and Omega says in chapter 1 verse 18 of Revelation? It says He died and lives again, can you tell me when Jehovah God died and rose again? Tell me when Jehovah God ever died, tell me.

a reply to: whereislogic

Originally posted by whereislogic
My own threads have the most evidence and reasons why I think many who refer to themselves as "Christians" have been deceived and are therefore erronuously doing so while still being part of Babylon the Great (or their way of thinking is shaped by it and not God's word: the bible). Their intentions of being "Christians" may be very sincere (allthough I've also run across plenty of evidence to show the other type, the hypocrites, who are not sincere; for example those who lie on purpose and are incorrigible when you point out how to recognize a particular lie or deception).

The extract that you posted in this post, talked about how Christianity has become corrupted in various ways, one of those ways is through Pagan influences etc…With your stance being that the Christian Religion that you belong too ((Jehovah Witnesses) doesn’t follow any Pagan influences…and is therefore is not part of the false belief system i.e. the Harlot…

You see, according to you, ALL other Christian denominations have been deceived, except yours!!!

But the Christian Religion that you belong to could still be argued to be following certain Pagan aspects too. Such as “Blood Sacrifices” which were practiced by the Pagans; Romans used to sacrifice animals to the various Gods that they believed in, and Jesus is of course regarded as a blood sacrifice. Pagan Gods also died and resurrected from the dead…Also Hell is Pagan influence as well, even if your beliefs teaches that it’s really “eternal destruction” rather than “eternal torment” etc…

If you're saying that Pagan influence emerged from the founding of the early RCC and that this has influenced ALL of Christendom, then why stop at just certain Pagan elements and not others…where is the logic…???


- JC

a reply to: whereislogic


When you have the free time:


SCRIPTURES SUPPORTING THE TRINITY IN THE BIBLE

Who raised Jesus from the dead?
The Father (Rom 6:4, Acts 3:26, I Thes 1:10)
The Son (John 2:19-21, 10:17-18),
The Spirit (Rom 8:11) or
God (Heb 13:20,Acts13:30,17:31)

Who is God?
The Father (Eph 4:6)
The Son (Tit 2:13, John 1:1, 20:28, 9:35-37)
The Spirit (Gen 1:2, Ps 104:30) or
God (Gen 1:1, Heb 11:3)

Who saves mankind?
The Father (I Pet 1:3)
The Son (John 5:21, 4:14)
The Spirit (John 3:6, Tit 3:5) or
God (I John 3:9)

Who justifies man?
The Father (Jer 23:6, II Cor 5:19)
The Son (Rom 5:9, 10:4, II Cor 5:19,21)
The Spirit (I Cor 6:11, Gal 5:5) or
God (Rom 45:6, 9:33)

Who sanctifies man?
The Father (Jude 1)
The Son (Tit 2:14)
The Spirit (I Pet 1:2) or
God (Ex 31:13)

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Mike Heiser has a good lecture of 2nd temple though on the two powers God Head which NT writers would have been familiar with .It was a small step for them to consider the Triune God Head .

a reply to: NOTurTypical
Click and you shall find

Too many videos at once? Your rethorical questions (arguments) are discussed in the videos I shared earlier starting with the titles:

"Humble yourselves...." and "Jesus is NOT the ALPHA AND OMEGA".
I am not a member of any organized religion, but this isn't about me anyway. If those videos are not helpful enough for you, the channel those videos came from has more videos on the same subject. Do you want me to track them down and link them for you?
Here's something in the meantime:

