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Proof: Advanced Ancient Indian Civilization existed

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posted on Apr, 3 2009 @ 08:45 AM
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Being that this is the second thread I've seen today on this subject...should I understand this to mean that the people who destroyed the civilization have decided to go ahead and admit their crime?

trying to get a reduced sentence, huh. hell is hot.




posted on Apr, 3 2009 @ 09:06 AM
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I am posting new evidence:

Microbiology, genetics and scientific methodologies in Sanskrit Medicine

www.dhanwantriayurveda.com...

The susceptibility or non-susceptibility of disease depends upon vyadhikshamtva even though the person is exposed to Krimi (protozoal,viral, bacterial or fungal) or other etiological factors of disease.

www.ayurgoa.com...

Ayurveda considers micro-organisms as one of the causes of the disease. Ayurveda describes them as krimi. They are classified into 20 types. Some of them are invisible. Some of them are beneficial to body. Ayurveda also describes some of them as rakshasa.and massive eradication of these rakshasas is recommended. Fumigation of operation theatre by burning some herbs is one of the examples of these eradicative procedures.

But Ayurveda doesn’t give them prime importance. The importance is to the underlying environment beneficial for microbes to grow. Our oral cavity (mouth) contains millions of bacteria. We ingest a lot of bacteria). They come in contact with our body every second via skin, via air, food drink etc. but still we are not always ill. Nor every one of us falls ill even in epidemics. So there is something beyond bacteria. And this is body’s resistance. Our body is made up of three main factors called as Dosha, dhatus and mala. Now out of this Dosha are the basic vitiating factors and if they are stable the person is healthy. When these doshas which are 3 in number (vaata, pitta, kapha) get disturbed they vitiate other two factors. Whenever these vitiated factors are formed in the body them the micro-organism can invade the body and produce disease. Ayurveda considers deha or body as the fields and the bacteria as the seeds and gives importance to field then the seeds. If the field is fertile for the seeds then only the seeds can grow. Similarly if the body is weak then the diseases ca crop up. Same is with the mind. Ayurveda, therefore while treating a disease, the importance is given to the promotion of health of doshas and dhatus, and not upon destroying the microbes.

www.naturalhealthweb.com...

Therefore when two or three doshas become severely vitiated and combined, they produce interaction between them. In such conditions opposite qualities, instead of nullifying each other interact and produce a toxic substance. ( Ash. Su. 13 /26) Krimi visha -Bacterial toxins When an infection is caused by the pathogenic organisms, they liberate a toxic substance. Properties of ama : It is always in the form of incompletely digested substance Hence it is non-homogenous, has a very bad or foul odor which can be experienced only when it is combined with excretory products such as sweat, urine, and feces, or when products such as sputum, vomit, etc., are expelled from the body. It is very sticky. it produces lethargy in the body. Symptoms of ama : Srotorodha -Obstruction- This can occur in any large, small, or minute channel, when it is indicated by stagnation and disturbance in transport, and metabolism can occur even at the cellular level.

ayurveda-foryou.com...

1) Charaka first described Multiple sclerosis, Alzheimer’s disease, Myasthenia Gravis, Parkinson’s diseases etc conditions in great precision including the pathology, prognosis and management and even today the medical Science could surely benefit from this classical treatise. These neurological disorders have increased and now the medical fraternity has started research and I would like to state that it is time we seriously considered the contributions of this wizard, which would make the life of many patients better in many ways. Many common chronic conditions like diabetes, tuberculosis, leprosy, heart /kidney problems and prevalent viral diseases, eye/ear/nose/throat diseases have all been explained.

(2) He has described microorganisms as causative factors for leprosy, tuberculosis, influenza, dental caries and some types of fevers and also mentions that microorganisms are present in the intestines, the whole of the alimentary tract and cardiovascular system and diseases manifest when the immunity lowers. Great importance is given to enhance immunity than administering antibiotics.

3) The contributions of Charaka in genetics are worth exploring. Genetic engineering to change the sex of the fetus has also been described. The microscopic structures like genes; chromosomes; DNA and RNA have all been described. What factors other than genes are responsible for unique characteristics have also been expounded. Least explored section in Ayurveda known as Arista lakshana and shareera sthana have statements, which are based on genetics. Charaka has explained many procedures like panchakarma, rasayana, sadvrtha etc, which undoubtedly transform the genes to behave beneficially. Charaka states that Alzheimer’s is passed on to the off spring by the father’s genes.

4) Many hereditary conditions have been discussed; con- sanguine marriages have been discouraged and stated to be the cause for many disorders. Diabetes is among many other conditions listed as hereditary.

5) Preventive aspects have been given so much of importance that Ayurveda has also been thought to be more preventive than curative. Diet and other habits have been analyzed in great detail and categorically stated as to what are to be followed and what are to be avoided and today conventional medical Science has time and again proved all these to be true.

6) Anti aging has been researched very well and many scientific aspects of it have been described in totality-which has today caught the medical world’s fancy and the research in this field has started.

7) Charaka was fully aware of the impact of the environment on the health of living beings so he advises how & why the environment should be maintained in perfect order. (Read article Homa –how scientific?)

8)We find references, which show that referring surgical cases to surgeons was in vogue even during Charka’s time. Dhanwantari was the well-known surgical school of the day then.

9) Statistical approach in Charaka samhita is based on keen observation, scientific analysis conducted for many years on many thousands of individuals, irrespective of religion, region, time, age, stage of diseases, etc factors. Charaka like all other ancient seers believed strongly that –one man’s food is another man’s poison .No two individuals, nor two siblings, or identical twins share similar qualities, similar upbringing or environment or similar genetic pattern nor likes, dislikes, equal appetite, physical features or emotions and how then can one single drug be suitable and how can similar responses be expected? Many factors are considered before planning a treatment strategy for each individual and the present day research, which treats a disease, not an individual fails in the long run and seems very unscientific and immature.

