Revelation 17...???

a reply to: windword

Good point...

Personally i can't see anyone from ancient times imagining what the churches of today have become.

I constantly imagine Jesus face palming when discussing such things

a reply to: Akragon

Since "Christ" is the instrument that bridges, like Jacob's Ladder, God's Kingdom to the earthly kingdom, then Jesus Christ, if he is indeed that Christ (LOGOS) that Plato originally hypothesized, which is questionable in itself, is indeed a part of God's creation.

a reply to: windword

The very idea that Jesus wasn't a created being wasn't solidified until well after Nicaea.

Arius had the final major arguement against the ruling class of bishops (trinitarians)

I think "they" had a hard time understanding the idea that Jesus blasphemed claiming to be God, or at least according to Judaic beliefs he did. So they actually made him God, proclaiming his equality... which HE never actually said, thus clearing his sin because God can't blaspheme God.

Then they spent the next few hundred years digging through scriptures to find all the instances they could use to prove their theory... which even included adding Revelation to their canon to add the proverbial Nail in the coffin.

Tis the only book that clearly states Jesus is God... which is why it was added in my humble opinion.

Said book closed the canon of their scripture, and has their definitive proof of Jesus' God status

a reply to: windword
Maybe you wanna answer a question for me to see if my reason for distrusting Jerome and those who have fallen for his and his buddies' deception and fraud is unfairly biased and not based on logical reasons.

Why do you think (or what may be some possibilities in your view) Jerome used "possedit" (the Latin for "possessed") at Proverbs 8:22 instead of the Latin word for "created", or "produced" or "made" or "formed"?

Given the information in this video and the 2nd part. Here's another video that I shared before related to the same subject which also has a 2nd part (the list of videos I shared about Col.1:15-17 before, other verses are related and mentioned as well that clarify the subject for me and why Jerome did what he did).

a reply to: whereislogic

Why would you think that I trust Jerome?

a reply to: whereislogic

Quit with the videos brother... I watched a few of the ones you posted last night

truly, terrible stuff... not that the info was necessarily bad... just horribly boring and long winded

IF people wanted to watch videos they would goto youtube... This is ATS my friend

We discuss things here, not point people to the same videos over and over again.

Plus most of the ones you posted are word based anyways...

Why not just type what you're trying to say... ya maybe its easier to just post videos...

but you have to realize most people don't watch them

a reply to: windword
I don't.

Here's another one courtesy of the "man of lawlessness":

John 17:26a (NW), Jesus speaking about his God's name:

I have made your name known to them...

John 17:26a (NIV):

I have made you [e] known to them,...

Footnote e: Greek your name

Why put their interpretation in the translation and then what it really says in the Greek in the footnote? They aren't the only ones doing that and not all have footnotes.
Jn 17,6, 11, 26 How Did Jesus Make the Name of God Known p.1

a reply to: Akragon
It is far better for each individual personally to choose wisely what he will feed his mind. It is said that we are what we eat and this can apply to food for both the body and the mind.

Be selective: A completely open mind could be likened to a pipe that lets just anything flow through it—even sewage. No one wants a mind contaminated with poison. Solomon a king and educator in ancient times warned: “Anyone inexperienced puts faith in every word but the shrewd one considers his steps.” (Proverbs 14:15)

You can choose whatever you want to fill your mind with on ATS, there's plenty of comments, links to articles, videos, and other things to spend your time on then possibly expressing a need for the flow of accurate information about the bible to stop or not be taken seriously or dimissed as not entertaining enough (and apathy and agnosticism promoted).

Not to mention that I said enough, so allergic to videos (when they're about a specific subject)...
Just as allergic to what's in the comments come to think of it.

a reply to: Joecroft
some bits from 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 and Jesus speaking at John 13:35:

Love...does not look for its own interests,...It does not rejoice over unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth. ... Love never fails. ...

By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves.”

a reply to: Akragon

Thomas said to Jesus "my Lord and my God" in John 20:28. That was long before the council of Nicaea. Look at every manuscript from the 3rd century, they use the nomina sacra abbreviations for Jesus and God, that was 100 years before Nicaea.

Dan Brown sold fiction books, even at Barnes and Noble you have to go to the fiction section to find Da Vinci Code.

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: windword

Good point...

Personally i can't see anyone from ancient times imagining what the churches of today have become.

I constantly imagine Jesus face palming when discussing such things

I dunno, it's not like the Corinthian Church was all that great in the 1st century. They were fornicating with eachother, getting drunk on communion wine, and suing eachother in court.

The church in Galatia was full into Jewish legalism, the church in Colsse were entertaining Gnostic ideas and a false Jesus and gospel Peter and Paul both said, the only Church that had good kudos in the first 3 chapters of Revelation was Philadelphia. Lol

Jesus doesn't make us perfect, He forgives us. A church is full of new believers and very old mature ones, it's also has non-believers riding the fence and interested, and it has tares.