Alpha and Omega

Trinity

...(1) At Revelation 1:8, its owner is said to be God, the Almighty. In verse 11 according to KJ, that title is applied to one whose description thereafter shows him to be Jesus Christ. But scholars recognize the reference to Alpha and Omega in verse 11 to be spurious, and so it does not appear in RS, NE, JB, NAB, Dy. (2) Many translations of Revelation into Hebrew recognize that the one described in verse 8 is Jehovah, and so they restore the personal name of God there. See NW, 1984 Reference edition. (3) Revelation 21:6, 7 indicates that Christians who are spiritual conquerors are to be ‘sons’ of the one known as the Alpha and the Omega. That is never said of the relationship of spirit-anointed Christians to Jesus Christ. Jesus spoke of them as his ‘brothers.’ (Heb. 2:11; Matt. 12:50; 25:40) But those ‘brothers’ of Jesus are referred to as “sons of God.” (Gal. 3:26; 4:6) (4) At Revelation 22:12, TEV inserts the name Jesus, so the reference to Alpha and Omega in verse 13 is made to appear to apply to him. But the name Jesus does not appear there in Greek, and other translations do not include it. (5) At Revelation 22:13, the Alpha and Omega is also said to be “the first and the last,” which expression is applied to Jesus at Revelation 1:17, 18. Similarly, the expression “apostle” is applied both to Jesus Christ and to certain ones of his followers. But that does not prove that they are the same person or are of equal rank, does it? (Heb. 3:1) So the evidence points to the conclusion that the title “Alpha and Omega” applies to Almighty God, the Father, not to the Son.

Hebrews 3:1:
Consequently, holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling,* consider the apostle and high priest whom we acknowledge*—Jesus.

1st * = Or “invitation.”
2nd * = Or “confess.”

Responding or basing your argumentation on the responses above to all your arguments or cards that you're cycling through would be more useful to me than firing of questions for which the answers are freely available to a person searching for answers rather than trying to argue with them and simply denying the answers when they are given (or moving on to the next without acknowledging any form of deception in those who are keeping the answers to your rhetorical questions away from you and others; influencing your attitude and behaviour to not look into it further or deny, dismiss the answers when given). I hope I worded all that stuff cautiously enough not to offend you. That's certainly not my intention with it.

Oh btw, in this line or view you can find the deception that has been taught to you:

But you have a problem now. In Revelation 22:16 the Alpha and Omega says "I am Jesus.."

It's not the Alpha and Omega saying that, the 2nd video I mentioned explains that thoroughly by quoting the context. Who is speaking is changing in that chapter a couple of times. Details and evidence for who is saying what is again in the video already. I don't see the point in responding to it if you don't point it out as if the evidence that it's not the Alpha and Omega saying "I am Jesus" doesn't even exist. And state it as if it's so and I supposedly have a problem because of that.

Revelation 1:18 is also not the Alpha and Omega speaking. Here another trick is used to conflate the term "the first and the last" with "the Alpha and Omega". And also thoroughly explained in the videos in what sense Jesus meant "I am the First and the Last, 18 and the living one, and I became dead, but look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of the Grave." And why he didn't claim to be "the Alpha and Omega".

a reply to: whereislogic

Why do you keep responding with videos? Can't you vocalize your own beliefs and back them up with scripture? It's pretty weird I keep asking you questions and supplying the scripture to support and you ignore them and post videos. I asked simple questions, you could look up the verses in the questions and reply in relatively no time at all, I don't have the time to watch hours of videos to get responses to questions it took me 30 seconds to ask you.

a reply to: whereislogic

And you're wrong, in Reveltion chapter 22 Jesus is speaking and says He is the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last. Unless you are using a weird translation that alters that.

a reply to: the2ofusr1

Oh dude, the Jewish commentaries before Jesus was born said the coming Moshiyach Ben David would have divine attributes of God, especially Isaiah 9:6. The Jewish commentaries after Christ rejected this idea because of the teachings of the Christians that Jesus Christ was the Lord. And it was a done deal after the Council of Jamnia in 90 AD that their OT scriptures were codified into the Messoretic Text and the Tenakh was "de-Jesused".

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: whereislogic

Why do you keep responding with videos? Can't you vocalize your own beliefs and back them up with scripture? It's pretty weird I keep asking you questions and supplying the scripture to support and you ignore them and post videos. I asked simple questions, you could look up the verses in the questions and reply in relatively no time at all, I don't have the time to watch hours of videos to get responses to questions it took me 30 seconds to ask you.