10) Vranagandhagna- vranachintaka,(Vrana is a term for all types of wounds and ulcers and a doctor who contemplates on it, who is proficient in identifying the type, severity etc and decide a suitable management by it’s smell) Shastrakarmagna (a surgeon) Rasveta bhishak, ras chintaka, (a specialist who thought of all aspects of rasa) Ksharatantravidhu, (seems to be a super specialization .A surgeon was to learn the different types of applications of kshara, it’s utility ,advantages ,etc from an experienced surgeon who was also a specialist in the above & after learning ,working under his guidance & then permitted by the ruler of the province-he could be a kshara tantra vidhu.)are some of the specializations mentioned as in vogue during Charka’s period Though Ayurveda is known to be holistic the concept of referring to specialists was prevalent.

11) This ancient seer encouraged unique methods of research, scientific outlook and critical observation before any theory could be accepted by a vaidya (clinician) who is essentially a researcher too and has also given guidelines as to how, when and why it is essential to develop a holistic scientific medical system.

12) Let me quote from Charaka samhita -" The Science of life shall never attain finality. Therefore humility and relentless industry should characterize your endeavor and your approach to knowledge .The entire world consists of teachers for the wise and enemies for the fools. Therefore, knowledge, conducive to health, longevity, fame and excellence, coming from even an unknown source, should be received, assimilated and utilized with earnestness".



posted on Apr, 3 2009 @ 09:46 AM
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Before anyone starts debating advance civilizations there needs to be some evidence that their living was advance in some way. I would suggest that some civilizations were well advanced to the average of the their era, but to say there was a civilization more or equal to the 1500s and later would be a hard sell.


The sanskrit tradition far surpasses the 1500's and this is why it is anomolous. Would you consider modern computer science theory 2500 years ago or even older to be anomolus?

www.amazon.com...

Computing Science in Ancient India

Not only the sign for zero, but also the binary number system, the ideas of metarules, algebraic transformation, recursion, hashing, mathematical logic, formal grammars, and high level language description arose first in India. Indian mathematical science had already reached dizzying heights 2,500 years ago by the time of Panini and Pingala. This classic book of contributions by leading scholars in the world presents an overview of these seminal contributions to computer science. It also includes chapters on models and computation in astronomy and cognitive science.

The structure of computer programming languages is discussed by T. R. N. Rao in the chapter titled "The Panini-Backus Form in Syntax of Formal Languages". Panini, the great Punjabi Sanskrit schlaor, invented a notation to describe the rules of grammar, which are remarkably similar to that devised by Backus. This article makes the powerful case for renaming Backus-Naur Form to Panini-Backus Form, as "we must give credit where credit is due."

The use of binary numbers forms the basis for the operation of digital computers. B. van Nooten of the University of California, Berkeley, describes his discovery of binary numbers in Pingala ’s "Chandahshastra", an ancient Indian text on music. In order to classify the meters, Pingala constructs a "Prastara" or a matrix of binary numbers. Pingala also describes how to find the binary equivalent of a decimal number.

More articles on the same subject:

www.infinityfoundation.com...

The above makes the powerful plea that Backus-Naur Form (BNF) should be truly called Panini-Backus Form (PBF), as "we must give credit where credit is due." Paninian grammars, which consisted of over 4,000 algebraic rules and metarules have been studied by a number of scholars. Kak (1987), reviews the Paninian approach to natural language processing (NLP) and compares it with the current knowledge representation systems of Artificial Intelligence, and argues that Paninian-style generative rules and metarules could assist in further advances in NLP. Another article by Staal (included in this book) discusses the consistency of the system of rules of Panini, as tested by Fowler's Automaton. These are among the marvelous contributions of ancient India to computing sciences.

Is is not odd that great discoveries in computer science, which still have not been matched in the 21st century, are being made 2500 or more years ago?

I will be providing more evidence of Ancient Indian Computer Science in due course in this thread. What I have provided so far is enough to stimulate discussion. This is a significant revelation, computer science in ancient times and warrants discussion.



posted on Apr, 3 2009 @ 02:37 PM
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Binary nuimbers were known in the West, independant of India (which did, indeed, excell in mathematics) long before the idea was applied to computers.

The idea that the existence of knowledge about binary numbers must somehow be tied to computers indicates an ignorance about mathematics.

Binary numbers are the integers base 2.

There are an infinite number of bases for the integers. Knowledge of this one base system is really kindergarten stuff when you start getting into number theory (the study of which which was also almost completely played out before computers were even concieved of,) and the fact that the Indians knew about binary numbers is not surprising at all. In fact, it would be absolutely astonishing if they didn't.

IOW, the knowledge of binaries indicates nothing whatsoever in any way associated with anything about any compuiter ever invented, no matter how hard Indigo tries to claim it does.

Also, linking to claims at several holistic healing clinic advertising sites is not "backing up your claims" about the Ayurveda.

Harte



posted on Apr, 3 2009 @ 03:16 PM
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Howdy Indigo

Sure we can post here instead of the other thread




An ancient Sanskrit text called the Amsu Bodhini, stored at India most prestigious Sanskrit achive: Library of Oriental Institute of Vadodara on cosmology and astrophysics, composed by the same author of the controversial Vymanika Shastra


Hans: Yes I read that and posted a thread on that subject here on this forum, its a modern fake




has been investigated officially by India's scientific authories and one of the 5 spectrometers mentioned in the text have been built according to its specifications and patented and published in a peer-reviewed journals, one of India's most prestigious science journals INSA.


