Psychologist who tested Mateen for security job did same for another killer

By David Fleshler and Skyler Swisher Sun Sentinel
June 15, 2016
Updated June 15, 2016 9:39pm

FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. » The psychologist who administered the test that established Orlando killer Omar Mateen as mentally fit to carry concealed weapons as a private security guard did the same for another South Florida killer who worked for the same company.

Carol Nudelman, who had an office on Red Road in South Miami, administered the tests that determined Mateen was “mentally and emotionally stable,” according to an application for a Class G firearms license released Wednesday by the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services. It’s unclear from the application whether the evaluation involved anything more than giving him a standard written test.

Nudelman years ago also had administered a psychological test to Paul David Ahern, another guard at security company G4S, then known as The Wackenhut Co. Ahern killed two people and wounded two others in 1998 at his condominium community in Kendall. He is serving a life sentence.

The week before the shootings, Ahern had been issued a temporary security officer’s license by the state. His psychological exam had been administered by Nudelman, according to a 1998 news article from the Miami Herald.

Mateen, who killed 49 people early Sunday at a gay club in Orlando, had also worked as a security guard for G4S. He held two licenses from the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services: a Class D security officer license and a Class G firearms license.

The gun license allowed him to carry up to two firearms. The psychological evaluation by Nudelman was conducted on Sept. 6, 2007, according to his firearm license application.
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So the same psychologist, Carol Nudelman, who gave a clean bill mental health to the Orlando murderer Mateen as “mentally and emotionally stable," did the same thing for at least another killer who worked for G4S.

Paul David Ahern, who killed 2 and wounded 2 others was another security guard that worked for G4S who was also given a clean bill mental health by the same doctor, Carol Nudelman.

I do wonder if there are others that this doctor also claimed to be mentally stable but were not? Could this just be coincidence?

Maybe the FBI should investigate this further.

Here is another source confirming this story.

miami.cbslocal.com...

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

I hate to find humor in such dark and awful subject matter, but I have to admit that Nudelman is a perfect name for anyone in the psych field.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

What exactly do these types of tests entail? Are they easy to fake your way through it?

You can have some pretty strong and horrible beliefs but still know the right things to say and do to fool the people around you.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

In her defense: psychological assessment is only possible for the past.

No one can see what will happen in the future.

There are so many cases where completely normal and naturally peaceful people lost it.
Causes range from stress to sleeping problems to head traumas which can change th brain, so that people become violent.

There is a documentary called "why are we violent" (i guess it was by BBC) on the topic.
An interesting documentary.


Having said that - reading of all the stories from Mateen's school days (lots and lots of disciplinary actions) and the accounts of his ex wife - i personally would not have given him the 'mentally stable' stamp.

So it looks like the ISIS psychology test became the dominant personality.

originally posted by: eeyipes
a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Are they easy to fake your way through it?

Perhaps the spirits in control of their human hosts are well aware of what answers they need to give to pass a test.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse
Seems to bolster the fact that Psychology is a pseudo science. And imagine all the profiling applications out there to prove you are unworthy.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Here is the thing....psychopaths may show or can show no symptoms that one may find in an unhinged person. Thats why they are called psychopaths.....their not unhinged their just psychopaths......sort of like alligators hunting pray.

a reply to: Slave2theTruth

Nudelman sounds Jewish. Maybe she didn't want to discriminate against him?

Though with the other guy she gave the all clear, I don't know, maybe she was just not very good at her job.

Which makes me wonder why she was not replaced in 1998.
Anyway, I hope she will not be asked again to make such a judgement call.
If I were her, I think I wouldn't even have wanted to do another analysis after being wrong the first time.

Great find. S+F

As I said in another thread, this homegrown terrorism has to be planted and then nurtured until maturity. Secondary to their rightful purpose, these tests are conducted to give the FBI enough information to select who they feel will develop into someone they can persuade into committing acts of violence. The terrible role America plays overseas combined with staunch Islamic principles is more than enough to convince those affected into martyrdom.

I wouldn't suppose these tests can be had by an FOI request?

Would they be protected under HIPAA?

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

imho . . . this psychologist . . . considers that outrageous.

