Rape Culture

a reply to: dollukka

a reply to: rockintitz

So rape in the US isnt a "culture", but what is it, an epidemic?

According to the FBI, a forcible rape occurs every 6.3 minutes or about 84,000 a year...

The crazy part is, we're going insane about rape being committed overseas by refugees but nothing is being done about it here right at home even though its shockingly more frequent.

30 Shocking Domestic Violence Statistics That Remind Us It's An Epidemic.

Rape Is Grossly Underreported In The U.S., Study Finds.

originally posted by: mandyslade
Oh lovely, a bunch of men telling us how the things we experience every single day don't exist.

What about men who are victims of sexual assault? What about all of the cultural attitudes that are antagonistic to the male gender? I think your comment is sexist. As if this discussion is 'women's only' territory or something.

originally posted by: mandyslade
Oh lovely, a bunch of men telling us how the things we experience every single day don't exist.

Are you seriously insinuating ONLY women are raped?

You cannot be that dense, can you?

originally posted by: MagnaCarta2015
I don't know about 1 in 5 but I know and have met plenty of women that have been sexually assaulted, fought off an attempted assault or were molested at a young age...very few of them ever reported it and some that did never saw it go anywhere. It's quite alarming to think about it. I'm not entirely sure 1 in 5 is a huge stretch.

Well I'm not sure what inclusions you have on 'sexual assault' - and surely all such things are bad - but only actual rape is rape and I do tend to think the 1in5 seems even to me absurdly high -- I would actually make it twice that if we were only including various forms of encroachment, assault, threat, or molestation, but vastly less for outright (intercourse) rape. Does it matter? Well I think so for the statistics and intelligently addressing it, anyway.

RC

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
Those who continue to treat rapists as if logical discussion will fix the problem are literally part of the problem, because they often choose to berate those who suggest constructive ideas (concealed carry and training for women, self-defense classes, et.) that empower potential victims are the wrong solution.

Very much agree with this.

Suggesting we teach all men 'not to rape' merely insults the vast majority who are not criminals and does nothing whatever to change those who are.

Suggesting that since rapists are 100% responsible for their crimes (of course they are, all criminals are), that women have no responsibility for self-protective behaviors, merely places more women in harm's way, resulting in even more victimization.

This then results in even more frustration and disgust from many others onlooking the situation when it goes public, who wonder why at least minimum levels of adult self-preservation were not employed which might have separated the rapist from the opportunity of the survivor to begin with.

That doesn't mean the survivor 'caused' someone to act like a criminal, they act like that because they're criminals. It just means 'steering clear of' criminals to the degree possible is obviously important. (Some degree of it will always be impossible of course, sadly. No need to make things worse.)

*

I will say though (and probably this is a whole new level of argument fuel for blaming the victim) -- because it hasn't been mentioned but I think if one really wants to face reality about a situation, should be -- that in addition to making oneself ridiculously "available" to criminals in some situations (e.g. at a frat party up in a room intoxicated), that human behavior happens on a 'spectrum' and that includes criminal behavior.

There are plenty of people who will be criminals under even the most challenging conditions; most premeditate; others who just take advantage of situations; and some who under about 96% of circumstance would probably just not go there.

But give them alcohol so suddenly a number of inhibitions are gone, and give them a bunch of mates cheering them on, and give them the opportunity spread out in front of them easy and immediately available, and they might act on it.

It's still criminal, but that's not the same personality profile as a sober person who leaps out from behind a bin in a parking lot to rape a stranger, or even a person who plans and manipulates ahead of time for the opportunity.

No, that doesn't mean the survivor 'made' them do it that would be ridiculous, but it does mean that of the combination of elements young men at frat parties face in particular (obviously this does NOT apply to the myriad of most other situations), often the circumstance of young women who want to feel sexy and admired and intoxicated may shift the "environmental opportunity" so that even the men lowest on the spectrum of temptation to criminal behavior may leap off that ledge of decision.