Hans: Indigo have you read that article? Do you know what it says? The articles uses a great number of weasel words, overall the scientists seem to claim is that they were inspired by the ancient writing - its interesting that the Ancient scientifically advanced civilization used the crude form of 22/7 instead of the actual Pi.

The paper claims a machine that can read chakras, by some clever wording they remake this into a vague device that can measure light, real light not the vortices and religious concepts of chakras. I'd say they were forcing the data and trying to take a metaphysical concept and apply it to a known scientific one. This isn't a demonstration of ancient science but modern men applying modern knowledge.




Ayurveda considers micro-organisms as one of the causes of the disease. Ayurveda describes them as krimi. They are classified into 20 types. Some of them are invisible. Some of them are beneficial to body. Ayurveda also describes some of them as rakshasa.and massive eradication of these rakshasas is recommended.


From the wikipedia


A rakshasa (Sanskrit: राक्षसः, rākṣasaḥ is a demon or unrighteous spirit in Hindu and Buddhist mythology. Rakshasas are also called man-eaters ("Nri-chakshas," "Kravyads") or cannibals. A female rakshasa is called a rakshasi, and a female rakshasa in human form is a manushya-rakshasi.

According to the Ramayana, rakshasas were created from Brahma's foot; other sources claim they are descended from Pulastya, or from Khasa, or from Nirriti and Nirrita. Legend has it that many rakshasas were particularly wicked humans in previous incarnations. Rakshasas are notorious for disturbing sacrifices, desecrating graves, harassing priests, possessing human beings, and so on. Their fingernails are venomous, and they feed on human flesh and spoiled food. They are shapechangers, illusionists, and magicians.


Hans: In my opinon you are attempting to change ancient metaphysical concepts into modern ones by refusing to acknowledge their real meaning - and what it meant to the people who wrote them - and showing disrespect to the religion by putting new words in their mouths.

Here is a challenge to you Indigo

Give us your three, and only three, best pieces of hard verifiable pieces of evidence that supports your contention. That their was a modern advance civilization in northern India. Remember your are claiming that (based on the last claim you made) that the made spectrometer, a device that would require a number of advanced modern skills - skills not showing in the archaeological record.



posted on Apr, 3 2009 @ 03:52 PM
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Originally posted by Harte
Binary nuimbers were known in the West, independant of India (which did, indeed, excell in mathematics) long before the idea was applied to computers.

The idea that the existence of knowledge about binary numbers must somehow be tied to computers indicates an ignorance about mathematics.

Binary numbers are the integers base 2.


There are an infinite number of bases for the integers. Knowledge of this one base system is really kindergarten stuff when you start getting into number theory (the study of which which was also almost completely played out before computers were even concieved of,) and the fact that the Indians knew about binary numbers is not surprising at all. In fact, it would be absolutely astonishing if they didn't.


I said the information was anomolus. It was not just the concept of binary numbers which was being used, it was an entire system of binary logic and the use of hashing algorithms to convert number notation into binary and letters into numbers.
This did not appear until the end of the 17th century with Leibniz.
Pingla has been conservatively dated(but such dating is based on a eurocentric view, many Indian scholars these dates are off by at least a millenia) to the 2nd century BCE. This means that it is 1500 years ahead. It is modern and yet it is 1500 years old.

Moreover there is growing evidence that binary logic did not independent develop in the West, but was strongly influenced by India. By the 17th century Indian Philosophy as well known in Europe, as was Indian mathematics. So even what we call "modern" is based on the ancient Sanskrit tradition. Curious that.

[edit on 3-4-2009 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Apr, 3 2009 @ 04:27 PM
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Hans: Yes I read that and posted a thread on that subject here on this forum, its a modern fake


Are you referring to the Vymanika Shastra or the Anshu Bodhini? They are two separate texts, but attributed to the same author. The Vymanika Shastra was investigated by Sanskrit experts to see if it matches the Anshu Bodhini because of its mysterious origin.




Hans: Indigo have you read that article? Do you know what it says? The articles uses a great number of weasel words, overall the scientists seem to claim is that they were inspired by the ancient writing - its interesting that the Ancient scientifically advanced civilization used the crude form of 22/7 instead of the actual Pi

The paper claims a machine that can read chakras, by some clever wording they remake this into a vague device that can measure light, real light not the vortices and religious concepts of chakras. I'd say they were forcing the data and trying to take a metaphysical concept and apply it to a known scientific one. This isn't a demonstration of ancient science but modern men applying modern knowledge.


I think you are mistaken. The word Chakra does not mean energy vortices, it means "wheel" Sanskrit words have a fluidic character they can be used in various contexts but mean different things, which makes it a difficult language to translate. The word "dharma" for example is used in some texts to mean religion or law, but it is used in physical texts to mean fundamental characteristics. So the dharma of water is to 'flow' etc

This text has been translated by a team of the best Sanskrit experts and it has been built. It does indeed give directions on how to build it. I have had these directions translated in my thread "Vedic Physics"



1, 2. First and foremost. Make a 120 * 120 finger elipse from a mirror like glass of 106 karmac(mm) which will form the base. In the centre draw lines like a a 24 hour clock and two circles on both sides of it and making sections on it like a dial.