A caveat, first . . .

1. Violent acting out and potential for violent acting out are extremely hard to predict.

2. And some of us are better at it than others. This shrink doesn't sound very good at it.

3. Sorry, but I'm not sure many women shrinks would be good at it. Their empathy and compassion might well get in the way of being discerning as much as necessary.

4. Oddly, I can often detect potential for violence better in 3-4 full face, clear eyed photos of folks than I can seeing them in the flesh in front of my face. However, seeing them in person, I can often pick-up on . . . maybe a spirit of violence hovering around them or emanating from them.

5. I do think it would be good for that psychologist to have a couple of other shrinks review all her cases for gun carrying jobs. imho, the stakes are too high, not to.

6. Some macho men shrinks also might be less discerning than required because they may tend to excuse some tell-tale nuances as just being 'manly.'

7. I wonder if it would be good to have such clearances pass through both a male and a female shrink. If a tie, a third one--a non macho, male shrink with a reputation for being very sensitive and discerning on such scores.

8. There's a seething undercurrent of anger that's plenty dangerous and needs closely monitored 24/7/365 but is challenging because we can't go around arresting folks for potential to be violent. Loners like that REALLY need monitoring closely.

9. Then there's the trigger that prompts them to act out !NOW!

10. Then there's the case like this one where there was long range planning based on a theological conviction, belief that the violence would be somehow eternally redeeming. That's a HUGE problem. And with the current WH traitor in chief insuring that thousands of such folks are pouring in our borders unfettered, the problem is only mushrooming.

11. imho, the burden on closer friends and family members is quite serious and many may not take that responsibility near seriously enough. And that's not even talking about those aiding and abetting actively.

12. PERSONALLY, IF anyone sees such a potential and feels 'in their gut' that there's a real danger--PLEASE ACT ON YOUR HUNCH AND NOTIFY SOMEONE WHO CAN AND WILL DO SOMETHING PREVENTATIVE ABOUT IT. The life you might save could be your own or the lives of your children. All the more so when alcohol is involved. All the more so when there's an active gritch between a son and a father--even if the dad is dead.

13. IF THERE IS ANY HISTORY OF TORTURING ANIMALS--KEEP YOUR DISTANCE AND NOTIFY OTHERS AROUND THE PERSON CONCERNED.

14. IF THERE IS ANY TRACK RECORD OF SPOUSE ABUSE--RUN AWAY FAST AND STAY GONE. GET A DIVORCE. IT WILL NOT GET BETTER. You may think that you're so wonderful or so good in bed or whatever that you can change the bustard. You can't. It would take a ton of professional help and hard work on his part to change. Most don't go that distance or anywhere near that distance.

15. IF THERE IS ANY HISTORY OF SPOUSE ABUSE with someone who works chronically with a gun--notify the superiors. Trouble is, a lot of ex Marines with such a record are now in law enforcement. Some have worked their stuff through and many have not. Those who have not need to have considerable therapy. AT least they must have the PTSD eye movement therapy to get rid of the energy fueling so much of the PTSD.

16. If a father shakes a kid aggressively or whacks a kid in a way that leaves a bruise or whelt or was in clear violent anger--insist on therapy. INSIST on it. If it is too bad, leave him, you may be next and you and/or the kid may not live to tell about it.

17. I have been trying to think of a list of factors I'd look for and don't have one off the top of my head. I go more with my intuition and spiritual sense. I'd have to read up on it. I haven't been in that literature for a long time.

18. Certainly these issues need close attention, if not monitoring &/or reporting:

A) IMPULSE CONTROL

B) ANGER EXPRESSIONS
1) Verbally
2) physically against property--throwing things, hitting walls, driving angrily (anger is one of the 3 top reasons for traffic deaths)
3) physically against people--directly with fists or hands or using sticks, belts, guns etc.

C) FRUSTRATION TOLERANCE AND MANAGEMENT--is it mature or at the level of a 2-4 year old?

D) DELAYED GRATIFICATION--a key indicator of maturity and mental health.

E) CUT-THROAT BITING SARCASM (PARTICULARLY PUT-DOWNS) and verbal assaultiveness--particularly chronically and/or for no good discernable reason.