Churches of all eras have had issues. Now, I will condemn "seeker sensitive" churches that never teach the gospel from the pulpit and never talk about sin. Those are glorified Dr. Phil Shows, I can't imagine the Lord is pleased whatsoever there.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical

originally posted by: whereislogic
a reply to: NOTurTypical

Then why does Proverbs 8:22 say that he was created/produced/made by Jehovah and Colossians 1:15 say that he was "OF all creation"?

Because His flesh was formed in Mary's womb, same as every other person ever made. Christ was an exception, God didn't give Jesus a new soul/spirit, the Son of God put on human flesh.

Your answer does not make any logical sense to me given what it says at Proverbs 8:22-30 (which I asked about):

Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way,+ The earliest of his achievements of long ago.+ 23 From ancient times* I was installed,+ From the start, from times earlier than the earth.+ 24 When there were no deep waters,+ I was brought forth,* When there were no springs overflowing with water. 25 Before the mountains were set in place, Before the hills, I was brought forth, 26 When he had not yet made the earth and its fields Or the first clods of earth’s soil. 27 When he prepared the heavens,+ I was there; When he marked out the horizon* on the surface of the waters,+ 28 When he established* the clouds above, When he founded the fountains of the deep, 29 When he set a decree for the sea That its waters should not pass beyond his order,+ When he established* the foundations of the earth, 30 Then I was beside him as a master worker.+ I was the one he was especially fond of+ day by day; I rejoiced before him all the time;

Nice trick though, going to "formed" regarding Proverbs 8:22 and ignoring the rest regarding how it's used at Proverbs 8:22 because it wasn't spelled out in my question and avoiding the phrase "OF all creation" from Col. 1:15 alltogether. Neither Proverbs 8:22 or Col.1:15 is speaking of Jesus' flesh being formed in Mary's womb or the Son of God putting on human flesh.

The rest of Colossians is also pretty clear what the subject is, the same as Proverbs 8:22-30.

Colossians 1:15,16a,17

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible,...17 Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist,...

Entirely consistent with the subject of Jesus' existence before he came to earth in Proverbs 8:22; before he had flesh and was working as a master worker besides Jehovah, the Almighty God, who still produced/made/created/formed Jesus "as the beginning of his way" no matter what happened afterwards concerning his fleshly body when he came to earth. Which explains or logically fits the "Let US make..." in Genesis.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Akragon

Thomas said to Jesus "my Lord and my God" in John 20:28. That was long before the council of Nicaea. Look at every manuscript from the 3rd century, they use the nomina sacra abbreviations for Jesus and God, that was 100 years before Nicaea.

Dan Brown sold fiction books, even at Barnes and Noble you have to go to the fiction section to find Da Vinci Code.

The Thomas arguement is old and stale... He likely didn't even say such things to begin with, and IF per chance he actually did and that wasn't written into the story, he certainly didn't mean You are God... It completely contradicts the rest of the story... and the rest of the gospels

Jesus has a God, that is an undeniable fact... and he attributed everything to HIM... when he returned he said all the power on heaven and earth was GIVEN to me... which means he wasn't God at all... It was God that gave such things to him because HE was the only ONE that had that power.

HE Didn't consider himself God... and most definately didn't consider himself equal to God

and what does anything i've said have to do with Dan brown?

In His novel he actually fabricates what happened at Nicaea as part of the story

As you stated, its fiction... and we have some of the letters from Nicaea so we know what happened as history, not fiction

a reply to: whereislogic

Originally posted by whereislogic
some bits from 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 and Jesus speaking at John 13:35:

Love...does not look for its own interests,...It does not rejoice over unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth. ... Love never fails. ...

By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves.”

Not sure why you’re pointing out these 2 verses to me…or why you’ve ignored my last 2 replies…

You said you didn’t belong to any religion, but you are clearly some type of Christian. That means the Christianity that you believe in, is just believed in by you alone. Which means you see everyone else as being deceived, except you…Now where’s the love in that…?

I ask you in all fairness, does that sound rational, logical, does that sound loving…?


- JC

a reply to: NOTurTypical

And, the Word declares that Yeshua/Christ was THE CREATOR GOD BY WHOM ALL WAS CREATED THAT WAS CREATED.

That SHOULD silence a lot of the silliness.

Sigh.

a reply to: whereislogic

My Dear, my skepticism against Jerome doesn't come from what I've read on ATS or seen in YouTube videos, it comes from Jerome's own writings. You see, he was a big fan of Origin, but "The Church" found his writings to be heretical, so he (Jerome) altered those writings, according to his own written words, to fit within Church doctrine. He was following in his father's footsteps, Eusebius, whose writings are also questionable, in my opinion.

originally posted by: BO XIAN
a reply to: NOTurTypical

And, the Word declares that Yeshua/Christ was THE CREATOR GOD BY WHOM ALL WAS CREATED THAT WAS CREATED.

That SHOULD silence a lot of the silliness.

Sigh.

Why would christian dogma silence anyone that actually knows the bible?

a reply to: BO XIAN

And, the Word declares that Yeshua/Christ was THE CREATOR GOD BY WHOM ALL WAS CREATED THAT WAS CREATED.

What Word?

a reply to: windword

Word of God. (Bible)

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Oh. So, not Jesus then?