यंत्रस्थद्वादशांगस्यपूर्वभागेस्थितेक्रमात्।
चतुस्श्रेयथाशास्त्रंवर्तुलंभारवर्जितम्।
वितसस्तिदशकायामंसुदृढंचसुसूक्ष्मकम्।।
छायापकर्षणादर्शषडुत्तरशतात्मकम्।
शास्त्रोक्तविधिनासम्यक्स्थापयेत्सुदृढंत्तथा।।
पश्चाच्छायापकर्षणदर्पणे शास्त्र:क्रमात् -
शंकुस्थानाद्दक्षवामपार्श्वयोरुभयोरपि।
त्रिंशत्त्रिंशल्लिखेद्रेखादर्पणान्तावधिक्रमात्।।
अह:प्रमाणघटिकान्दक्षरेखास्तयो:क्रमात्।
रात्रिप्रमाणघटिकान्वामरेखस्तस्थैवहि।।
प्रदर्शयन्तिसंख्यात:तथाविघटिकान्क्रमात्।
तेषुदर्शयितुंरेखाश्चतुष्षष्ठिर्विलेखयेत्।।
सर्वत्र रेखान्त्यभागेबिन्दुनेकसमन्वितान्।
स्फुटंविलेखयेत्तद्वत्तदन्तस्सूक्ष्मतस्तथा।।

3. After that, with a stony glass, make a 4 finger radius and 72 finger height pole and place it in the centre of the base. Then from the start of the pole to the end, at 12-12 finger distance apart make three holes, so, that they will correspond to the electrical wiring to the sides. This is also called the principal pillar.

चतुरंगुलमायामषड्वितस्त्युन्नतंतथा।
इतरांगैस्समाहृतविद्युत्तत्र्यादिभिर्युतम्।।
स्वमध्यादन्तपर्यन्तंवितस्तैकान्तरंयथा।
रंध्रात्रयेणसंयुक्तंशिलाकाचविनिर्मितम्।।
मेरुस्तंभाख्यशंकुंतन्मध्येसंस्थापयेद्दृढम्।


4, 5 and 6. After that, make three holes on both sides and from principal pillar at 10-10 finger distance, make a 60(4) finger height pole(from the same stony glass) so that it corresponds to the first hole. Then make ar 8-8 distance from that at 50(5) finger height and finally at 6-6 distance make a 40 finger height pole(6). Fix these tightly. Then do the same with the right side, except make them slightly longer. The top of all the poles will have a chain and axel mechanism.

दृढंदशांगुलायामंक्रमात्यष्ट्यंगुलोन्नतम्।
पश्चातृतीयरंध्रस्यपार्श्वयोरुभयोरपि।।
तथाद्वितीयरंध्रस्यपार्श्वयोरुभयोरपि।
शास्त्रोक्तविधिनादंडमेकंसंधारयेद्दृढम्।।
दण्डंसंधारयेतद्वत्सुदृढंकाचनिर्मितम्।
क्रमादष्टाङ्गुलायामंपंचाशदंगुलोन्नतम्।।
चत्वारिंशत्यंगुलोन्नतमायामेषडंगुलम्।
एवंप्रथमरंध्रस्यपार्श्वयोरुभयोरपि।।
दंडप्रमाणमुभयोस्समानमपिपार्श्वयो:।
दंडंसंयोजयेत्पूर्ववद्दृढंकाचनिर्मितम्।।
तथासंधारयेत्तेषुदंडानित्रीण्ययथाक्रमम्।
किंचिदूर्ध्वभवेद्दक्षेवामेथस्थात्स्थितिर्यथा।।
दंडानांमूलदेशेसंधारयेत्पार्श्वयो: क्रमात्।
पूर्वोक्ततंत्रिभिर्युक्तचक्रकीलान्यथाविधि।।

7. After that, 30-30 lines on both sides make a 50 finger radius circular glass plate. On this, a 80 Surya Prism will be placed(a collminating lens) put in the third hole on the right(top) in such a manner, the corresponding pole on the right can turn it at 3 revolutions per cycle.


I really don't see how you can force an interpretation to give very accurate technical directions, then actually build the thing and then it up that no other such spectromemter acutally exists . Then to also build a new stealth material from the ancient text. You should bear in mind this study has done been with a whole team of Sanskrit experts and scientists from the best institutions in the country, which are known to be some of the most prestigious in Asia.

So I don't think you can dismiss this so outright, the evidence is simply too strong.



From the wikipedia


A rakshasa (Sanskrit: राक्षसः, rākṣasaḥ is a demon or unrighteous spirit in Hindu and Buddhist mythology. Rakshasas are also called man-eaters ("Nri-chakshas," "Kravyads") or cannibals. A female rakshasa is called a rakshasi, and a female rakshasa in human form is a manushya-rakshasi.

According to the Ramayana, rakshasas were created from Brahma's foot; other sources claim they are descended from Pulastya, or from Khasa, or from Nirriti and Nirrita. Legend has it that many rakshasas were particularly wicked humans in previous incarnations. Rakshasas are notorious for disturbing sacrifices, desecrating graves, harassing priests, possessing human beings, and so on. Their fingernails are venomous, and they feed on human flesh and spoiled food. They are shapechangers, illusionists, and magicians.


Hans: In my opinon you are attempting to change ancient metaphysical concepts into modern ones by refusing to acknowledge their real meaning - and what it meant to the people who wrote them - and showing disrespect to the religion by putting new words in their mouths.


This is the same misunderstanding you had with the term Charka. The word Rakshas does indeed mean demon, but it also means germ. It is first described in the Atharveda, from which the Indian medicine tradition evolves. The fire-sacrifces that are done in the Vedic tradition are done to kill germs(rakshasa) in the atmosphere, the ritual of using herbal fumugation is still practiced as part of Vedic cleansing rituals.

Kau#aki Brahmana, 17, 4: The blood sucking parasites are called Rakshasa.

