Revelation 17...???

a reply to: Akragon

Two persons are speaking in unison in that verse, both are attributed as YHWH. "His redeemer/Lord of Hosts" (Angels) is Yeshua. Both simultaneously claim the title of First and the last and besides me (singular) there is no God (plural noun of El, used in singular context).

Conundrum indeed!

a reply to: Akragon

Originally posted by Joecroft
Man…how do you end up in these threads lol

Originally posted by Akragon
They slip off the topic and i slide in...

LOL

I see, so you’re one of those hang around until the Trinity debate kicks in…type of guys….

Originally posted by Akragon
Bad habbit

Yeah, not a good look for Nunn's lol

Originally posted by Akragon
The text is using the name Jehovah, the tetragrammaton…and that phrase “I am the first and the last” is commonly used to denote God…

Originally posted by Akragon
Right... said god is saying to Israel, He is the first and the last etc etc...

Ok correct me if I’m wrong, but are you saying it’s referring to the King who ruled in that particular time period…?


- JC

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Seems to violate "The Shema" doesn't it...

Theres no reason to believe that two are speaking in unison in said verse...

One shall say, I am the Lord's; and another shall call himself by the name of Jacob; and another shall subscribe with his hand unto the Lord, and surname himself by the name of Israel.

6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.

Clearly, said entity is speaking to "Israel"... some translations seem to be missing a comma in the appropriate place

a reply to: Joecroft

I see, so you’re one of those hang around until the Trinity debate kicks in…type of guys….

LOL no no...

I follow all the religious threads... but sometimes i happen to jump in when i feel the need to voice my opinion, for what its worth...

Ok correct me if I’m wrong, but are you saying it’s referring to the King who ruled in that particular time period…?

Sounds about right... christians seem to have a habit of not reading the entire chapter to find meaning... they stop when they find what they want to find.

a reply to: Akragon

The Shema is a contradiction in the text, in the Bible any time a false God is mentioned it uses a singular noun. Whenever YHWH is mentioned as "God" is uses a Hebrew plural form of El but it's always in singular context.

Elohyim is the plural of El, but it's used in a singular context. It's a grammatical error every time. It would be like me saying in English:

"Today I went to the Ford dealer and I bought a brand new trucks." (Singular context, plural noun)

a reply to: NOTurTypical

As far as i know Elohyim can be either singular or plural... but in any case it is NEVER used to denote "three"

And most especially not three in one...

a reply to: Akragon

Originally posted by Joecroft
Ok correct me if I’m wrong, but are you saying it’s referring to the King who ruled in that particular time period…?

Originally posted by Akragon

Sounds about right... christians seem to have a habit of not reading the entire chapter to find meaning... they stop when they find what they want to find.

Sorry to drag you off topic lol

But why would the King who ruled at that time, be using the sacred name of God for himself…?

And the “his redeemer part” part is given the same exact name…

An even the phrase at the end “there is no God beside me”, is a strange thing for the actual king of Israel (the man who rule back then) to have said about himself…don’t you think…?

- JC

a reply to: Akragon

It's a plural of El (god, singular). The sentence structure where it is used for only the true God it is a singular context. When it is used of false gods the sentence structure is a plural. That's a fact of the text, same plural word, but when talking about YHWH is a singular context, when false gods a plural context.

Example, a seraph is a single Angel, seraphyim is more than one seraph.

a reply to: Joecroft

Sorry to drag you off topic lol

But why would the King who ruled at that time, be using the sacred name of God for himself…?

And the “his redeemer part” part is given the same exact name…

An even the phrase at the end “there is no God beside me”, is a strange thing for the actual king of Israel (the man who rule back then) to have said about himself…don’t you think…?

Pretty sure we're way off topic anyways...

No idea why it would be said... its a "strange" book don't you think? Might be why i love it so much... its mysterious and extremely fascinating!

so i can't answer that, but i can retort with a question

Why would said god be speaking of two or even three entities speaking at once when the religion this book belongs to has no concept of more then one god/lord/YHWH?

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Akragon

It's a plural of El (god, singular). The sentence structure where it is used for only the true God it is a singular context. When it is used of false gods the sentence structure is a plural. That's a fact of the text, same plural word, but when talking about YHWH is a singular context, when false gods a plural context.

Example, a seraph is a single Angel, seraphyim is more than one seraph.

Let US make them in OUR Image...

So that is referring to a false god?

I would tend to agree with that... but

a reply to: Akragon

Let us make man in our image.

The speaker isn't talking to the angels, lol. They cannot create.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Except you just said its only used in the plural when a false god is being mentioned...

The sentence structure where it is used for only the true God it is a singular context. When it is used of false gods the sentence structure is a plural.

a reply to: Akragon

Originally posted by Akragon
Pretty sure we're way off topic anyways...

