Rape Culture

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

The topic is is there such a thing as a rape culture.

The link shows that a high% of people believe that rape victims have at least partial responsibility.

In what way do you think that is off topic or attacking the messenger?

Are we products of our environment (legitimizing rape in the media) and is culture recursive?

There are basic factors that affect the base level of a person’s acceptance of violence against women. The two strongest indicators are gender and cultural norms. Across cultures men are more likely than women to “agree with myths and beliefs supportive of violence against women, perceive a narrower range of behaviors as violent, blame and show less empathy for the victim, minimize the harms associated with physical and sexual assault, and see behaviors constituting violence against women as less serious, inappropriate, or damaging” (Flood and Pease 2009). Cultural beliefs that include rigid gender norms have also been linked to a tolerance of violence against women. However, women in communities with conservative gender ideals tend to be less accepting than their male counterparts (Flood and Pease 2009).

Generally speaking it has been shown that exposure to violence results in desensitization to that violence (Krahé et al. 2011) and in some cases may even cause an increase in enjoyment in viewing violence (Fanti et al. 2009). Again, this is not arguing that it causes violence, just that people will have a reduced negative physiological response to perceived violence.

Likewise, a portrayal of violence against women tends to increase men’s acceptance of interpersonal violence, and especially in the case of sexual violence, may increase their acceptance of rape myths. This has been shown for multiple media types, including video games (Beck et al. 2012), TV (Kahlor and Eastin 2011), and movies (Linz, Donnerstein, and Penrod 1984; Malamuth and Briere 1986). Generally, this is not the case for women, and they may even reject such beliefs (Malamuth and Briere). Viewing violence against women, however, may increase a woman’s feelings of disempowerment (Reid and Finchilescu 1995).

womanstats.wordpress.com...

a reply to: InTheLight

This research believes rape is a learned behaviour; therefore, rape culture.

how so...quite a stretch...from your own reference?
So if this is a learned behaviour from our culture...and culture being roughly defined as the accepted norms ideals forms behaviours within our "group culture" why isn't it more prevalent?

Why is it still a reprehensible crime commited by a small percentage?

Why is it 99% of men don't commit rape?


www.d.umn.edu...

We view rape as behavior learned socially through interaction with others; convicted rapists have learned the attitudes and actions consistent with sexual aggression against women. Learning also includes the acquisition of culturally derived vocabularies of motive, which can be used to diminish responsibility and to negotiate a non-deviant identity. Sociologists have long noted that people can, and do, commit acts they define as wrong and, having done so, engage various techniques to disavow deviance and present themselves normal. Through the concept of "vocabulary of motive,"

This is from the OP

We do not live in a rape culture. In fact it's the opposite. I and the majority condemn rapists. In fact I'd say that in most western societies rapists are looked at as the lowest of the low. To suggest that the only way to end the crime of rape is to treat all men as rapists, unless they've proven otherwise, is the epitome of thought crime.

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

If 99% of men don't rape, then who is raping the 1 in 5 women (corroborated stats from multiple sources) - also take into account the 88% (varying percentages - low 68% - high 92%) of unreported rapes - that would take it up near 3-4 out of 5 women are raped?

The Silent Shame

www.independent.co.uk...

The psychology of denial - rape scripts - rape myths -

Why would so many rape victims not consider their experience to be rape? The reasons are numerous and vary from person to person. Some women do not want to view themselves as “rape victims” because this label connotes powerlessness or stigmatization (Lamb, 1999). Some do not want to view the perpetrator – often an intimate partner – as a rapist. Others are influenced by rape myths that define rape narrowly or that blame the victim for rape.

www.newhavenrtc.com...

a reply to: InTheLight

I don't hate men and neither do the other women posting on this thread

these were my words...pointing to the skewed statistics by certain feminists (outside of this thread) with an agenda...

here you go statistics! Now will you be part of the solution and educate your fellow man hating women?