In mythology Rakshasas are demons. In Indian medical texts they are germs. However, in the Indian medical texts do ot use the word Rakshasa but krimi(microbe, parasite) and they give 20 classifications of them, and what kind of diseases they occur, and the kind of steps one should take to get rid of them. None of this is metaphysical, it is very precise medical instruction. None of this is controversial, its widely accepted and studied. Every student of Indian medicine has to study the Charka Samhita in very precise detail.

I have provided a lot of different sources to show microbiology is indeed a part of Sanskrit medicine and they all converge on the same thing. I even cited right from the text itself. Are we all lying?

[edit on 3-4-2009 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Apr, 3 2009 @ 04:46 PM
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Also, linking to claims at several holistic healing clinic advertising sites is not "backing up your claims" about the Ayurveda.

Harte


That is perhaps a bit dishonest. The links I gave you were not all holistic healing clinics but from certified experts in the fields of Ayurveda, as well as a medical journal article:

The sources I linked:

Dr. T.R. Shantala Priyadarshini, BAMS, MA (Sanskrit); MS (Shalakya) teaches at the Mysore Ayurvedic Medical College and also is involved with clinical & theoretical research including spastic/mentally retarded, retinal diseases, immunity. She has been practicing Ayurveda for the past 15 years in Mysore and may be reached at shantala301@rediffmail.com

Vikas Gautam M.D.
Department of Medical Microbiology
Post Graduate Institute of Medical Education and Research

Mandeep Singh Dhingra M.D.
Clinical Research Division
Shantha Biotechnics Limited


Ex Liasion Officer State Drug Inspector (I S M) Haryana, Ex Naturopathy In Charge Panchkula, Haryana

Source for the above: www.ispub.com... nowledge_or_a_vedic_mystery.html


I know it maybe hard for you to accept that microbiology and genetic engineering were known to ancient cultures, but dismiss this evidence out of hand is hardly honest. I have already cited from the text a section on microbes which also implies microscopes, and now ive corroborated it with several different sources and they all converge on the same. So there is strong evidence here.

I will still look for more sources, but what I have provided so far should give you reason to pause.

[edit on 3-4-2009 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Apr, 3 2009 @ 05:41 PM
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I have looked for more sources on Sanskrit Medicine and microbiology. Here is a book available on google books, most of it can be seen in preview and indeed it does mention that Ayurveda does indeed describe microganisms.

books.google.co.uk... &hl=en&ei=hoTWSf_sDMOMjAeTyKyYCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10



[edit on 3-4-2009 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Apr, 3 2009 @ 06:48 PM
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reply to post by Indigo_Child
 



However, the more advanced yantras, like anti gravity or mercury propulsion, are still beyond the grasp of scientists.


Although this was posted back in 1995...my my...I cannot believe I am reading a 4 year old thread...but it is definitely interesting...

Now "most" of this is completely new to me but I do have a couple of insights I thought I would share...

As far as "Anti-Gravity" machines from what I have gleaned from many different sources...and those that require proof may find their "own proof" at their leisure...the power is within and not without folks...to make it very clear on my stance of "Proof"...Proof has many shades and colours and is not "Absolute"...and I think you erred in your wording "Indigo" that you were in fact presenting "Proof"...but I believe you have learned this lesson already...as it is after all...4 years later...and you appear to be still quite active and quite rigorously vocal in your debates...you have a lot of passion and I admire that in you...but do not let this blind you in your progression...this is the most important of all....well anyways...on to the "Meat and Potatoes"...

So...as I was saying...I "believe" that the "Secret Government" may very well have beat the never ending illusion of "Gravity" and I think it was the "Nazis" that developed it first...although conquered before they could deploy this very deadly weapon...although I have also read and heard through many many sources that deploying a weapon from these ships was near impossible in the earlier stages of trial...because the Anti-Gravitational Field emitted from the ship would disrupt the Weapons Capabilities...a stumbling block I am sure....

Now another point I would like to make...sorry...I have not read all of the threads here...is on the subject of "Pottery"...now I may very well be misinterpreting the use of the word "Pottery" but from my "Westerner" upbringing I immediately begin to think of "Clay Pottery"....and this kind of struck me as odd...what would an Advanced Civilization be doing with "Clay Pottery" as we use Kilns and Produce Ceramics, Glass and Plastics and a whole myriad of other types of container/vessels such as Aluminum, Stainless Steel etc...

Now looking at this "Pottery Problem" from another perspective...the Hopi and Navaho and many many other Native American bands used to regard various "Clays" with the highest of value...even more so than gold...simply because of it's spiritual and Conscious Raising abilities and such...it is one of the most powerful "Chelators" on the Earth as we know it...

just a thought...from a funny little man...



posted on Apr, 3 2009 @ 07:45 PM
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Then from the start of the pole to the end, at 12-12 finger distance apart make three holes, so, that they will correspond to the electrical wiring to the sides.


Hans: Gee a mixture of “finger measuring” and then electrical wiring, so your claiming this society had electric power? Evidence, hard evidence




I really don't see how you can force an interpretation to give very accurate technical directions, then actually build the thing and then it up that no other such spectromemter acutally exists .


Hans: Indigo go read the source you seem to have not read and quote directly from how they say they created the device




Then to also build a new stealth material from the ancient text.


Hans: That is your claim but I see nothing that would support it. Your main problem seems to be that you are quoting from sources that are from people who also beleive as you do. Regretably the real world, real science, doesn't support your fantastic creations.



You should bear in mind this study has done been with a whole team of Sanskrit experts and scientists from the best institutions in the country, which are known to be some of the most prestigious in Asia.


