Revelation 17...???

a reply to: Akragon

I'm not sure I'm following you.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Quite simply...

Jesus didn't teach a triune God.

the whole trinity idea didn't come til much later... Kinda funny that you mentioned shoehorning in another post

a reply to: Akragon

He said He and His Father were one, He said blasphemy against the Holy Spirit won't be forgiven, you can only blaspheme God, He said if you have seen Him you have seen the Father, and He said He was the I AM. He was killed for the crime of blasphemy, making Himself equal with God.

That's 3 persons of the one God.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

He said He and His Father were one,

One essence... Not one and the same

He said blasphemy against the Holy Spirit won't be forgiven, you can only blaspheme God

Ah but that idea has never been clear theres only theories, and i have my own thoughts on said subject.

and He said He was the I AM

Which means he pre-existed this incarnation... nothing more

And he didn't say he was the I AM... He said before Abraham was I AM...

He was killed for the crime of blasphemy, making Himself equal with God.

Said passage was a misunderstanding on the Jews part... he clearly did not consider himself equal to the Father... and says so in three passages in John

That's 3 persons of the one God

Exactly what i meant by shoehorning

a reply to: Akragon

You are right, He didn't say He was the I AM, as in past tense. He is the I AM. A direct reference to God speaking to Moses from the burning bush. Here, I posted this earlier and have it posted on the wall on my profile. Here are several acts of God in the Bible, sometimes it says the Father did it, some places it says the Son did it, other places it says the Holy Spirit did it, and even yet other places it generically says God did it. You can look them up and see for yourself if you want to friend:

SCRIPTURES SUPPORTING THE TRINITY IN THE BIBLE

Who raised Jesus from the dead?
The Father (Rom 6:4, Acts 3:26, I Thes 1:10)
The Son (John 2:19-21, 10:17-18),
The Spirit (Rom 8:11) or
God (Heb 13:20,Acts13:30,17:31)

Who is God?
The Father (Eph 4:6)
The Son (Tit 2:13, John 1:1, 20:28, 9:35-37)
The Spirit (Gen 1:2, Ps 104:30) or
God (Gen 1:1, Heb 11:3)

Who saves mankind?
The Father (I Pet 1:3)
The Son (John 5:21, 4:14)
The Spirit (John 3:6, Tit 3:5) or
God (I John 3:9)

Who justifies man?
The Father (Jer 23:6, II Cor 5:19)
The Son (Rom 5:9, 10:4, II Cor 5:19,21)
The Spirit (I Cor 6:11, Gal 5:5) or
God (Rom 45:6, 9:33)

Who sanctifies man?
The Father (Jude 1),
The Son (Tit 2:14),
The Spirit (I Pet 1:2) or
God (Ex 31:13)

a reply to: NOTurTypical

No need brother i know all the Trinitarian "proof texts" that are in the bible...

Fact remains Jesus didn't teach a trinity, nor was there a trinity in Judaic beliefs

It was a sect that arose well after Jesus and his followers...which won over the battle of the "Nature of God" with violence some 2-3 hundred years later.

Ain't No trinity in the bible... not even the word exists in the book

in fact even the "trinitarian formula" is all but absent...

a reply to: whereislogic

Originally posted by whereislogic
I am not a member of any organized religion, but this isn't about me anyway. If those videos are not helpful enough for you, the channel those videos came from has more videos on the same subject.

So you’re not a “Jehovah's Witness” but you’ve just posted over 10 videos which all contain Jehovah witness theology in them…hmmmm?

Similarly to what I outlined in my last reply to you…you are now in the category of someone who doesn’t belong to any known denomination of Christianity, other than your own unique brand.

Which means not only are you one of a kind, you also believe that only your Christian belief is the true one, and that ALL other Christians are deceived by the false versions of Christianity.

This is even worse than what I pointed out to you in my previous reply…

If the end times happens anytime soon, it’s going to be a lonely place in Heaven for just one guy!!!


- JC

a reply to: Akragon

Not exactly true, before Jesus the Jewish commentaries said the coming Messiah would have divine attributes. The commentaries after Jesus denied that. You should look at what happened to Judaism and their hatred for the Septuagint OT at the Council of Jamnia in 90 AD. Judaism radically changed there, and they adopted a new Tenakh.

a reply to: Joecroft


He has also linked to JW Internet forums

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Not exactly true, before Jesus the Jewish commentaries said the coming Messiah would have divine attributes.

Divine attributes does not make him God my friend...