Again as you are so concerned what will you do to ensure that balance is restored and not everyman walking is a seen "potential rapist" in todays "wedge politics"
here again I quote from my earlier post. Any comment?

author Suzanne Venker points out that "three peer-reviewed studies have found the rate of false accusations of rape to range from 41% to 60%.

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

Those findings probably do not take into account psychological trauma, denial, or protecting the rapist, which in a high number of cases the victim knows or is intimately involved with on some level. This is a complex issue, I believe to be a deep rooted misunderstood phenomenon, maybe in the realm of PTSD as well as cultural shame and stigma.

a reply to: InTheLight

3-4 out of 5 women are raped?

1 in 5 to 3/4 out of 5 are raped - Which country are we getting these stats from? Seriously......1 in 5?


en.m.wikipedia.org...

Statistical factors Edit Unlike the majority of countries in Europe, crime data in Sweden are collected when the offence in question is first reported, at which point the classification may be unclear. In Sweden, once an act has been registered as rape, it retains this classification in the published crime statistics, even if later investigations indicate that no crime can be proven or if the offence must be given an alternative judicial classification.[11][28][29] Sweden also applies a system of expansive offence counts. Other countries may employ more restrictive methods of counting. The Swedish police registers one offence for each person raped, and if one and the same person has been raped on a number of occasions, one offence is counted for each occasion that can be specified. For example, if a woman says she has been raped by her husband every day during a year, the Swedish police may record more than 300 cases of rape. In many other countries only a single offence would be counted in such a situation.[8][11][15][29][30] In Sweden, crime statistics refer to the year when the offence was reported; the actual offence may have been committed long before. Swedish rape statistics can thus contain significant time-lag, which makes interpretations of annual changes difficult.[11][29]

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

If 68% - 92% of rapes are unreported, say 80%, then we have the reported ones at approx. 37%, what fraction would you arrive at?

a reply to: InTheLight

Those findings probably do not take into account

what exactly are you pointing to?

I believe to be a deep rooted misunderstood phenomenon, maybe in the realm of PTSD as well as cultural shame and stigma.

So if in some cultures there is shame and under reporting how does that apply to the OPS assertion that the USA is not a rape culture?

Marital rape is outlawed in the USA...you cant get any more enlightened than this.

en.wikipedia.org...(United_States_law)

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

Your 99% men don't rape finding (where did you find that stat?) and your false rape accusation stat (how was that determined?)...doesn't take into account so many factors (see my links).

And who says the law is being followed?

Stats in culture -

www.statisticbrain.com...

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

Can.you provide a link to these studies as the generally accepted figure seems to be between 2 and 8%.

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

You think the benchmark for enlightenment is martial rape being illegal? Wow talk about setting the bar low.
Has also only been illegal in all states since the 90s.

originally posted by: InTheLight
a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

Your 99% men don't rape finding (where did you find that stat?) and your false rape accusation stat (how was that determined?)...doesn't take into account so many factors (see my links).

And who says the law is being followed?

If we are to discuss whether or not Western civilization has a deep rooted culture of violence and control/power towards each other showing it's ugly head via sexual abuse, we should be believing the victims and the researchers, not some random person's personal belief.

Stats in culture -

www.statisticbrain.com...

originally posted by: AshOnMyTomatoes
I think the real driving force behind rape culture is, paradoxically, the prudish and puritanical nature of the US Christian culture. Bible-belt thinking is widespread throughout the country, such that some of its ideals even persist into more liberal urban centers. Thus, when a culture clash occurs between free-thinking, liberal women who believe in owning their own sexuality, and puritanical Bible-thumpers, the women wind up labeled loose, slutty, asking for it. In every scenario whereupon a woman has decided to forego old-fashioned Christian sexual taboos (e.g. Kim Kardashian's nude selfies, a club girl going out in a microskirt, a mother breastfeeding in public, etc), these women are nearly always met with backlash from a public that is quick to shame them for daring to wish to display their bodies, or express themselves how they choose.