Hans: Argument from authority. So let me use an argument from authority too, zero, let me say it again zero recognition from authority and experts of this claim and all your other claims, so how to you explain that?



So I don't think you can dismiss this so outright, the evidence is simply too strong.


Hans: Very easy you are simply misrepresenting the material, there is no evidence of what you seem to so desperately promoting



This is the same misunderstanding you had with the term Charka.

The word Chakra does not mean energy vortices, it means "wheel" Sanskrit words have a fluidic character they can be used in various contexts but mean different things, which makes it a difficult language to translate.


Hans: No it isn’t, it’s what people call reality, you have distorted the word for your own reasons. However you claim to find meanings that support modern science – how amazing. So this device detects what again? Your own paper says it detects Chakras?



The word Rakshas does indeed mean demon, but it also means germ.



Hans: Yes it is but it says nothing about germs, you’ve made that up




The fire-sacrifces that are done in the Vedic tradition are done to kill germs(rakshasa) in the atmosphere, the ritual of using herbal fumugation is still practiced as part of Vedic cleansing rituals.


Hans: Flames in the atmosphere is an exceedingly poor way to kill germs – but is an excellent way to drive off demons




Are we all lying?


Hans: I would call it zealotry blindness and excessive zeal, and the refusal to accept you have no real evidence. Is that lying? Yes it is.

Here is a question for you. If you are right then for the last several thousand years all the the rest of believers in this religion were wrong, because they believed in demons, spirits and other non-scientific oncepts - why were they so wrong for so long? You might want to look at the body of material gathered in the 17th, 18th and 19th century about these religious concepts....

I noticed you ignored my challenge -

Here is another challenge for you. Explain why the scientific world has not accepted this idea of yours - if the evidence is 'strong'?



posted on Apr, 3 2009 @ 08:13 PM
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I can understand the scepticism when these Sanskrit texts are not available for reading as they're in a foreign and ancient language. Moreover while English translations are available for the Sanskrit corpus, they are not usually online and they're not perfect. The earlier ones are usually very inaccurate to the point of distortion. Although there are modern translations but this is usually elite and only kept within the academic tradition. It seems the Sanskrit tradition is very heavily guarded.

However, I will assure you once again none of the texts I have referenced are controversial. Their content is widely known and studied in Indian Philosophy, Indology, Sanskrit studies etc. The Charak Samhita does actually classify microrganisms into 20 categories(bacteria, virus, fungal etc) It does state them to be the cause of some diseases and it does prescribe how to treat them and means of sterilization etc. It does indeed give very vivid descriptions of them and it does indeed allude to microscopes(but there is no explicit mentions of microscopes) So microbiology is certainly a part of the Sanskrit tradition.

Now what is interesting the first time microbiology is described was by Louis Pasteur in the 17th century. However microbiology begins to classify germs much later into the 18th century.

This means Sanskrit medicine dated conservatively around 1000BCE is 1800 years ahead. It is therefore on par with modern medicine.

Should this surprise? No, because as seen earlier Sanskrit tradition is using binary logic and hashing algorithms to analyse music, dated conservatively around 200BCE which does not appear until the end of the 17th century. It is therefore 1500 years ahead. Hence it on par with modern mathematics and logic. [

The real shocker comes from Panini, conservatively dated 500BCE who pretty much fathers modern computer theory, modern linguistics, modern formal language and is still at the cutting edge of AI and language research. He is beyond 21st century science.

I have collected lots of information on Panini available on the web to demonstrate just how advanced the Sanskrit, linguistic mathematical and logical computing systems are:


Wiki: Panini

The Ashtadhyayi (IAST: Aṣṭādhyāyī Devanagari: अष्टाध्यायी)) is the central part of Pāṇini's grammar, and by far the most complex. It is at once the most exhaustive as well as the shortest grammar of Classical Sanskrit. It takes material from the lexical lists (Dhatupatha, Ganapatha) as input and describes algorithms to be applied to them for the generation of well-formed words. It is highly systematised and technical. Inherent in its generative approach are the concepts of the phoneme, the morpheme and the root, only recognized by Western linguists some two millennia later. His rules have a reputation for perfection — that is, they are claimed to describe Sanskrit morphology fully, without any redundancy. A consequence of his grammar's focus on brevity is its highly unintuitive structure, reminiscent of contemporary "machine language" (as opposed to "human readable" programming languages). His sophisticated logical rules and technique have been widely influential in ancient and modern linguistics.

The influence of Pāṇini on the founding father of American structuralism, Leonard Bloomfield, is very clear, see e.g. his 1927 paper "On some rules of Panini" (Journal of the American Oriental Society Vol. 47 pp 61-70).
Noam Chomsky has always acknowledged his debt to Pāṇini for his modern notion of an explicit generative grammar.[9] In Optimality Theory, the hypothesis about the relation between specific and general constraints is known as "Panini's Theorem on Constraint Ranking". Pāṇinian grammars have also been devised for non-Sanskrit languages. His work was the forerunner to modern formal language theory (mathematical linguistics) and formal grammar, and a precursor to computing.[10]
Pāṇini's use of metarules, transformations, and recursion together make his grammar as rigorous as a modern Turing machine.[clarification needed] The Backus-Naur form (Panini-Backus form) or BNF grammars used to describe modern programming languages have significant similarities to Pāṇini grammar rules. Pāṇini's grammar can be considered to be the world's first formal system, well before the 19th century innovations of Gottlob Frege and the subsequent development of mathematical logic. To design his grammar, Pāṇini used the method of "auxiliary symbols," in which new affixes are designated to mark syntactic categories and the control of grammatical derivations. This technique was rediscovered by the logician Emil Post and is now a standard method in the design of computer programming languages.