There were many people that could do the same things He did in the book

that is one "council" i haven't looked into much... Mainly because most don't believe it actually ever happened

a reply to: Akragon

I disagree, Isaiah 9:6 is pretty explicit. Mighty God, Everlasting Father. If you don't want to believe the Trinity, I think you can still be justified if you believe that Jesus is the eternalGod who incarnated in the flesh, that He is the Messiah. It's paramount you get the Christology correct, because both you and I know what John said was the spirit of antichrist.

Why would you not believe he Council of Jamnia happened? It did, in 90 AD. Judaism isn't Mosaic anymore, it's Talmudic. And they codified their Tenakh to "de-Jesus" it, they started to have contempt for the Septuagint OT the Christians were using to teach and preach Jesus is the Msssiah and the Lord.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

I disagree, Isaiah 9:6 is pretty explicit. Mighty God, Everlasting Father.

Sure thats correct.... problem is, every single "name" that is given in said chapter is never given to Jesus...

he wasn't called "ever lasting Father"... In fact he spoke out against calling anyone such a thing, especially himself

he certainly wasn't called Mighty God... thats just silly

Or Emanuel (God with us)

Not a single name was ever attributed to him in that chapter... so that point is Moot

If you don't want to believe the Trinity, I think you can still be justified if you believe that Jesus is the eternal God who incarnated in the flesh, that He is the Messiah.

See, i do believe he was "messiah"... just not God

I don't believe God has a God.... And Jesus had his own God whom he called Father, and attributed everything to HIM... not himself.

It's paramount you get the Christology correct, because both you and I know what John said was the spirit of antichrist.

Sure... Jesus most definately was a real person, not just a spirit as Valentinus argued...

Still wasn't God though...

Like i said, God doesn't have a God.

Similar to the OT entity... Jealous of who?

Said being knew there were others... but put himself on a pedestal believing he was the "most high"

Why would you not believe he Council of Jamnia happened? It did, in 90 AD. Judaism isn't Mosaic anymore, it's Talmudic. And they codified their Tenakh to "de-Jesus" it, they started to have contempt for the Septuagint OT the Christians were using to teach and preach Jesus is the Msssiah and the Lord.

Well thats a good start... why would they de-Jesus it when they denied him in the first place...

Makes no sense... its likely Jesus wasn't in said books at all

a reply to: Akragon

Hey there… remember me...the OP lol

Mind if I wade in on the Trinity debate…from a neutral perspective!!!

If such a thing were possible lol


- JC

a reply to: Joecroft

LOL dude im sorry...

I had planned to stay out of this thread because im not a fan of Revelation... but sometimes i can't help myself

Please feel free, i didn't mean to hijack your thread

a reply to: Akragon

Hey Akragon wadaya make of this one…

Isaiah 44:6




Isaiah 44:6


Thought’s, feelings, general vibes…???


- JC

a reply to: Akragon

Hey just to bring this slightly back on topic, what were your thoughts regarding my question in this post…?

I know you have a busy schedule, and you’re not exactly a Revelations guy lol but seeing as you’re here an all…



- JC

a reply to: Joecroft

Nifty little word play... this is one of those trinitarian "proof texts" i was talking about previously

Thus says the LORD, Israel's King and redeemer, the LORD of hosts

the speaker/writer is actually refering to Israel... not the "lord" in this passage

Hey just to bring this slightly back on topic, what were your thoughts regarding my question in this post…?

Sorry man like i said i really can't weigh in on this discussion... Revelation is a write off to me

a reply to: Akragon

Originally posted by Akragon
Sorry man like i said i really can't weigh in on this discussion... Revelation is a write off to me

Man…how do you end up in these threads lol

Hey whatever you decide the Empire won't bite back lol

Originally posted by Akragon
Nifty little word play... this is one of those trinitarian "proof texts" i was talking about previously

Thus says the LORD, Israel's King and redeemer, the LORD of hosts

the speaker/writer is actually refering to Israel... not the "lord" in this passage

Huh…

How have you managed to come to that conclusion…?

The text is using the name Jehovah, the tetragrammaton…and that phrase “I am the first and the last” is commonly used to denote God…


Btw – I’m not a Trinitarian, I’m just playing devils advocate here…


- JC

a reply to: Akragon

But LORD in that verse is YHWH in the Hebrew.

a reply to: Joecroft

Man…how do you end up in these threads lol

They slip off the topic and i slide in...

Bad habbit

How have you managed to come to that conclusion…?

The text is using the name Jehovah, the tetragrammaton…and that phrase “I am the first and the last” is commonly used to denote God…

Right... said god is saying to Israel, He is the first and the last etc etc...