A rape of any of these women need not occur for the rape culture to rear its ugly head: the rape culture is, by definition, the act of blaming the women for their choices when a rape does occur, and for even suggesting in the first place that if it does occur it's her fault. One could make the argument that shaming women for their body choices at all is encompassed in rape culture, as an extension.

The rape culture deniers do not understand this, seemingly.

Then it's not "the patriarchy", it's religion.
You might start by getting your enemies straight...
Sorry... "Gender-normative."

originally posted by: InTheLight

originally posted by: redmage

originally posted by: InTheLight
I am trying to understand the ills of society and hope to have meaningful discussions with people of like mind.

And there's the key. You only engage with "people of like mind".

Someday you'll figure out that, often, the most meaningful discussions actually occur with people who challenge your opinions and beliefs. These are the discussions that actually cause one to think and consider new thoughts and ideas.

Limiting yourself to only those who support and reinforce your beliefs and preconceived notions is a disservice to yourself.

You are reading assumptions into my words...like minded people as in wanting meaningful discussions as I do. I see you have no intention of wanting to discuss the psychological and societal side of this issue.

I hate to cross this line, but it has to be said:
If you really did make a point to speak genuinely with people who disagree with you, you wouldn't still believe in rape culture.

I got into a heated argument about this with a third wave friend of mine over dinner, and after I gave her solid facts for half an hour that refuted all her statistics, it ended with her crying and me forfeiting because I didn't want to hurt her over it. She said I couldn't understand because I was a man, which, ya know, I don't know what it's like to be a woman... But facts don't care what gender I am, and that's what it boils down to.

If you all wanna have an actual debate, throw out some stats and where you got em. Otherwise, you have no right to cry rape culture.
But if your feelings can't handle the conclusion, then you have been warned.

-Cheers

originally posted by: InTheLight

originally posted by: InTheLight
a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

Your 99% men don't rape finding (where did you find that stat?) and your false rape accusation stat (how was that determined?)...doesn't take into account so many factors (see my links).

And who says the law is being followed?

If we are to discuss whether or not Western civilization has a deep rooted culture of violence and control/power towards each other showing it's ugly head via sexual abuse, we should be believing the victims and the researchers, not some random person's personal belief.

Stats in culture -

www.statisticbrain.com...

Sorry for the multiple posts everyone,
but one OBVIOUS fact that gets overlooked somehow is the one that answers "Why might there appear to be a Patriarchy?"

Well, since our first appearance on this planet we have had males provide the sperm and females provide the egg. For 6 to 7 months of gestation the male was (and still is) expected to protect the female and unborn child while the mother is weak and vulnerable... From other men? No. She's already pregnant. She can't get pregnant "again". No, from real predators, like wolves, coyotes, jackals, mountain lions, bears. Why did we evolve this way?
Because we're mammals, and nature found this the most effective way of ensuring surviving offspring.
This is why woman have 30% less natural muscle mass and a different hormonal balance.
Most men find women attractive, and most women find men attractive, and frankly that's okay.
We're just different, Okay?

We men didn't conspire and plot to do this to you, so blame attackers, not men at large.

Let's just put this into perspective:
It took millions of years just for us to domesticate animals, grow crops, form organized settlements, and develop written language, and this may give you the illusion that we're some great super-evolved space gods...
But we're still rhesus monkeys.
One day maybe we'll be asexual, and on that day we'll be truly equal in ever sense, but until then there will be occasional abherant behaviors, and it's not because men think that women are mindless exploitable property.

It's because there's an exception to every rule.

originally posted by: InTheLight
You are reading assumptions into my words...like minded people as in wanting meaningful discussions as I do.

Alright, while I think your previous statement was more than clear, with no assumptions needed, I'll gladly give you the benefit of the doubt because the search for meaningful discussion is the reason I've continuously posted in this thread. In that spirit, I have a question for you.

In your opinion, am I a rape victim?