Rather like a woman was saying earlier on the thread about three men friends she thought she knew well and was in a car with and one 'jokingly' suggested they rape her, but I guess the tone of his voice and the sudden shift in the subtle energy in the car made her realize she was in danger and only her instant violently-verbal response she felt countered it actually happening. That particular guy is probably very high on the criminal behavior spectrum and at some point will act it out even if through more subtle manipulation. His friends may never on their own come near it again 'unless' peer influenced/encouraged and within an opportunity that makes it seem easy.

I guess what I'm saying is that criminals are criminals but they're humans and all human behavior is on a spectrum -- people aren't just sociopathic maniacs or saints, there's a lot of spectrum in the middle. This really only applies to specialized situations particularly with young men and particularly where any form of intoxication (including adrenalin as a drug) is present (the military is hell).

Ideally nobody would want to bias a situation in favor of "making it easier" for criminal behavior to have opportunity, because it doesn't just increase the opportunity in terms of space/time/event, it also increases the likely % of people who will behave like a criminal as well.

PJ

originally posted by: RedCairo

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
Those who continue to treat rapists as if logical discussion will fix the problem are literally part of the problem, because they often choose to berate those who suggest constructive ideas (concealed carry and training for women, self-defense classes, et.) that empower potential victims are the wrong solution.

Suggesting we teach all men 'not to rape' merely insults the vast majority who are not criminals and does nothing whatever to change those who are.

Suggesting that since rapists are 100% responsible for their crimes (of course they are, all criminals are), that women have no responsibility for self-protective behaviors, merely places more women in harm's way, resulting in even more victimization.

Agreed on both accounts, to differing extents. Insulting an entire gender by suggesting all of them need behavioral education because of the actions of a few is no less sexist than suggesting all of us women need behavioral education to not cry at the drop of a hat. Just because some women are crybabies doesn't mean all of us are, thus the need for education on how to refrain from bawling on a dime is insulting (you watch, though -- someone'll miss the forest for the trees & will insist this doesn't count as a valid parallel of gender stereotyping because crying isn't criminal)

As to the victims, I think we can all agree that unlike doling out crime punishments in absolutes, suggestions of what people can do to avoid being a victim isn't really anything absolute. There are varying degrees of preventative measures people can do, all of which are highly dependent on situations and locations. Being hyper-aware of your surroundings & company is a damned good start to build from, but god forbid you so much as hint at that. You're being a victim-shamer then.

originally posted by: InTheLight

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
a reply to: rockintitz

I think what many people fail to understand is that those who rape people have a mental problem that isn't fixed by logical discussion.

Those who continue to treat rapists as if logical discussion will fix the problem are literally part of the problem, because they often choose to berate those who suggest constructive ideas (concealed carry and training for women, self-defense classes, et.) that empower potential victims are the wrong solution.

Both mindsets baffle my sense of understanding.

It could be a mental problem or a programming (culture) issue, but I do agree with you that the berating of those trying to find solutions and open up dialogue about this is wrong. However, if packing a gun and self-defence skills is a person's only solution, then so be it, but it is wrong to put the responsibility there and not deal with (or even acknowledge) the underlying problem.

What is/are the underlying problem(s), in your opinion?

People don't seem to correlate overall declining morality with rape, but the fact is once certain taboo's go mainstream from yesteryear, there is always going to be a group that are on to the next evil.
We aren't animals, but some want us to believe we are no better than that alpha male silver back gorilla that would take any female around him at will. Again we are not animals we have self-control, we can make a conscious choice of evil that is rape for utterly selfish reasons. Their is no rape in the animal kingdom, just mating, this is what separates us from the animals. There has never been declining morality in the animal kingdom because there was never any to start with.

Love the avatar cat.

This may be going off-topic a bit but I suppose it is moderately to tangentially related...

originally posted by: Nyiah
Insulting an entire gender by suggesting all of them need behavioral education because of the actions of a few is no less sexist than suggesting all of us women need behavioral education to not cry at the drop of a hat.