Yeah, I know why you're asking your questions...the answers are right there in front of you though. But I'm also familiar with the routine of claiming someone isn't answering at all. I described that as "deny, dismiss the answers when given" in my previous comment.

Click and you shall find (that also counts for the 2 links I gave in my previous comment, entitled "Alpha and Omega" and "Trinity", which leads you straight to your line of argumentation and the response which is also part of my response). You could cherry-pick something from there to argue about (quoting from it), at this point, I'm not making any promises as to how I will respond (I don't see the problem or difference of telling the same things a person doesn't want to hear in either video or textual format).

a reply to: whereislogic

Lol, it's pretty rude when someone is trying to have a dialogue with you and is asking you questions and you can't bother to reply, but direct them to videos.

So be it. God bless you.

a reply to: NOTurTypical
Apparently a certain condition of the mind prevents some people from looking at either text or video or links to written articles or books in pdf format discussing the same verses in Revelation. Whether they'd be direct short answers or more detailed ones.

Context as discussed is also in the video that explains in more detail why a person can see straight from the text that it isn't Jesus who is saying he's the Alpha and Omega in chapter 21 and 22 if you keep track of who is speaking:

21:9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls that were full of the seven last plagues came and said to me: “Come, and I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” 10 So he carried me away in the power of the spirit to a great and lofty mountain, and he showed me...
22:1 And he showed me...
6 He said to me: “These words are faithful and true; yes, Jehovah, the God who inspired the prophets, has sent his angel to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. 7 Look! I am coming quickly. Happy is anyone observing the words of the prophecy of this scroll.”
8 Well I, John, was the one hearing and seeing these things. When I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing me these things. 9 But he tells me:...
[the angel speaking for Jehovah, noticed the phrase "Look! I am coming quickly"?]
...10 He also tells me: “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this scroll, for the appointed time is near. 11 Let the one who is unrighteous continue in unrighteousness, and let the filthy one continue in his filth; but let the righteous one continue in righteousness, and let the holy one continue in holiness.

12 “‘Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to repay each one according to his work. 13 I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga,* the first and the last, the beginning and the end. [* = Or “the A and the Z.” Alpha and Omega are the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet.]

[The angel John was talking about is still saying this as a mouthpiece for Jehovah just like he says "Look! I am coming quickly" in verse 7.
Then in verse 16 the one who is speaking changes which is indicated by:]

16 “‘I, Jesus,...

a reply to: whereislogic

Posting videos is no way to have a proper discussion... especially religious ones which are always long winded and sooo boring...

Why not just discuss your points with NuT?

originally posted by: whereislogic
a reply to: NOTurTypical
Apparently a certain condition of the mind prevents some people from looking at either text or video or links to written articles or books in pdf format discussing the same verses in Revelation. Whether they'd be direct short answers or more detailed ones.

So now I have a mental shortfall because I find it rude you won't respond to questions I ask you, but instead direct me to videos? Why don't we just not say anything to eachother and just make eachother watch videos?

No, because that's twice as dumb.

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: whereislogic

Why not just discuss your points with NuT?

I am and have responded and answered him. Having fun?

a reply to: whereislogic

Always...

Trinity discussions are usually fascinating... but they almost always end in name calling

NuT isn't that type though...

a reply to: NOTurTypical
2 Timothy 4:3,4:

For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled. 4 They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories.

Have fun with your own selection of videos and website links then as you diss their research value in conversations that are stuck on the surface cause someone doesn't want to skip a few steps in the standard lines of argumentation and someone else is hoping (perhaps a futile hope) another will go along with that intent of skipping a bit by doing their own research first regarding their own arguments.