This pertains to the topic because, if I am, I would be a part of that "80% unreported" estimate that people use as evidence of a rape culture.

I want your honest opinion, be it yes or no; so allow me to open up and share a personal experience with you.

I had been friends with a certain woman for around three years. It was a long distance situation, but we were certainly very close friends who spent countless nights talking until the wee hours of the morning (often right up until one of us needed to go to work missing sleep entirely).

Finally, the day came where she asked me if she could come and visit for a week so we could finally meet in person. I gladly agreed, and prepared my guest room for her arrival (I had ZERO expectations for anything beyond two friends finally getting the chance to meet face to face).

The day came, she finally arrived, and it was great! Nightfall came and went as we chatted away, and in the morning as we were finally getting ready to get some sleep she asked if she could stay with me in my room. I agreed (again, with ZERO expectations). I have quite a large bed (being 6'3") with more than enough room for two, we trusted each other, and I've platonically slept with female friends many times in my life.

Needless to say, she initiated more, one thing led to another, and things were great! Her one week visit turned into two, then three, and finally an entire month (she worked for her local school district, and had the entire summer off).

The day came when she finally needed to head back home. School was about to start, she would be needed at work, and she missed her two sons who had been "staying with their father for the summer". It wasn't easy, but we said our goodbyes, and knew that we still had our long nights of conversation to look forward to.

The day after she got back home I received "the call". She seemed nervous, and finally admitted she needed to tell me something... she was still married.

I was devastated.

As a child my parents had pretty messy divorce, and I experienced, first hand, two miserable custody battles (one for me, and a few years later, one for my brother). I vowed, even then, that I would never allow myself to be a factor in another person's divorce (especially in a situation where children are involved). Regret doesn't even begin to describe my feelings.

I'm a firm believer in the notion that if someone is willing to cheat with you, then they're also willing to cheat on you. I would have never consented to escalating the relationship beyond friendship had I know she was still married.

So I ask you, InTheLight, in your opinion am I a victim of rape?

While a simple yes or no would suffice, I would like to hear your personal opinions behind what leads you to believe one way or the other.

Here's your chance to show that you're truly interested in meaningful discussion, and I think this is a situation where you and I can find some common ground.

a reply to: rockintitz

Agree with the idea of your post. There is one problem on earth (in social manner) that less than pinch grasp on ATS. Ofc. it has been dictated by certain groups - main spec that there is Agenda for malformation on Man on Earth. Realize, please, man carries the positive aspect, the warrior, he is the one who can(and should) stand defending the rights on EARTH itself. Well, it won't now, as it has been already debilitated by modern culture(look how many fags... just walk the streets of Amasterdam let's say, and how many slaves living pathetic women-like service lives)

P.S. don't get that women energy is pathetic, it is pathetic when men is overcome by this energy, women have their ways for good - nature commanded and is rightful and holy as much man is holy in his way. For this was commanded. We forgot to obey.

LAkadian wrote:

She said I couldn't understand because I was a man, which, ya know, I don't know what it's like to be a woman...

1. This doesn't explain why plenty of women like me don't agree with her perspective, and I've had 'victimizing' experiences (although I feel victimization is not what happens to you, but is a state of mind).

You know what differs? SHE FEELS WEAK. She feels like a victim. She's crying about it.

Why would someone else's stats on a cultural problem result in individuals feeling threatened, triggered, and traumatized? Because they are walking around feeling inherently, fundamentally weak and victimized or even pre-victimized.

I am starting to think the larger problem is a nation of decades of subclinical nutrient deprivation forking the psychology of the population, who start feeling and behaving like 13 year old girls. Being slightly sick comes in many forms. It might be fat or diabetes but it can also be psychological and emotional problems. Maybe the real outcome of our decades of biggest lab rat nutrition experiment in history is THIS -- the pre-criminalizing of all men, which is also the undermining of the country's strongest dynamic if I were an enemy hoping to destabilize another culture or country -- not just the more obvious health issues.