Many of the men I know probably cry more than I do. :-)
I've tried to do more of it as I age, it's healthier...

I agree it's sexist, although sexism in general I tend to think is/was gradually healing/reforming -- the work on getting laws etc. changed that built it into business and other circumstance was fantastic (second wave feminism alas now past). There is likely more to go on that count but the majority is covered I suspect.

*

There are still a lot of very sexist laws but now most of them are actually against men, not women. Particularly in the case of a) choosing whether or not to be a parent, and b) the assumption of guilt about violence between mates, and c) the inappropriately unequal handling between genders of things like privacy prior to rape trials.

*

Separate from (but now glue-stick'd on as) sexism is a variety of cultural norms, such as for example men being "courteous and protective" of women -- all women, of any age, even those they don't know that they encounter in public -- and things like opening doors, pulling out chairs, assisting with carrying heavy things, and so on which many consider chivalrous, and I consider a charming set of habits I admire and appreciate -- these things, 3rd-wave feminism has denigrated into an insulting offensive invalidating behavior on men's part.

Politely asking someone not to do such things is more than enough and no big deal.

At this point most men I know have no idea what to do around women because no matter what they do, probably someone is going to get all offended about it. And most men I know aren't even complaining about whatever it is women want, they just want SOME kind of consistent rules so it doesn't seem like the whole of the social world is stacked against them and they're damned either way. This can not only affect their mating but career and more, so it's not really the small issue it might seem.

It's like a "dysfunctional family" behavior has been taken to the public at this point and we have an entire culture of men walking on eggshells, and gradually learning to seek permission/validation from women around them even subtly for levels of "being" that are just ridiculous and should be independent -- most aren't even aware of how this permeates their life. It's bad enough for 'men', it's even worse for boys growing up in it, especially with the stunning % of single moms (as I am btw). Books like "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and "The Way of Men" are good reading for men on these topics (I once got those for my best friend, who is a man, for Valentine's Day, and he he liked them as well as most the reviewers did on Amazon).

So they're already always on the edge of being 'wrong' according to some woman no matter how hard they try socially, and then the media regularly cycle-explodes with insisting that all men are inherently rapists -- so now they're all wrong period, they don't have to do anything at all.

At this point I think any human nature, but especially the more-commonly-aggressive nature of dominantly-testosterone driven biologicals, is going to get snarky, defensive, sarcastic and satirical, and lose a lot of the kinder, gentler nature they might normally have, or have had, prior to modern feminism making them feel either insecure or paranoid or both.

This is not about rape. Your point that the assumptions about all men and rape are inherently sexist are right though, I think.

RC

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
a reply to: rockintitz

I think what many people fail to understand is that those who rape people have a mental problem that isn't fixed by logical discussion.

Those who continue to treat rapists as if logical discussion will fix the problem are literally part of the problem, because they often choose to berate those who suggest constructive ideas (concealed carry and training for women, self-defense classes, et.) that empower potential victims are the wrong solution.

Both mindsets baffle my sense of understanding.

Agree. I think that strong feelings of sexual desire, usually toward the opposite sex, are a natural part of being a young male with a healthy reproductive system who is past the age of puberty. I have even heard rumors that women also experience this phenomenon known as sexual desire.

Acting in a predatory manner toward another to quench this desire is where the line is crossed. I am concerned with the mentality that men should be convinced that their desire itself is evil and therefore is something they must necessarily divorce themselves from.

These desires are natural physiological drives. Saying they are wrong and therefore should be ignored or rejected will just lead to more repression of a healthy approach to sexuality among men, ultimately making the problem of how men can express their sexuality in a healthy manner worse.

originally posted by: InTheLight

originally posted by: redmage

originally posted by: InTheLight
It is by definition

No, it's not.

originally posted by: InTheLight
and we women and men are stepping forward to define and explain it.