Panini was born in Shalatula, a town near to Attock on the Indus river in present day Pakistan. The dates given for Panini are pure guesses. Experts give dates in the 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th century BC and there is also no agreement among historians about the extent of the work which he undertook. What is in little doubt is that, given the period in which he worked, he is one of the most innovative people in the whole development of knowledge. We will say a little more below about how historians have gone about trying to pinpoint the date when Panini lived. Panini was a Sanskrit grammarian who gave a comprehensive and scientific theory of phonetics, phonology, and morphology. Sanskrit was the classical literary language of the Indian Hindus and Panini is considered the founder of the language and literature. It is interesting to note that the word "Sanskrit" means "complete" or "perfect" and it was thought of as the divine language, or language of the gods.

A treatise called Astadhyayi (or Astaka ) is Panini's major work. It consists of eight chapters, each subdivided into quarter chapters. In this work Panini distinguishes between the language of sacred texts and the usual language of communication. Panini gives formal production rules and definitions to describe Sanskrit grammar. Starting with about 1700 basic elements like nouns, verbs, vowels, consonants he put them into classes. The construction of sentences, compound nouns etc. is explained as ordered rules operating on underlying structures in a manner similar to modern theory. In many ways Panini's constructions are similar to the way that a mathematical function is defined today. Joseph writes in [2]: -

In particular he suggests that algebraic reasoning, the Indian way of representing numbers by words, and ultimately the development of modern number systems in India, are linked through the structure of language. Panini should be thought of as the forerunner of the modern formal language theory used to specify computer languages. The Backus Normal Form was discovered independently by John Backus in 1959, but Panini's notation is equivalent in its power to that of Backus and has many similar properties. It is remarkable to think that concepts which are fundamental to today's theoretical computer science should have their origin with an Indian genius around 2500 years ago.

evans-experientialism.freewebspace.com...



An academic article on Panini and Computer Science, and AI

Kak. S, Bhate. S. Pan. ini's Grammar and Computer Science. Annals of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, vol. 72,
1993, pp. 79-94

An incredibly revelatory extract from this article:


It has been argued
by Ingalls, Staal, Matilal, Briggs, Kak and others1 that many contemporary
developments in formal logic, linguistics, and computer science are a rediscovery
of the work of these ancient masters. But apart from the question of
a correct history of ideas it raises the following important question of significance
to Sanskritists as well as cognitive and computer scientists: Are there
other rules in ancient Indian logic and grammar that may be of use in making
further advance in cognitive and computer sciences? A little bit of history
shows why this is a valid question. Nineteenth century Western linguists
did not see the signicance of the context-sensitive rules of Pan. ini's grammar.
In fact their fundamental importance was seen only when Pan. inian
style structures were rst introduced by Western linguists such as Chomsky
1
about thirty years ago. According to the distinguished linguist Frits Staal:
We can now assert, with the power of hindsight, that Indian linguists in the fifth century B.C. knew and understood more than Western linguists in the
nineteenth century A.D. Can one not extend this conclusion and claim that
it is probable that Indian linguists are still ahead of their Western colleagues
and may continue to be so in the next century? Quite possible; all we can say
is that it is difficult to detect something that we have not already discovered
ourselves."2



Here we see a categorical and unanimous anomaly and it is admitted by modern linguists itself. Sanskrit mathematics, logic and linguistics is more advanced than 20th century mathematics, logic and linguistics(collectively known as computer theory) and still is more advanced than 21st century computer science and is still being researched to help us in AI and natural language processing.

This only means one thing the Sanskrit civilisation is a post 21st century civilisation. As such a civilisation cannot be found in history it must be pre-glacial. I think this is the best evidence I have provided so far.

In summary we have a civilisation that has knowledge of computer science, microbiology, genetic engineering. And if we accept modern scientific studies: Astrophysics. None of this fits history as far back we can take it. Therefore it means it belongs to a pre-glacial civilisation that has become lost.

[edit on 3-4-2009 by Indigo_Child]

[edit on 3-4-2009 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Apr, 3 2009 @ 08:31 PM
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reply to post by Indigo_Child
 


Nothing is "Static" per se...All Is Dynamic...



posted on Apr, 3 2009 @ 08:40 PM
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obsession...is a portal to never ending....



posted on Apr, 3 2009 @ 08:42 PM
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reply to post by Indigo_Child
 


As noted earlier

Indigo makes a claim

The claim is challenged

Indigo blunders on ignoring all contra-opinions while coming up with some hilarious reasons why the rest of the world doesn't seem to be able to pick up on this earth shattering discovery!

When you have no evidence just keep repeating yourself, believer harder and ignore reality



posted on Apr, 3 2009 @ 08:43 PM
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reply to post by qbik2008
 


Howdy qbik2008

To where or what does this portal lead?



posted on Apr, 3 2009 @ 09:16 PM
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Hans,

A lot arguments from denial there. I am afraid all you are doing is just denying the evidence exists. When I have placed it right in front of you. So you’re kind of going against facts.

If you are not convinced, I understand. However, you are actually making truth claims about the evidence without even investigating it. That is not valid.

You say it is fake. Prove it. No, please don’t fall back on the, “You’re the claimant, therefore the burden of proof lies with you” I have already supplied ample evidence, a lot it from established scientific journals. You are making the claim “It’s all fake” therefore you have a burden of proof.

I also noted a catch 22 fallacy. You ask me for evidence before you even consider this, I provide it. Insufficient. Then you ask me for evidence again, I provide it. Insufficient. Then you ask me for evidence again, I provide it. Insufficient. This is a catch 22 fallacy. I could provide you infinite evidence and you still will be asking me for more.