F) DEAD EMOTIONALITY . . . turned off, cold, steely, hard, dead. Yet you know there's a furnace of fury under all the exterior and silence.

G) CHRONIC WAILS, WHINING, ANGER EXPRESSED TOWARD AUTHORITY FIGURES AND OTHERS PERCEIVED AS CONTROLLING--particularly when the controlling is described in overblown and inaccurate ways.

H) IF A BOSS OR PARENT FIGURE OR SPOUSE ARE ACTUALLY VERY !!!CONTROLLING!!! and/or seriously perceived to be so--it can be an accident waiting to explode.

I) PERFECTIONISM--particularly if Dad was a perfectionist with harsh, exacting and angrily expressed expectations and criticisms.

J) A HISTORY OF BEING TOLD OR FEELING TOLD TO "SIT DOWN, SHUT UP, BE QUIET, SUCK-IT-UP because 'yo ain't nothin.' "

K) A HISTORY OF FEELING WORTHLESS, SQUASHED, ABUSED.

. . .

I guess I did have some stuff on the top of my head after all--or near enough. LOL.

One of the above items may or may not be super critical depending on degree, frequency, context etc. However, the animal abuse and similar acted out physically abusive/violent stuff is a huge issue even if that's the only one noted.

GET HELP! SPEAK OUT!

Maybe the other mental health professionals like Buzzy Wigs could comment and add to the above.

a reply to: ugmold

Oh give it a rest.

Psychology is more a science in many respects than metallurgy.

Metallurgy merely requires a ton of knowledge and practice about a very limited set of variables.

Psychology requires a rather comprehensive understanding of almost countless variables in a long list of contexts. Certainly psychology is both a science and an art at its best.

imho, there aren't that many great psychologists/mental health professionals. And I was taught by some of the best in the country.

The research shows that the best are

(A) the cream of the crop academically and in their practicums
and
(B) those who have been super traumatized, mangled but have recovered, worked it all through successfully and come away with incredible insights and empathy.

The rest tend to be pretty mediocre.

a reply to: svetlana84

Do you have a handy link for that documentary?

originally posted by: svetlana84
a reply to: ElectricUniverse

In her defense: psychological assessment is only possible for the past.

No one can see what will happen in the future.

There are so many cases where completely normal and naturally peaceful people lost it.
Causes range from stress to sleeping problems to head traumas which can change th brain, so that people become violent.

There is a documentary called "why are we violent" (i guess it was by BBC) on the topic.
An interesting documentary.


Having said that - reading of all the stories from Mateen's school days (lots and lots of disciplinary actions) and the accounts of his ex wife - i personally would not have given him the 'mentally stable' stamp.

So ... given what we know of Mateen: beat his first wife, was a chronic violent troublemaker in school ... You would say that he was "completely normal and naturally peaceful" until he lost it?

a reply to: ketsuko

Hell no! the 'completely normal..." reference was a general reference.

I noted in my post (last lines) that with Mateen's school history and Ex-wife story i would not give him any clearance. And by clearance i mean i would not even give him a job as an unarmed security guy who checks if doors are closed at night.

a reply to: BO XIAN

Off course, especially after your well put post, i ll gladly provide a link.

The documentary is called "How violent are you"

How violent are you? on documentaryheaven


It s a really interesting movie, especially since violence is normally discussed in context
(marital abuse, racism, hooliganism, prison violence etc) but not on the level of psychology or biology.

a reply to: svetlana84

Thanks for your kind words.

However,

Your link was just back to this thread. An oversight?

originally posted by: svetlana84
a reply to: ketsuko

Hell no! the 'completely normal..." reference was a general reference.

I noted in my post (last lines) that with Mateen's school history and Ex-wife story i would not give him any clearance. And by clearance i mean i would not even give him a job as an unarmed security guy who checks if doors are closed at night.

INDEED.

He'd be a hazard in any shape or form.

a reply to: BO XIAN

Upps, i got the wrong link there.

i corrected it in the post, but here again:


how-violent-are-you

a reply to: svetlana84


Thanks about 1/3 to 1/2 through it. Well done.

Some things I hadn't heard before.