Mistaken again.

Gender-feminists are are simply stepping forward in attempts to re-define it to further the victim mentality in our spoiled "Victim Culture".

Read and learn.

www.huffingtonpost.com...

I must take issue with your article from the huffing and puffington post. It says:

Popular movies are strewn with plots of men with the sole purpose of having sex. In the movie "American Pie," the entire plot of the film revolves around teenage boys wanting to throw a party so they can get girls drunk and have sex with them. This has become more popular through comedies in the past few years and is a trend that does not seem to be slowing down. Movies that have similar plots are "Euro Trip" and "Superbad."

Look, reproduction is part of the human experience. Just because the film explores the sexual desire of young men (and women!) as a part of its content doesn't mean that it is promoting or perpetuating a "rape culture".

Actually, most of those films have female leads who are the aggressive parties in some of the intimate encounters. Eurotrip has one of the male leads having an unpleasant sexual experience. I'm pretty sure that most men watching that film would not think that his experience would be just "no big deal" if they were to experience it, unless they were into that sort of thing. I certainly wouldn't.

I can't help but think that this article is reaching with its assertions. I also noticed it was highly politicized with the examples of sexual misconduct amongst public figures that were noted.

originally posted by: TheBadCabbie
Look, reproduction is part of the human experience. Just because the film explores the sexual desire of young men (and women!) as a part of its content doesn't mean that it is promoting or perpetuating a "rape culture".

Considering this a sign of rape culture is to me, part and parcel of the current utterly-hysterical-omg-insanity that women in social media seem to have about Pick-Up Artists -- whom they will basically insist are outright rapists and are teaching men to rape. I see it just the opposite -- business and sales skills are taught the same way, "don't force it, seduce it," -- PUA's are basically teaching men how to ensure a seductive situation is NOT rape -- the woman agrees.

In media, the complete lack of accurate quoting -- to the point of not just misquoting but ignoring multiple statements then making up agendas out of whole cloth and assigning against someone -- is so extreme that it can't even find rational conversation anywhere online or off and in some cases has resulted in literally thousands of openly illegal, violent threats from women against men, including men they have never met, know nothing about, who might merely attend a social group meeting, threats to ruin their jobs, homes, family, or health -- its literally crazy.

(I don't even dare give a name example lest this thread and possibly an ATS server somewhere literally implode.)

That sex is a part of our biology and our culture doesn't mean any of that promotes criminal behavior. And there are plenty of TV and movies where women are the dominant sexual influence, should we assign culture-wide negative meaning to that too?

For that matter, what does our culture have against all those cars we keep wrecking in chases in so many movies.

Hmm. Maybe that was inappropriately flippant for the seriousness of the subject. I'm not sure.

RC

originally posted by: dollukka
a reply to: rockintitz

Take a vacation and read some news from Scandinavia for example.. it might open your eyes. Never heard of taharrush game ? Then think what could be possibly be advocated by that ?

Advocated are you serious? You mean when rapist is caught he gets a punishment? There are a lot rapes which are never reported as it depends on complainant does she or does she not press charges. If not charged rapist gets " out of jail card " but raped is suffering lot of mental issues and even physical issues after rape. Victim of the rape can spend rest of her life in mental prison after that.

What about campus rapes (for example in US and in UK ).. do they happen ? Is it cultural, what migh lead to those ? The issue is much deeper than you seem to see.

Hundreds of female Cambridge students have been raped or sexually assaulted, says shock survey, but almost none went to police

As many as 8.4 per cent of women said they were attempted assault victims
Findings based on responses from more than 2,000 Cambridge students
Vast majority - 88 per cent - did not report attacks, and only two told police

More than one in thirteen women at Cambridge University has been sexually assaulted, a shocking new survey has found.

According to the study, women at the prestigious institution are routinely groped, molested and even raped - but overwhelmingly do not even report the attacks.