2. Formal definitions I read said that "sexual abuse" means "a forced kissing or fondling."

Which means any man who tried to kiss me but I turned away is guilty of ATTEMPTED sexual abuse, and any man who grabbed my ass when dancing or who kissed me when I didn't want it is guilty of ACTUAL sexual abuse, so gee whiz by those standards by the time I was 18 I was just a walking victim with a trauma list that'd take pages to print.

And since attempted SA, actual SA, attempted rape, and rape, are very often all combined together in the "statistic" some sources end up with, then I could easily add to whatever creative number we've got. Sure, 1-in-5 might be real if we include all those things together, so kissing and groping are grouped with RAPE. For godssakes!


3. I've seen it written many times that "men should have no part of this argument." But men are not only 50% of the argument in terms of the event, they are most of the argument in terms of "ignoring the constitution's due process as it increases the ease of annihilating a man's life whether or not he's actually guilty."

The college 'tribunals' that operate 'in place of' any sort of legal or even decently legal-style inquiry are a nice example. You would think if they were going to pursue that path the least they could do is make such tribunals run entirely by uninvolved, objective senior and grad students in law, with everything in the protocol totally open as an educational insight, who would use it as real cases to example law, rather than by Expert Representatives of the Victims' Brigade.


I understand that rape is actually damned difficult to prove. Thinking that simply waiving due process and imprisoning men because a woman said so is not a solution to this. There is no easy solution to this, and THAT'S LIFE.

The inability to accept anything except some polarized we-must-have-someone-to-hate (now that it can't be blacks or jews or gays or The Russians I guess it can be cops, or men, ensuring we've always got SOME 'common enemy' available!) is a psychological problem on the part of the 3rd-wave feminist victim's brigade more than it is a legal problem.

So, since it really IS difficult to prove, and since the small % of criminals in our population tend to be premeditated on this subject and people who don't expect it are most vulnerable, right now the most important and useful thing we can do is educate women (or really, everyone) on how to take the same kind of precautions humans would be taught if it were long ago in time and we were going out into a world filled with dangerous terrain and predators: we'd be taught to be wary, to avoid risk, what to do if caught in the situation, and so on.

RC

Thinking about why I bother, I think it's this:

I resent that a bunch of professional victims with no respect for the constitution and an extreme sexist hatred of men pretend they represent other women such as me. Their approach to this entire topic is not only not constructive, it's a dangerous pathology that harms women, men, our culture, and the larger tenets of our country. As a result if there is any 'enemy of the people' here I consider it them. Men are part of us as a species and part of us as a nation and I will never agree to make an entire category of people victims to placate the constant feelings of victimization in someone else.

And since men merely defending themselves or their gender are interpreted as being offensive or threatening merely in their self-defense they need women to stand up for what's right as well. (The recognizable manipulation tactic of emotional bullies is to make the other guy unable to even make their own points because they are so busy defending themselves, and then to make them inherently bad just for the process of defending themselves.)

It doesn't help that the few men with the drive and financial independence to stand up to all this (because 3rd wave fems will group and destroy men who publicly argue -- get them fired, threaten them like the worst stalkers en masse, and more) tend to be the men who are extremists already. Much like politics doesn't get laid back ordinary people it only gets those 'driven' sorts. And then men are actually stuck being defended dominantly by guys who even if they have excellent points on the rape issue may be complete archaic cretins about any other number of things or their perspective on women.

It's not just about men or rape at this point IMO it's about a huge cultural need for a common enemy. Now that we aren't allowed to hate anybody, but we're in a century of profound culture shock, people have to find SOME source to project their reasons for feeling scared upon and to project into 'the enemy.' The source needs to be physically identifiable -- not like those darn terrorists who won't wear uniforms, or the LGBT who blend in, but aha! -- men are identifiable as THE OTHER! -- what a perfect Common Enemy they have become! You can recognize those suckers anywhere.

RC