You demanded that I provide you authoritative evidence. I provided you three journal articles and some articles written by academic professionals. Then you complain I am appealing to authority. Well you demanded that kind of evidence and I provided it to you, but then you objected to that kind of evidence, you are clearly committing the logical fallacy of shifting the goal post.

The irony is after all this you state:


Here is another challenge for you. Explain why the scientific world has not accepted this idea of yours - if the evidence is 'strong'?


Now you are appealing to authority and thus contradicting your own position above.


You clearly are not playing fair. Therefore until you do not investigate the information I have provided, I cannot continue any further discourse with you.

Just a few issues to clear up with you before we part until your return with either a concession or a valid refutation. The way you have asserted things to me despite knowing nothing about Sanskrit is very ignorant:


Hans: Gee a mixture of “finger measuring” and then electrical wiring, so your claiming this society had electric power? Evidence, hard evidence


Angula is an ancient Sanskrit metric unit, each unit is one finger width .

Wiki: Aṅgula (from Sanskrit अङ्गुल aṅgula - 'a finger; the thumb; a finger's breadth'[1]) is a measure equal to eight barley-corns, twelve aṅgulas making a Vitasti orᅠ span, andᅠ twenty-four a Hasta orᅠ Cubit.
One Aṅgula is believed to be equal to 3/4 Inch.



Hans: No it isn’t, it’s what people call reality, you have distorted the word for your own reasons. However you claim to find meanings that support modern science – how amazing. So this device detects what again? Your own paper says it detects Chakras?


You’re lying:

From the American heritage dictionary on the etymology of the word Chakra:

ETYMOLOGY: Sanskrit cakram, wheel, circle. See kwel-1 in Appendix I.

The dialect of Sanskrit in Anshu Bodhini is Vedic Sanskrit. The word Cakram in Sanskrit always denotes wheel or circle in it. The word Chakra is a much later Hindi word and both means wheel, circle and in esoteric Tantra texts energy vortices. The latter meaning is not even common in Hindu usage of the word. It is only common in new age lingo. In Vedic Sanskrit it never means energy vortices.


Hans: Yes it is but it says nothing about germs, you’ve made that up


Nope, the word Rakshasas in Vedic language means germ. It is explained in the Brahmanas which are exegetical works:

Kau#aki Brahmana 17, 4: “The blood sucking parasites are called Rakshases”

It is also confirmed in the most ancient Sanskrit dictionary Nirukta IV, 18: "Rakshasa is a germ from which one must protect themselves. The disinfecting rays of the sun can kill this germ."

The etymology of the word Rakshasa btw means "requires protection" i.e. we must protect ourselves from them. Later this word acquired the connotation evil/demon etc

And by the way fire can kill germs. Have you heard of something called boiling? The Sanskrit tradition were aware of germs because they would burn herbs to fumigate the hospital to kill germs, they would sterilize their medical instruments before performing operation and they would boil their water before they drink it to kill germs. I have verified this now with 6 different sources in addition to the original text I cited from.

You’re just being exceeding ignorant.



posted on Apr, 3 2009 @ 09:29 PM
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reply to post by qbik2008
 


What do you mean qbik?

To respond to your earlier post. Yes, I have rejected the word "proof" now because it is dubious. Instead just think of this thread as a catalogue of evidence. In fact when it comes to ancient and lost civilisation, this is the most evidence rich thread on this forum. I will leave the readers to arrive at their own conclusions, I have certanily arrived at mine.

Regarding 'pottery' well there is pottery around today too, so that does not mean we are not advanced. However, I understand your criticism, I myself do not beleive the IVC was a post-21st century technology, because if it was something would have remained from it. As it was not flooded, there should be advanced materials, parts of machines etc.
The reason it cannot be found is because the Aryan civilisation is pre-glacial. There was a post-21st century civilisation but more than 10,000 years ago. It was destroyed by superfloods.



[edit on 3-4-2009 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Apr, 3 2009 @ 09:30 PM
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Originally posted by Hanslune
reply to post by qbik2008
 


Howdy qbik2008

To where or what does this portal lead?


To...Never Ending...Infinitum as you may understand it...or...chasing one's tail...

I think "Oneness" is a key concept....but "Never Ending" is without "Oneness"...but at the same "time"....lol..."time"...what an imagined concept...

We are all currently stuck in a "Violence [Time] Loop"...this is important

Yes...it has been a very long time...about a year I would guess....Hanslune...you gave many good arguments to the "The Teachings of The Children of the Law of One...[The Lost Atlantean Teachings]...paraphrasing...

To be conscious and raise Consciousness...is Awareness...which leads to harmony....with the ONE....The Universal Consciousness Theory...and so on...proof is in the pudding my friend...all around us...and especially...Inside Of YOU....YOU...are a GOD...the power is always within...

A bit Schizo sounding to the "Average" Joe....agreed...

Cheers....



posted on Apr, 3 2009 @ 09:41 PM
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Originally posted by Indigo_Child
reply to post by qbik2008
 


What do you mean qbik?

I have certanily arrived at mine.

Regarding 'pottery' well there is pottery around today too, so that does not mean we are not advanced. However, I understand your criticism, I myself do not beleive the IVC was a post-21st century technology, because if it was something would have remained from it. As it was not flooded, there should be advanced materials, parts of machines etc.
The reason it cannot be found is because the Aryan civilisation is pre-glacial. There was a post-21st century civilisation but more than 10,000 years ago. It was destroyed by superfloods.



[edit on 3-4-2009 by Indigo_Child]


you are defending...and not proactively...being creative...is what I mean...and you may read into what I have said above as "Jargon"...but what I say is what I mean...



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