No idea why it would be said... its a "strange" book don't you think? Might be why i love it so much... its mysterious and extremely fascinating!

Yeah it sure is…that’s why we're here…

Originally posted by Akragon
so i can't answer that, but i can retort with a question

Why would said god be speaking of two or even three entities speaking at once when the religion this book belongs to has no concept of more then one god/lord/YHWH?

Answering a question with question ah…you are a tricky one young Jedi!!! lol


Well, they say that Jesus is hidden within the Old Testament scripture’s…one example being proverbs 8 verses 22 to 36…

You see whatever that entity is that’s being brought forth, (just going by the context) it can’t be the LORD God. It has to be some other entity who was the craftsmen at HIS side in the beginning of creation…hence it can’t be LORD God in that context…

And then there’s also verses like this below…

Proverbs 30:4
Who but God goes up to heaven and comes back down? Who holds the wind in his fists? Who wraps up the oceans in his cloak? Who has created the whole wide world? What is his name--and his son's name? Tell me if you know!

See what I mean…


- JC

a reply to: Joecroft

Good stuff right there... very interesting!

Who but God goes up to heaven and comes back down?

Jesus seemed to think it was more then Just God that does such things

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven

reincarnation? Perhaps?

a reply to: Akragon

Originally posted by Akragon
Good stuff right there... very interesting!


Who but God goes up to heaven and comes back down?


Jesus seemed to think it was more then Just God that does such things

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven

reincarnation? Perhaps?

Perhaps; I think reincarnation was definitely a belief in the time period of Jesus…

But what you just posted above, could also be more mystical or deeply esoteric code for something else…IMO


- JC

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: NOTurTypical

Ya

but so does Jesus... lol

Does that make him A cultist too?

I guess we should all be glad that they aren't burning what they call heretics at the stake anymore (after torture). Now it's cultist. In the bible, Christians were also accused of being a sect by opposers, "sect" is a synonym for "cult". Since that first occasion (somewhere in Acts, not gonna look it up now) both "heretic" and "sect/cult" has been used to discredit those who have tried to return to the true teachings of Christ (and the complete bible, both being consistent with eachother, including what people refer to as the OT). But not just to discredit, also to persecute them (and make the flock hate them).

Now it's also "illuminati", "33rd degree freemason", etc. Complete nonsense and deceptive fabrications that make a lot of use of half-truths; not telling the whole story but giving it a propaganda (agenda) spin to make it appear Russel was a 33rd degree Freemason, illuminati, or just had connections with Freemasonry. The latter if they're a little more cautious and cunning, the first 2 are so specific, what, he wasn't 32nd degree?

Pardon the missing pictures below (for that you'd better click the link).

Was Charles Taze Russell a Mason? No, he was not!

Just a few comments from the anti-Watchtower peanut gallery regarding Pastor Russell: Charles Russel the founder of the Witnesses died in 1916 he was buried with a marker a few fe[e]t away by his tomb sculptured as a large pyramid five to six feet high, with the Mason logo embossed on it and remains to this day for all to see. Although putting up a smoke screen by writing articles in the Watchtower magazine that he was the editor of, against the Masons, evidence shows without a doubt he was greatly influenced by them, as well as into Egyptology as can be seen by the design and presentation of his books and the information used. If you do not believe me then check it out. (2) "Why was Charles Taze Russel buried in the Masonic Cemetery, under a pyramid with Templar inscriptions?" (3) "1872 Charles Taze Russell, Founded International Bible Students Association. Forerunner to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. Known as the Jehovah's Witnesses. Was a Knights Templar Mason of York Rite, in Allegheny Pa. Confirmed Mason. Also Russell had a secret Rosicrucian membership with the Quakertown, PA group of Rosicrucian's, as revealed by the pyramid he ordered erected over his grave site." (4) An examination of some of the publications of Charles T. Russell, the founder of the Jehovah's Witnesses, would indicate that he had ties with the Masons. He used Masonic symbols. The Watchtower drawing that graced early publications right up to a couple of decades ago was pure Masonic. Russell was buried under a cross and a crown, again Masonic. Other Masonic symbols were used frequently on his publications.