Your attitude towards videos, links, comments and responses including bible quotations and biblical dictionaries, encyclopedias, etc. that aren't tickling your ears isn't going to stop me from posting them and responding to the claims made by Trinitarians or anyone else who denies the Father whose name is Jehovah (or spreads misinformation about him, inadvertently or otherwise).

Videos save a lot of time typing and allow for other options (such as showing pictures of very old documents where one can verify what is being said about it). They especially save a lot of time typing when responding to those for whom you almost type it all out and still they claim you didn't respond to the questions asked. Or make a comment about you spending too much time typing or your comments being too long (another standard routine on the internet: TLDR, everything to promote ignorance and darkness).

a reply to: whereislogic

All that typing and guess what, Revelation 22 still says Jesus is the alpha and omega, the first and the last. And I just looked at Revelation 1:18 and it still says the first and the last was dead and lives again.

When did Jehovah God die and rise again?

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: whereislogic

Revelation 22 still says Jesus is the alpha and omega, the first and the last.

It doesn't and I just gave you the details how you can tell. You're just in denial what it actually says and apparently want to play this nuh-uh circle for a while longer. I don't.

Similarly, it's not the Alpha and the Omega, Jehovah, speaking at Revelation 1:18. Also clear from the text, no interpretation required (also already gave the reasons why I can tell, you haven't given me any logical reason to think otherwise).

"Jehovah the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob" (Exodus 3:15) cannot die. Does that answer your latest question? Here are 2 simple questions for you:

1. Can Jehovah, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the Alpha and the Omega, die?
2. Did Jesus die?

Revelation 1:12 I turned to see who was speaking with me, and when I turned, I saw seven golden lampstands,+ 13 and in the midst of the lampstands someone like a son of man,+ clothed in a garment that reached down to the feet and wearing a golden sash around his chest. 14 Moreover, his head and his hair were white as white wool, as snow, and his eyes were like a fiery flame,+ 15 and his feet were like fine copper+ when glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars,+ and out of his mouth a sharp, long, two-edged sword+ was protruding, and his countenance* was like the sun when it shines at its brightest.+ 17 When I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet.

And he laid his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First+ and the Last,...

he = someone like a son of man, not "the Alpha and the Omega", I already gave details about verse 11 and the phrase "Alpha and Omega":

At Revelation 1:8, its owner is said to be God, the Almighty. In verse 11 according to KJ, that title is applied to one whose description thereafter shows him to be Jesus Christ. But scholars recognize the reference to Alpha and Omega in verse 11 to be spurious, and so it does not appear in RS, NE, JB, NAB, Dy. (2) Many translations of Revelation into Hebrew recognize that the one described in verse 8 is Jehovah, and so they restore the personal name of God there. See NW, 1984 Reference edition. (3) Revelation 21:6, 7 indicates that Christians who are spiritual conquerors are to be ‘sons’ of the one known as the Alpha and the Omega. That is never said of the relationship of spirit-anointed Christians to Jesus Christ. Jesus spoke of them as his ‘brothers.’ (Heb. 2:11; Matt. 12:50; 25:40) But those ‘brothers’ of Jesus are referred to as “sons of God.” (Gal. 3:26; 4:6)

All throughout chapter 1 John is making a distinction between God and Jesus. And it's pretty clear who is speaking when if you read an honest translation that doesn't add "Alpha and Omega" in verse 11.

Revelation 1:4: John to the seven congregations+ that are in the province of Asia:
May you have undeserved kindness and peace from “the One who is and who was and who is coming,”+ and from the seven spirits+ that are before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,”...6 and he made us to be a kingdom,+ priests+ to his God and Father...
[John speaking up until verse 8 where clearly John is describing what someone else says or has said; unless you want to suggest John is claiming to be the Alpha and the Omega?]
8 “I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”[clearly not John saying "I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga"]
9 I John, ... [more stuff from John]
12 I turned to see who was speaking with me,... [John describing things again and then he goes on to describe who is speaking to him then and in verse 11, no relation to verse 8]