The survey, which received over 2,000 responses, revealed that the majority of sexual assaults happen inside the university's historic colleges, where students typically live for the majority of their studies.

Of the women who responded to the online survey, 8.4 per cent said that they had experienced attempts to seriously sexually assault them.

However, the vast majority - 88 per cent - of victims did not report the assault, and only two students involved the police, with most contacting university staff instead.

An anonymous rape victim who answered the survey said she did not report her attacker because she was so certain nothing would come of it.

She said: 'I have no reason to believe that my report will be taken seriously, be investigated or result in a conviction. On the contrary I have every reason to believe that he would be acquitted.'

LINK

1 in 6 female undergrads sexually assaulted on MIT campus, survey finds

In an unprecedented, broad-based survey, the Massachusetts Institute of Technology polled students about their attitudes and experiences with sexual assault on campus. One in six female undergraduate students who responded to the survey say they’ve experienced sexual assault on the Cambridge, Mass. campus, although fewer than 5 percent reported the experience to authorities or to the school.

MIT released its comprehensive survey results yesterday. The poll is the first of its kind for the MIT community, and it goes beyond the scope of similar studies at other colleges and universities. Nearly 11,000 undergraduate and graduate students were surveyed last spring, and 35 percent responded.

LINK

There is much much more.. are you still saying there isn´t such a thing ?

ROFL! Most of those woman claiming to be raped suffered from a terrible kiss. Countless people's lives have been ruined because males were actually charged with rape over a KISS! If you're going to post a bunch of lies as fact, at least source where it is now common practice for male students to force female student to sign a contract to KISS!

LMFAO! It's funny how the most educated are the most stupid, innit?

So I stepped away for awhile. Finished my taxes (first time I've ever had to pay in for State... grrrr). Went to work and such, but something has been eating at me about this topic. At work I kept circling back to the same questions.

Are modern-feminists actually blaming the victims?

Seems strange, even hypocritical, but follow along.

I keep hearing modern-feminists tout the roughly "80% of rapes go unreported" estimate.

If we ignore the ever shifting goalpost of "Rape Culture: You know it when you see it"; I personally agree with Abysha's definition stating "the concept is actually about 'rape being implicitly and explicitly promoted by a culture'."

Could the much used "80% unreported" estimate be considered implicit promotion? Are modern-feminists inadvertently blaming the majority of victims for a perceived "rape culture"? With pragmatic preventative-actions constantly being demonized and construed into "victim blaming", the above notion doesn't seem that far of a stretch.

Furthermore, does constant exposure to this 80% estimate in any way normalize unreported rape? If 80% don't report it, does this become the norm for victims? Will young victims see this statistic and think, "if 80% are unreported, should I just keep quiet too"?

Then add editorialized comments to the mix, like the Yale study posted earlier by dollukka...

LINK
Why do so many women choose to remain silent after being sexually assaulted? To answer that question, one should look at the three institutions with which she will come into contact: the police, the hospital, and the courts
- POLICE: In most locations the patrol officer on call will respond to a complaint by a rape victim. This officer has probably had little, if any, training in dealing with rape.
- HOSPITAL: Whether or not a rape victim intends to report an attack to the police, she should obtain medical care. When a woman who has been raped arrives at a hospital, medical personnel have a two-fold responsibility. They must treat the patient and also provide evidence for the police that a rape did occur.
- THE COURTS: A woman may report an assault to the police but choose not to press charges. However, if she does decide to file a complaint and the rapist is arrested, she may come to feel that she, not the rapist, is the person on trial. With few exceptions, statements by these victims describe their court experiences as unpleasant and difficult.

The officer has "probably" had little, if any, training? This is Yale, and the best they could come up with for training statistics is "probably little, if any"? It certainly sounds discouraging, and I don't see how this is supposed to encourage victims to come forward.