An urban legend, urban myth, urban tale, or contemporary legend, is a form of modern folklore consisting of stories usually believed by their tellers to be true. As with all folklore and mythology, the designation suggests nothing about the story's veracity, but merely that it is in circulation, exhibits variation over time, and carries some significance that motivates the community in preserving and propagating it. - From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pastor Charles Taze Russell (1852 - 1916) was the founder of Zion's Watch Tower magazine in 1879 and Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society in 1881. He was not the founder of Jehovah’s Witnesses. After his death in 1916 many Bible Students no longer wanted to work with the Watch Tower Society, they wanted to stay with Russell's teachings from 1876 - 1916, these retained the name Bible Students. Other Bible Students wanted to move forward and make new changes so in 1931, they embraced the distinctive name Jehovah’s Witnesses. Worldwide, the Witnesses number well over 7.5 million members. The current Bible Students have no head office, and over the years have split into a number of different factions with only a few thousand members worldwide. The Bible Students of today are not the same as the Bible Students from Pastor Russell's day (1870 - 1916). Many of the current Bible Students will not even fellowship with other Bible Students. For the most part the current Bible Students and Jehovah's Witnesses don't have anything to do with each other.

As for the pyramid and Masons, keep reading: This is what the anti-Watchtower fault-finders do not want you to see. The internet is full of false stories about Pastor Russell, this is just one of them. But you already know that, now don't you? Charles Taze Russell died in 1916, the Pyramid marker was installed in 1921 (5 years after his death), and the The Masonic Temple was built in the mid 1990s, these items have nothing to do with Pastor Russell's grave. The Masonic Temple is not even on the cemetery grounds, it is a different property altogether. In fact, the Rosemont United Cemetery was never a Masonic cemetery. Many do not want you to see the first photo from 1916, showing that Pastor Russell was dead long before the Masonic Temple was built. And others do not want you to see the second photo, because some people teach that Russell is buried "under the Pyramid", or "in the Pyramid", or that the Pyramid is "his grave marker." Now, how can that be, see Russell's headstone, see the Pyramid marker, they are in two different locations, with other graves in between them. The pyramid marker was used as a marker for all (275) of the Watchtower Society burial plots in the Cemetery, nothing more. People visiting the Cemetery could look for the pyramid marker to locate the (275) burial plots. Jehovah’s Witnesses do not revere burial places, but some desire to visit the Watch Tower Society’s burial plot where C. T. Russell was buried.
...
Now let's try this one more time for some of our readers who are a little slow. Some do not want you to see this photo, because they say that Russell is buried "under the Pyramid", or "in the Pyramid", or that the Pyramid is "his grave marker." How can that be, see Russell's headstone (to the left), see the Pyramid marker (to the right), they are in two different locations, with other graves in between them. The pyramid marker was used as a marker for all (275) of the Watchtower Society burial plots in the Cemetery, nothing more. As for the Masonic Temple, should we now assume that every person who is buried in the cemetery must be a Mason? If the Mormons built a temple next to the cemetery I am sure that the Watchtower antagonists would try and say that Russell was a Mormon. Some fault-finders will say anything to sell some books. And it appears that others will believe anything if it makes the Watchtower look bad, but what are the facts?

..
This next comment about Charles Taze Russell not belonging to the Masons is from ex-JW Barbara Anderson. Because some people simply believe what others have told them ...

The article discusses a lot of other aspects of these false claims as well as where truths/facts are twisted into half-truths to paint a picture; motivated by an agenda and supported by propaganda. The stuff described in the article linked at the end of my next comment.

a reply to: Akragon
This is one possible endresult that is fueled by the type of arguments that are used against them (not everything is on video and this is just 1 example of the effect of this form of brainwashing and conditioning people with hate supported by false propagandistic argumentation; which is also used as a barrier for rational respectful conversation, where people aren't looking for something to pound on in your speech or simply not taking you serious on any subject because of prejudice):

I try to avoid talking too much to these types that allow their heads to be filled with propagandistic lies (slander) that easily (and allow it to affect their behaviour that easily). You can't reason with 'm anyway when they get to the point in the video above (or those teaching these people the type of arguments that were used in this thread now as well). Btw, the Orthodox Church is involved in Bulgaria with the people above (they are the teachers of them). They've done this over and over through history (watch my earlier shared video about Newton for example; after the first 8 minutes).

Note in the video below that there is no all-seeing-eye in the capstone of the pyramid marker (as is also sometimes falsely claimed where people often use a picture with just the right shades in the right places to be suggestive to a biased hearer who wants their ears to be tickled, 2 Timothy 4:3,4):

Here's another example from Martin Luther using propaganda (slanderous lies to be specific).
The Manipulation of Information: Awake!—2000

Certainly, the handiest trick of the propagandist is the use of outright lies. Consider, for example, the lies that Martin Luther wrote in 1543 about the Jews in Europe: “They have poisoned wells, made assassinations, kidnaped children . . . They are venomous, bitter, vindictive, tricky serpents, assassins, and children of the devil who sting and work harm.” His exhortation to so-called Christians? “Set fire to their synagogues or schools . . . Their houses [should] also be razed and destroyed.”