"Victims describe their court experiences as unpleasant and difficult"? Again, does this message encourage victims to come forward? I've had to testify in court when my friend's car was stolen, and while it certainly wasn't a rape case, it was not a pleasant experience. It goes without saying, but I don't think court is a pleasant experience for most anyone.

Finally, if Hospitals, Police, and Courts are all denied 80% of their chances to improve the situation (or even show the situation has improved) it circles back... are modern-feminists inadvertently blaming the victims for implicitly promoting a perceived "rape culture"?

It worries me that so much modern-feminist energy seem to be put into discouraging victims from coming forward.

originally posted by: TheBadCabbie

originally posted by: InTheLight

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
a reply to: rockintitz

I think what many people fail to understand is that those who rape people have a mental problem that isn't fixed by logical discussion.

Those who continue to treat rapists as if logical discussion will fix the problem are literally part of the problem, because they often choose to berate those who suggest constructive ideas (concealed carry and training for women, self-defense classes, et.) that empower potential victims are the wrong solution.

Both mindsets baffle my sense of understanding.

It could be a mental problem or a programming (culture) issue, but I do agree with you that the berating of those trying to find solutions and open up dialogue about this is wrong. However, if packing a gun and self-defence skills is a person's only solution, then so be it, but it is wrong to put the responsibility there and not deal with (or even acknowledge) the underlying problem.

What is/are the underlying problem(s), in your opinion?

It is complex and I am still trying to figure it out, moreso if women's supposed sexual freedom actually produces a push-back from those that have a warped need to control and gain power over others, and use the violence of rape to satisfy that need. What then is the underlying cause of that need? A result of violence begats violence via bullying from being bullied? Mob mentality? A mental illness or psychosis?

What do think it is, or where it comes from?

www.theguardian.com...

a reply to: InTheLight

Inthelight! Jesus Christ woman, hey my name is Jarod, I don't hate women in fact I respect them, I love them, and honor them! Why are you in every thread that might say otherwise? I'm seriously wondering because I am a right wing man but I don't hate you, in fact I wish the best for you and care a lot about my fellow man/woman (but to hear you tell it you may think otherwise) I hope your remember all that withstanding your crusade.

a reply to: InTheLight

You might be onto something with "bullying from being bullied". Perhaps the extreme power shift has sparked something in sociopaths.

Currently the power rests securely in the hands of women.

As mothers of young sons in this thread have repeatedly pointed out their worries for their sons. If a man opens a door for a woman then it's assumed he's sexist and somehow thinks a woman isn't capable of opening a door herself. If a man doesn't open a door for a woman then it's assumed he's a chauvinist pig, and the list goes on and on.

Men are constantly walking on eggshells because, according to the modern-feminist movement, they can do no right, and the modern-feminist movement largely controls the public narrative.

originally posted by: TechniXcality
a reply to: InTheLight

Inthelight! Jesus Christ woman, hey my name is Jarod, I don't hate women in fact I respect them, I love them, and honor them! Why are you in every thread that might say otherwise? I'm seriously wondering because I am a right wing man but I don't hate you, in fact I wish the best for you and care a lot about my fellow man/woman (but to hear you tell it you may think otherwise) I hope your remember all that withstanding your crusade.

Hey Jarod, the only crusade I am on is in trying to understand the ills of society and have meaningful discussions and open up dialogue. Perhaps you may want to contribute your thoughts on the topic at hand.

a reply to: redmage

Herein lies another problem, generalizations on feminism, blanket statements, not focussing on the underlying problems or issues and skirting the real issues or truths that psychologists and researchers have already figured out. Don't blame the messenger.

a reply to: InTheLight

I've contributed enough on all these topics, and I see you in every thread, and I wonder sometimes what brought you here, and why you fight the fight that you do? I think it's a reasonable question, anyway I'm sorry that someone said or did you wrong in such a way that it hurt you deeply, or that some man told you that you weren't good enough. They were wrong, because you are, good enough .. I just want you to know that, I have nothing else to add to this topic.