A professor of government and social studies who has studied that era says: “Antisemitism has fundamentally nothing to do with the actions of Jews, and therefore fundamentally nothing to do with an antisemite’s knowledge of the real nature of Jews.” He also notes: “The Jews stood for everything that was awry, so that the reflexive reaction to a natural or social ill was to look to its supposed Jewish sources.”

Notice the ending of the video below (the propagandistic flyers and magazines):

Here's a bonus video for those more interested in studying the degrees in Freemasonry and vague sensational profitable (economically, not mentally) stories about the illuminati than the bible (which exposes the real deceptions and how the masses are controlled and set up against eachother by the real ruler of this system of things and the master deceiver that has got you by the balls, especially regarding all that stuff about the Illuminati, Freemasonry and the NWO):

Here's some irony for ye regarding those false accusations about pyramids, occultism, Freemasonry, Illuminati, etc.

Watch the Trinitarian stickers on the foreheads at the end (and a representative symbol for the pope replacing God who is usually in the middle of such Trinitarian symbols):

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Akragon

He said He and His Father were one,...

Which he meant the same way when he prayed to Jehovah who was in heaven at the time (and still is) regarding his disciples (John 17:21 KJV):

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

That's quite a bit more than 3 I hope.

He said if you have seen Him you have seen the Father,...

Not going to type out a transcript of the video below, but it is what I want to say:

and He said He was the I AM.

One step away from writing G-d...

No, he did not say that. And the phrase "I AM" you are thinking about in specific locations in the bible (John...:58, was it chapter 10? And in Exodus) are deceptive translations for making that specific argument. Don't really feel like giving details and evidence again cause it's in one of the videos I shared earlier. Well, I didn't share the video below yet, which makes a short mention of Newgammer using that argument which may possibly help in finding the more detailed video addressed to newgammer on the same channel (which I also haven't shared yet but may have "I AM" in the title in case someone here is curious):

Because of what's mentioned by the Trinitarian Walter Martin in the video above after 1:57 I feel a strong urge to share the video below again and point out how the atheist who made the video below has got it spot on at 6:37 regarding his point #2:

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
He was killed for the crime of blasphemy, making Himself equal with God.

Actually, there's an interesting debate about that that I linked in this comment mentioning some caveats about which parts are worth watching and which things one should watch out for (in terms of not getting distracted with the main points to understand about this subject and those verses or wasting your time on more than an hour of debate, I gave specific timeframes in the comment to save time).

Babylon the Great, one of the main topics of Revelation chapter 17 has been very busy in making sure that the masses do not take the only ones who are accurately exposing her seriously (using accusations towards Freemasonry and the Illuminati in the process for those who want to hear such things).

Revelation 17:15,18 (NW):
15 He said to me: “The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is sitting, mean peoples and crowds and nations and tongues.* [Or “languages.”]

18 And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.”

18:23,24:

23 No light of a lamp will ever shine in you again, and no voice of a bridegroom and of a bride will ever be heard in you again; for your merchants were the top-ranking men of the earth, and by your spiritistic practices all the nations were misled. 24 Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

18:4-8:

4 And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues. 5 For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice* [Or “her crimes.”] to mind. 6 Repay her in the way she treated others, yes, pay her back double for the things she has done; in the cup she has mixed, mix a double portion for her. 7 To the extent that she glorified herself and lived in shameless luxury, to that extent give her torment and mourning. For she keeps saying in her heart: ‘I sit as queen, and I am not a widow, and I will never see mourning.’ 8 That is why in one day her plagues will come, death and mourning and famine, and she will be completely burned with fire, because Jehovah God, who judged her, is strong.

I can't edit my previous comment anymore but I feel like I should mention that my agreement with the atheist video above about the Trinity that starts at 6:37 stops at 7:03 (at least with the way he phrases some things after that regarding that same subject).

Revelation 17:7:

So the angel said to me: “Why is it that you were amazed? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the wild beast that is carrying her and that has the seven heads and the ten horns:

Regarding Revelation 17:9,10:

“This calls for a mind* [Or “for intelligence.”] that has wisdom: The seven heads mean seven mountains, where the woman sits on top. 10 And there are seven kings: Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet arrived; but when he does arrive, he must remain a short while. 11 And the wild beast that was but is not, it is also an eighth king, but it springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction.

I take it I don't have to talk about "the woman" who "sits on top" anymore, but the verse is covered in detail here (7 kingdoms or empires throughout history that Babylon the Great has had control over). Without the background prophecies in Daniel it's a lot more difficult to understand Revelation (and a lot easier to speculate without any regard for consistency with Daniel's prophecies, something very common for those within Babylon the Great who are told to "get out of her"). I don't like the title change but the real title of the documentary should become obvious after clicking: