Proof: Advanced Ancient Indian Civilization existed

Hans: Sorry I give respect to those who earn it. You dear have not, what exactly is there to respect? Your Mara like deceptions? LOL

You've told me you are going to disrespect me. That's nice of you Hans.

Hans: Yes I agree you are not regular, essentially you are making stuff up and trying by tedious deception to avoid reality. I would ask for your money back - from your community college.

Right personal insult and discrediting my education. You are beyond charming.


As you are not having a healthy discussion with me. As you have admitted you are disrespecting me. As you have repeatedly just dismissed every post I made to you. And now you are openly insulting me. I have decided to end our discussion here. Please do not respond to any more of my posts so we can keep peace.

[edit on 5-4-2009 by Indigo_Child]

Please stop discussing each other and Stick to the Topic.

As well, the personal sniping and innuendo are not necessary


Thanks.

reply to post by Indigo_Child


Howdy Jbird

You are absolutely right I'll toe the line!

Please do not respond to any more of my posts so we can keep peace.

Hans: Still trying to dodge the hard questions huh?

Here again are the hard questions you are fleeing from – just answer them.

1. Where is the evidence for these glacial floods in Northwest India? Or do you claim a different site? But what of mother Ganges?

2. How did the glacial floods somehow miss all the neolithic hunter-gathers sites yet got every single super civilization site? Man talk about being lucky on one side and very unlucky on the other.

3. Why no signs of trade from this super civilization with other known cultures? Did they stay just in that area?

4. Where are did these floods end up at? (where are the debris)?

5. For an example the Mesopotamians were hit with massive floods at various times - hundreds of thousands of artifacts remain, there cities can be found - for the super civilization not a single item survived, nothing at all.

6. Why no sign of modifications of the terrain? No mines? No tunnels? No modification at all and of course no relics or artifacts, even indestructible items, like gold, gems, glass - all gone....swept off to where exactly Indigo?

Well done Indigo you did change your signature from saying you had proof.



[edit on 5/4/09 by Hanslune]

I changed my signature because I no longer like the word "proof" That signature is 4 years old created at the time of this thread when I was very concerned about proving things to other. I now realise this is an impossible task and thus I have changed my signature to not make any false claims to people who read it.

You asked for archeaological evidence which supports my conclusion of the superfloods which lead to the destruction of the Aryan super civilisation and it dispersing all around the world. Is this sufficient:

www.ncdc.noaa.gov...

Climate History: Exploring Climate Events and Human Development
The Past 10,000 years: Glacial Retreat, Agriculture and Civilization
As glaciers and icecaps melted at the end of the last Ice Age, sea levels rose and dramatically changed the world, perhaps nowhere more dramatically than in what is now the Black Sea, where, according to some researchers, a flood 7600 years ago filled the basin.

Evidence for the flood was confirmed in 1996 when Columbia University marine geologists William B.F. Ryan and Walter C. Pitman proposed a solution to the mystery that archeologists and paleoclimatologists have wrestled with since the early 1800s with the story of the deluge that appears in the Book of Genesis was found to exist in other cultures not associated with the Judeo-Christian Bible such as the Epic of Gilgamesh (Ryan, et. al., 1997).

As sea levels rose, the waters of the Mediterranean began to flow into the basin that is now the Black Sea. According to the National Geographic, "funneled through the narrow Bosporus, the water hit the Black Sea with 200 times the force of Niagara Falls. Each day the Black Sea rose about six inches (15 centimeters), and coastal farms were flooded." (See Ballard and the Black Sea).
Not all researchers support the conclusions of Ryan and Pitman, however. In an article entitled "Persistent Holocene Outflow from the Black Sea to the Eastern Mediterranean Contradicts Noah's Flood Hypothesis" (Aksu, et. Al., 2002), researchers suggest a progressive reconnection between the two water bodies over the past 12,000 years, and that there was no catastrophic event, but rather ongoing inflow and outflow from the Black Sea Basin. Nevertheless, the controversy continues with explorer Robert Ballard discovering evidence of a flooded settlement 95 meters beneath the modern day sea level off the north coast of Turkey.

If a massive flood did occur, it may have played a role in the migration of people away from the region, possibly helping to spread the Indo-European languages-- from which Sanskrit and many European languages including English evolved-- to India and Europe. Linguists who study the origin of languages note that migrations of people from the eastern part of the Black Sea around 6,000 years ago include three eastern branches-- going toward Iran, India and Central Asia respectively-- and two western migrations-- the first going directly towards Greece while the second went around the Caspian Sea towards Europe where many Western languages emerged from. For more, see the article "The Early History of the Indo-European Languages" by Thomas V. Gamkrelidze and V. V. Ivanov that appeared in Scientific American, March 1990.

It was in the centuries following this period that major civilizations began to develop around irrigation systems that allowed agricultural cities to form in the semiarid regions of the Middle East in what Peter Drucker (1966) has called the "First Technological Revolution." According to Drucker, the domestication of water through irrigation led to formal writing and number systems as people began to systematically document history and commerce, and even the concept of individuality and citizenship evolved from this technological revolution. (See "The First Technological Revolution and Its Lessons", Technology and Culture, Spring 1966. First presented on December 29, 1965, as the presidential address to the Society for the History of Technology, San Francisco.)

If it is not sufficient I would appreciate it you don't just assert it, but demonstrate with a valid reason just to show you have not outright dismissed the evidence, as I feel you have been doing from the start.

Indigo

If it is not sufficient I would appreciate it you don't just assert it, but demonstrate with a valid reason just to show you have not outright dismissed the evidence, as I feel you have been doing from the start.

Hans: Well lets see what you highlighted

If a massive flood did occur, it may have played a role in the migration of people away from the region, possibly helping to spread the Indo-European languages-- from which Sanskrit and many European languages including English evolved-- to India and Europe. Linguists who study the origin of languages note that migrations of people from the eastern part of the Black Sea around 6,000 years ago include three eastern branches-- going toward Iran

Hans: okay so if the floods occurs the people may have moved out around 6000 years ago, so 4,000 BC, or the data from the story at 7,600 years. That doesn't mesh with your claim of the Aryan civilization being destroyed prior to 10,000 year ago. The black sea rise wouldn't have destroyed an advanced civilization. Nor would it have destroyed all evidence of its existence - which has been your claim.

Perhaps you'd like to explain how this could possibly support your position?

You need to acount for an advance civilization being completedly destroyed so that absolutely nothing survives this evidence supports a rise of the black sea, destruction of the villages on the rim (which have been seen and they are not 'advanced').

Correct me but don't the documents (which you won't let us see) say that the civilization was in the subcontinent? How can your civilization be around the black sea when the Rig-veda talks of the Ganges?



[edit on 5/4/09 by Hanslune]

Interesting that both Indigo and Hans...are dichotomies...in "Thought Form"...and nothing can ever be gained from the use of "Coneptualization" vs "Proof"...it is in the harmonious marriage of "Both"...is where we begin to "Ascend in our Consciousness and Awareness"...

this is Truth in its most basic essence and form...Hans...you have much to learn...of the "unprovable" side of things...good arguments nonetheless...

"Proof" I have become aware of...is something that we are "Programmed" to believe in from birth...and you have fallen into the trap unfortunately...of the clever Illuminati that designed this very "Thought Form"....The Illuminati have created "Compartmentalized" modes of thinking..."if it is not "Provable then it does not exist"...I see right through your "Manufactured Charm"...wake up!!!...is the the most obvious use of terms...and yet I feel pain for you...I hope you can begin to use your mind...I am not saying that your "Provable" Knowledge Thought Form goes way beyond what I have researched...as I am a "newbie" Awakened One...but Knowledge is again quite subjective..A wise man does not need extensive knowledge on any given Provable Fact...in fact it has been quite the opposite for those that have been "Enlightened"...they acquire knowledge through contact with the "Universal Consciousness"...should this journey be something that you so endeavor to take upon yourself...the Power always lies "Within" and not "Without"...please focus and stop the inflammation process within Indigo...as she suffers...so to do we all...we are all ONE...this is an "absolute"...and if you can clarify further on what I have said...any comments are welcomly received...and Conceptualized...nothing is "Proof"...that is an absolute in itself...which is a Cath 22 in and of its self...but not really when you begin to let go...

Hans...I am not trying to discredit the vast amount of Research that you have done...but I am asking you to try a different "Thought Form"...it may be more beneficial to yourself and others around you....something like the "Yes Man" theory....LoL....LoL....LoL....

Love and Peace...and wonderful Light...beyond the imagination...

reply to post by qbik2008



Howdy qbik

Hans...I am not trying to discredit the vast amount of Research that you have done...but I am asking you to try a different "Thought Form"...it may be more beneficial to yourself and others around you....something like the "Yes Man" theory....

Hans: Ah the believe everything to make others happy concept, sorry no, I'm not interested in a reality were everything is thought to be real and you cannot question anything.

We cannot known everything but by using facts we can establish, in some areas, what is real and what is not.

Under your system we must believe everything. I once spoke with a guy who was convinced that Beligium had started WW I and WWII and would soon start WWIII he did this by quote mining Belgian officials and in particular King Leopold and his actions in the Congo free state. He strung all these words from different people from over a century and if you didn't know better his case almost sounded legitimate.

He was a complete crackpot, I was able to prove - well not to him - that such a concept was nutty. As I understand your concept I would have to accept that Belgium might have started WWII......I think not.

I'll be gone a complete of weeks so keep your brains warm.

reply to post by Hanslune


Hanslume,

I think it is important that you acknowledge we don't have enough evidence either way, maritime archeaology is still rather recent and the evidence around the world is scant to draw any conclusions. Most of the Earth as you should know is 70% underwater. We know from some evidence that lands often become submerged and once most of Europe was under water. The above article examines areas around the Black sea shows thar great floods did take place. Similar evidence exists for the Americas. So it is safe to assume these floods are not local. According to Graham Hancock in his recent bestseller, "Underworld" evidences of cataclysmic floods around 10,000 years ago can be found all over the world and he especially noted how dramatically it affected India:

www.theosophical.org.uk...

Research since the 1970s suggests that there were three global super-floods: 15,000 to 14,000 years ago; 12,000 to 11,000 years ago; and 8,000 to 7,000 years ago. The second period ties in with the date Plato ascribed in the Timaeus and Critias to the destruction by earthquakes and flooding of Atlantis, and with the Tamil myth of the submerging of the fabled land of Kumari Kandam. There is also strong evidence that nearly half the total meltwater released at the end of the last Ice Age was concentrated into these three relatively short periods. Such events would have had a momentous impact on the human inhabitants at that time, leaving a marked impression on oral tradition, the original transmitter of all ancient myths.

The Vedas themselves, however, contain an account of their creation: the story of Manu, India's Noah. Hancock draws close ties between the story of Manu, that of the Sumerian flood survivor Ziusudra, the ancient yuga theory of the cyclical destruction and rebirth of worlds, and the Seven Sages, a group of "wise men" whose duties include the preservation of the knowledge contained within the Vedas:

the ancient traditions of India itself . . . explain that Manu and the Seven Sages retreated to the Himalayas from a place that was not the Himalayas at the time of a terrible oceanic flood, and that they brought with them from their antediluvian homeland not only the Vedas but also all the 'seeds' that would be necessary to re-establish permanent food-producing settlements. -- p. 174
Hancock goes on to speculate, based on analysis of mythological and scientific evidence concerning glaciation and flooding in the Himalayan region, that "the sages who composed at least some of the verses of the Vedas could have been in the Himalayas 12,000 years ago to witness the end of the Younger Dryas," a sudden unexplained global climactic freezing. But this "does not fit in at all with the much later date that scholars habitually assign to composition of the Rig Veda" (p. 196). Speculating further, the author explores the profound reasons underpinning civilization. Although the modern West is dominated by material and economic theories of human life, India with its

The first of Underworld's many accounts of underwater expeditions begins in India as the author, collaborating with divers from India's National Institute of Oceanography (NIO), dives at the northwest coastal town of Dwarka, sacred to Krishna. Sunken ruins lie off the coast, but it is difficult to match the date of the archeology (1700 or 1800 BC) to the Indian traditional date of 3100 BC when ancient legend holds that Dwarka became submerged and Krishna's death commenced the kali yuga. Ruins dating to and before that time are found only in deeper water. Hancock and NIO divers also explored a mysterious U-shaped masonry structure at a depth of 23 meters, 5 km off Poompuhar in the Bay of Bengal. Inundation maps suggest that it would have been submerged about 11,000 years ago. Subsidence may account for this object's extreme depth, but without further research its origin, location, and purpose remain a mystery. Hancock also investigates the myth of Kumari Kandam, an antediluvian civilization said to have existed thousands of years ago around south India. It is believed to have been a great center of learning with magnificent academies which may have left a legacy of cartographic and astronomical knowledge which exists today in the ancient Indian texts. Interestingly, the author spoke to local fishermen who described often diving to free their nets caught on underwater temples with columns, pyramidal pagodas, and buildings with doorways.

In the Postscript are details of the remarkable find in May 2001 of what looks like two underwater cities, one extending for 9 km underneath the Gulf of Cambay in North West India at depths of between 25 and 40 meters and at distances of up to 40 km from shore. Detected using side-scan sonar, the images produced reveal clear foundations to geometrical structures and walls rising 3 meters above the sea bed. Both cities lie along the courses of ancient rivers, and remains of a suspected 600 meter long dam have been discovered. Man-made artifacts have been retrieved by dredging, including what may be jewelry, stone tools, pottery, and figurines which carbon dating indicate are 9,500 years old. Inundation maps give the date of submergence as between 7,700 and 6,900 years ago, but the cities and culture that built them are likely to be considerably older.

It would appear from there above that there is considerable evidence for these super floods which submerged almost continents. An advanced civilisation could be wiped out by such floods. Incidentally, Hancock also agrees that this Aryan civilisation is pre-glacial. As I theorised earlier after the great floods they had dispersed all over the world and this is the Indo-European migration talked about in history, but nobody really know how and why it happened. It also explains why urban cultures were so quickly established after the floods, because knowledge traditions survived in the form of oral traditiins, the strongest of which was the Vedic one. I believe this theory is very consistent with the evidence:

1) World myths of global floods
2) Evidence of global floods
3) Evidence of pre-flood civilisation and cities

[edit on 6-4-2009 by Indigo_Child]

By the way: As you know my main evidence for supporting my theory is the Sanskrit tradition and what I say is anomolous knowledge.

How do you account for a perfectly refined natural language which happens to be a machine-code language with the power of a turing computing machine, which is capable of precise knowledge representation and many mathematical functions. Do you think they just appear out of nowhere?

[edit on 6-4-2009 by Indigo_Child]

Originally posted by Indigo_Child

Also, linking to claims at several holistic healing clinic advertising sites is not "backing up your claims" about the Ayurveda.

Harte

That is perhaps a bit dishonest. The links I gave you were not all holistic healing clinics but from certified experts in the fields of Ayurveda, as well as a medical journal article...

Me dishonest?

Hardly.
From your first source (Link)

About Our Clinic
Dhanwantri Ayurveda is an ISO 9001-2000 certified Clinic. Dhanwantri Ayurevade-Care Clinic is devoted to the age old Indian System of Medicine with its holistic approach to health care. Our clinic has all the modern facilities required for administrating different types of treatments like Panchakarma Therapy, Yoga Therapy, and Acupuncture Therapy etc. Besides these extensive therapies, consultations with our doctor for different conditions/ailments, according to the various branches of Ayurveda, are also available.

From your second source (Link)

Nagarjuna Ayurvedic Panchakarma center is a center located in cavelossim, Goa. This center is fully equipped with all the facilities required for an ideal ayurvedic hospital. It has admission facility with well furnished and comfortable rooms. The environment is just like a resort and not as health center. Practicing and propagating Ayurveda is the only aim of this center. The center is operational with specialized and talented doctors in Ayurveda with sufficient experience and the paramedical staff having trained masseurs, cook having experience in Indian healthy diet with a delicious taste and a yoga instructor having very good experience in yoga teaching. We are all a family and staying with us you will surely enjoy the goan hospitality and a family environment. The chief consultants are Dr. Pranav and Dr. Sneha Bhagwat.

From your third source (Link)

Ama is a peculiar concept in Ayurveda (for which modern chemistry has no correlate). It is an important factor in a cause of disease and in modification of disease process. Role of Ama - Ama originates from improperly digested toxic particles that clog the channels in your body. Some of these channels are physical and include the intestines, lymphatic system, arteries and veins, capillaries, and genitourinary tract. Others are nonphysical channels called nadis through which your energy flows.

"Non physical channels?" Riiiight.
From your fourth source (Link)

Charaka Club in New York completes a century.

A short commentary on a now defunct "club" started in 1898. Several "papers published" by club menbers - all admittedly speculative, apparently, with the most recent in 1941, and the question is asked, what happened to this club?
IMO, it disbanded with the advent of modern medicine.

From your fifth link (Link)

A famous grammar of Sanskrit was compiled by Panini, who flourished around 500 B.C., and his work Astadhyayi has been studied in India for centuries, inspiring many commentaries. The prestige of Panini's grammar is so great that the earlier grammars of the language were lost. Panini's grammar uses a variety of formal techniques including recursion, transformations, and metarules. Here we examine one specific feature of his structure that has been used also in the representation of high-level languages.

Panini's grammatical reconfiguration of Sanskrit occurred around 500 BC. There were earlier, shoddier grammars. How does your hypothesis explain away the existence of earlier grammars for, what, 100,000 years until Panini did this?

The majority of your "documentation" consists of people that have an economic vested interest in maintaining the charade of holistic medical apprioaches.

For example, there exists no "cure" for diabetes, yet one of your sources claims to have exactly this.

Please explain this departure from reality.

Harte

reply to post by Harte



Hi Harte, it seems you think holistic healthcare, which concentrates on diet, food and exercise is a bad thing.

Just a point on nadis and chakras(energy centres) etc which form a part of Indian medicine. I am sure you are aware that the Eastern physiology is different from Western physiology, they identify what is called an energy body and they consider disease to be energy imbalances and psychosomatic in origin. Ayurveda recognises 5 levels of body: annamaya kosha(physical body) pranamaya kosha(energy body), manomaya kosha(mental body, i.e., ones thoughts and emotions) vijnanamaya kosha(functional body) and finally anandamaya kosha(the soul)

Ayurveda does not neglect the annamaya kosha, though considers it rather important and a lot of Ayurvedic texts concentrate on physical treatment, but they subordinate it to higher levels of body. So a disease in Ayurvedic theory will have the following components:

1) Physical
2) Energetic
3) Mental
4) Functional
5) Spiritual

This basically says that if is there is something wrong with you(whether it is internal or external) it will be a physical thing that can be observed in the body, but what is physical will have a corresopnding engery state(prana/chi/ki) this energy state will have a corresponding mental state, this in turn will have a corresponding functional state, which in turn will have a consciousness state. Theoretically, you can treat every single disease through consciousness, but most people lack this power. The others levels, however, mental and emotionlal, energetic and physical we can control. A positive attitude for example can do wonders in healing disease and a strong self-faith can bring about powerful placebo-effects(mental layer) Also correct posture and breathing can also contribute to healing. Although Ayurveda recognises all these other layers, most of its emphasis is on physical treatment. Hence why it also has a very strong school of surgery.

Ayurveda and its sister scence Yoga has undergone many clinical studies and its shown to have very high effiacy and beneficial effects. It is safe to say they work. I did say at the start that Ayurveda, pretty much like everything in the Sanskrit tradition is based on metaphysics and mind-body-soul unity. So it very different from the Western tradition. Also bear in mind, while metaphysics may not be palpable to you, our science today is metaphysical. It agrees quite strongly with Ayurveda in many areas. Such as Ayurveda's claim that all biological states have corresponding energy states and recent biology would attest that these in turn having corresponding mental and emotional states(psychosomatic). I know of one prolific professor at the University of Manchester who teaches Medicine there that frequently gives talks on Ayurveda and Yoga and backs it up with modern medical science. So Ayurveda isn't as objectionable as you made out.



Regarding Panini. It is not the case that previous grammars were more primitive, Panini references several grammarians from the past to compose his work. It is the case that most of the previous grammars have been lost and those extant were not comprehensive. Panini was doing the same thing Charaka was doing for Ayurveda, he was compiling previous knowledge and systematizing it to make it easier to access and understand. The same tradition repeats through all the Indian Philosophical schools. Each school has a founder who systematizes previous knowledge in the form of Sutras or aphorisms.
These are known as Shastras(sciences)

As regards to Panini's dates of 500BCE. It is a a pure guess. His dates vary from 700BCE, to 600BCE, to 500BCE. It's the same with every founder of India's scientific schools. Charaka dates can vary as considerably as 300BCE too 300AD. In my reading on Indian ancient history I have found so many varying dates from differing sources, it has been quite frustrating! It's very controversial. Part of this has to with what I said earlier of early Indologists trying to fit Sanskrit history into the 1000BCE bracket because Indian dating conflicted with their own records. But modern historians strongly dispute this now, and a lot of dates are being pushed back by millenias.

[edit on 6-4-2009 by Indigo_Child]

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
reply to post by Harte

 

Hi Harte, it seems you think holistic healthcare, which concentrates on diet, food and exercise is a bad thing.

No, not a bad thing.

I consider it not to be health care.

Originally posted by Indigo_ChildRegarding Panini. It is not the case that previous grammars were more primitive, Panini references several grammarians from the past to compose his work. It is the case that most of the previous grammars have been lost and those extant were not comprehensive.

SNIP

Each school has a founder who systematizes previous knowledge in the form of Sutras or aphorisms.
These are known as Shastras(sciences)

I know about Shastras.

Look, you've provided some info on a person that was a genius. India, IMO, has seen far greater geniuses than Panini.

You've heard of Srinivasa Ramanujan, I'm sure.

He may have been the greatest mathematician that ever lived.

Had he lived longer, I have no doubt at all that he would have vastly surpassed the accomplishments of Panini.

Are you going to claim that Ramanujan was an anomaly?

Originally posted by Indigo_ChildAs regards to Panini's dates of 500BCE. It is a a pure guess. His dates vary from 700BCE, to 600BCE, to 500BCE.

These minor differences don't matter. What matters is that the structure of Sanskrit prior to Panini was not what it was afterwards. And it was ithe afterwards that was a useful example of language applications to programming. Like Hans said, mathematics and logical thinking often are established centuries before their more modern applications are discovered.

For example, the mathematics of waves, using either type - waveform equations or algebraic analysis through matrix equations - were both developed and almost completely explored centuries ago.
Yet both methods (either one) are what we use to calculate the quantum probabilities of a set of quantum states of a particle. This led to the development of transistors.
Yet there have never been any transistors found that date to prior to the late 1940s.

Harte

reply to post by Indigo_Child


You mentioned that Diabetes is uncurable. In allopathic medicine, it indeed is incurable, but Ayurvedic medicine does offer cures, and in cases where it cannot cure it, it offers far more effective healing than Western medicine. Ayurveda has cures and better healing strategies for most diseases that are considered uncurable: arthiritis, heart disease etc. It has a very extensive database of diseases which is on par wth modern databases. As I said earlier: The West is behind. "Modern" is a myth.

Ayurveda have analysed Diabetes in far more scientific detail than modern medicine has, and its treatment is far more comprehensive than modern medicine. The analytical standards of Ayurveda are similar to every other Sanskrit science; incredibly precise. Let us take a look at how it categorises and analyses Diabetes:

It is A bit heavy on Sanskrit jargon, but meanings will become clear as you read it. I will quote from this source the sections which are relevant, and I will provide my commentary in notes:

Aetiology

The main causes of prameha (diabetes) are lack of exercise and improper food habits in excess food intake which falls in the category of ushna, snigdha and guru are the primal cause of this disease – fish, curd are good examples. Foods that increase kapha, medhas and moothra(urine)
are the etiological factors for prameha.

Physical Classifications

For the management of this disease – prameha (diabetes) can be listed in two categories:

1) Apatharpana uthaja prameha: describing the lean diabetic and
2) Santharpana uthaja prameha: relating the obese diabetic.

Aetiological classification of diabetic patients

1) Sahaja prameha (congenital)
2) Apathyanimittaja prameha (due to over eating and poor habits)

Dosha(Disease) classification

Though prameha is a tridoshaja vyadhi, the relative predominance of any one dosha and dooshya enables its classification in to Vathaja, Pithaja and Kaphaja pramehas. These have further been classified in to twenty sub categories in all the three classics of Ayurveda. Kaphaja and Pittaja prameha have been sub classified in to ten types and six types
respectively. These sixteen types have the physical characteristics of urine that is colour, density and volume depending up on the different gunas of Kapha and Pitta. Vataja prameha has been
sub classified in to four types depending up on dhathu being excreted through urine. The above 20 types are classified on the basis of colour and physical characteristics of urine. The above 20 types of prameha are the different types of prameha can also be correlated with a
systemic urological and nephrological conditions. The above theory is well described by all acharyas by general prodromal symptoms for all types of pramehas in which sweetness of urine is the common and important symptom.

In our practice we could be classify prameha according to dosha predominance. They are

1) kapahja,
2) pithaja,
3) vathaja,
4) kapha-pithaja,
5) kapha-vathaja,
6) pitha-vathaja, and
7) vatha-pitha-kaphaja.

In these types sannipatha, kevala vathaja and some stages of kapha-vthaja and pitha-vathaja can be considered as IDDM. And others are considered as NIDDM.

Symptoms

Prodromal Symptoms of prameha have been explained in detail by all the acharyas especially in Brihathrayies:

They are as follows

1. Sweda Profuced - sweating
2. Angagandham - Foul smell of the body
3. Anga shidhilathwam - Looseness the body
4. Sayyasna swapnasukhabhishangithwam - Feeling of lethargy
5. Hridayopadeham - Feeling of some thing coated
or heaviness of heart
6. Netropadeham - Feeling of some thing coated
on eyes
7. Jhwopadeham - sensation of a coated
tongue
8. Shravanopadeham - Feeling of coating on ears
9. Anga ghanathwam - Heaviness of body parts
10. Keshathivridhi - Excessive growth of hairs
11. Nakhathivridhi - Excessive growth of Nails
12. Sheetha priyathwam - Affinity towards cold
13. Gala shosham - Dryness of throat
14. Thalu shosham - Dryness of palate
15. Asya madhuryam - Sweet taste in mouth
16. Karadaham Burning - sensation of palms
17. Pada daham Burning - sensation of soles
18. Moothra madhuryam - Sweetness of urine

General Symptoms:

The characteristic features of all types of prameha are PRABHOOTHA and AAVILA MOOTHRATHA & MEDO DUSHTI LAKSHANAS - [ excessive urination & turbidity in urine and symptoms of vitiated medodhatu

Classification by dosas(kapha, pitta and vatta)

Note: As mentioned earlier Ayurveda considers each person to have a personal constitution which is made up of the factors of kapa, pitta and vata(metaphysics: all phenomenon is the permutations of three fundamental forces/potentials) While, everybody will have a unique mixture of these three factors, most people will have a predomniance of one them. Likewise diseases too will have a predomniance of a factor.

Kaphaja

Avipakam – indigestion
Aruchi - Loss of appetite
Chardi - Vomiting tendency
Athinidra - Excessive sleep
Kasam - Cough
Peenasam - Cold with running nose

Pittaja

Vasthimehanyotoda - Pain in Bladder & urinary path
Mushkavatharanam - Pain in testes
Jwara - Fever
Daham - Burning sensation
Trishna - Thirst
Amlika - Acidity
Moorcha - Giddiness
Vitbhedanam - Loose Motion
Hridayashoola - Pain in heart region
Nidranasam - Loss of sleep

Vathaja

Udavartham - Upward movement of vatha.
Kambam - Tremor
Hridgraham - Gripping pain in chest region
Lolatha - Affinity
Soolam - Pain
Anidratha - Insomnia
Sosha - Wasting
Kasam - Cough
Swasam - Difficulty to breath
Badhapureeshathwa - Constipation


Prognosis

This classification has been given by Charaka. The three types of prameha.
1. Sadhya - curable
2. Yapya - Palliable
3. Asadhya - Incurable

Treatment

According to Ayurveda the line of treatment of prameha is strictly on individuals constitution. A special case sheet to analyse diabetes is developed as follows

1) The prakrithi(constitution) of the patient
2) Dosha predominance of disease - which factor is predmoniant
3) Dooshya vitiation
4) Obstruction in srothus(vessels)
5) Manasika Prakrithi - mental constitution
6) Ahara & Vihara
7) Hereditary factors etc... - family history

This case sheet gives the profile of the patient & the pathology of the disease in accordance based with classical diagnostic skills in accordance with the classical way of diagnosis. After grouping the patient into different prakrithi, we were able to fix the line of treatment according to the types of the disease.

In general Type 1 Diabetes Mellitus [Vathaja prameha]Patients are advised to have Bhrimhana medication & diet which increases dhathus(tissues) in the body

Line of treatment

In Type 2 Diabetes, obese diabetic patient with optimal body strength having intense increase of doshas, Purification of the body is advocated This is dependent on dosha predominance [Kaphaja are adviced to have emetics, Pittaja are advised to have purgation.]

1) Snehanam [ prescription of oils internally & externally
2) Sodhana [Purification therapy under three catagory]
a. Vamanam
b. Virechanam
c. Vasthi (This process is the application of medicine through the anal route.This is
indicated only in specific condition
3) Samanam
4) Pathya – Apathyas
5) Vyayamam (exercises)

In strong prameha patients, but with increased doshas, sodhana chikilsa is prescribed. The Purification Therapies are the formost treatment in this condition. Snehana karma should be done before giving sodhana chikilsa. Generally swedana is contra indicated in Prameha as swethathi pravruthy (profuced sweating) is one of the main symptom of prameha. Moreover
swedana induces kleda which is a causative factor for this disease. Different snehanas(oliations) are advised in different stages of prameha.

Drug treatment:

Various Medicated ghees and oils to be administered on the paitent

Drug preparations:

– Arjuna Sarshapa for Kaphaja types;
– Arjuna Grutham for pitha type and
– Arjuna Thailam for Vatha type.

After snehana, one should undergo virchanam or vamana or both.This is determined on the predominant doshas. This can be done by classical shodhana oushadha. After shodhana chikilsa, shamana chikitsa is advised.

Note: The above is repeated at different intervals based on regular check-ups of the paitent.

Prescription



The drastic disease diabetes can be controlled by giving comprehensive attention to 3 aspects

They are

1) Ahara (Diet)
2) Vihara ( Exercise)
3) Aushadha (medicine)

The role of ahara & Vihara are equally or even more important in diabetes to control blood sugar level as well as to prevent complications of this disease.

[edit on 6-4-2009 by Indigo_Child]

[edit on 6-4-2009 by Indigo_Child]

Clinical Study using Ayurvedic theory and practice to treat Diabetes

Note: From the same source as above:

Paitent Sample

30 diagnosed cases of diabetes mellitus were selected.70 percentage were males & 30 percentage were females. The group of population was between 40-60 years. All participants were non insulin dependent following a protocol of western medicine [ allopathic medicine]

Treatment schedule

First stage : All patients were given,snehana for 5-10 days.The medicines used were

– Arjuna Thaila
– Arjuna ghritha &
– ArjunaSarshapa

The dose varies from 25 to 50 millilitres every day at bed time.

Second stage : Virechana was done in all cases with various virechana oushadhas depending on the condition.

Third stage: Samana oushadas like kashayas were prescribed for two weeks powders and liquids were also given of better results.
All medicines were specially made for this specific populations indicated in different samhithas(Ayurvedic medical encyclopedia)

Parameters for study:

Subjective parameters such as numbness, tingling sensation, pain burning sensation, limb weakness, thirst, body weakness and over sweating etc . Along with blood sugar level, urine sugar level total insulin assay and C-peptide assay etc were also tested & documented before & after
the treatment .

Results

Among 30 cases with allopathic medication,21 showed excellent response after shodhana it self. During shamana chikitsa, blood sugar level showed a little increase initially on stopping modern medication. This changed to normal gradually. The complaints also decreased. On continuation of samana chikitsa .both F.B.S. & P.P.B.S. attained normal level and the
complaints of the patients also were relieved in a period of three to four months. Samana chikitsa and periodical sodhana chikitsa were continued in these patients .For the next three years of treatment continued,and the blood sugar as well as urine sugar levels were noted normal. There after the medicine was stopped completely. For next one year after the stopping
of medicines not even a single patient reported the complaints of diabetes mellitus either physically or analytically. These patients have been checking their blood sugar level regularly at periodical intervals.

Conclusion

It is critical to recognise that ancient ayurvedic scholars had an in depth knowledge and understanding of diabetes. They were wellversed in the management of this disease and had indepth skills in working with its complications. Insulin dependent diabetec individuals have to be treated very very cautiously and its management has to be metticulous. The clinical trials conducted at this institution for the past decades brings forth the following conclusions.

1) Ayurvedic line of treatment for diabetes is very fundamental & it should be followed as a
course of treatment.
2) According to ayurvedic principles, there is no single drug remedy for diabetes
3) Snehana & shodhana are the basic treatment methods which should be employed in all patients, depending upon the condition
4) Shamana treatment is given after the above mentioned treatments, using different combinations of herbal medicines as per the condition
5) Classical line of treatment is the best way to approach the treatment of diabetes
6) The non insulin type can be very effectively controlled & sugar level can be braught to normal within three weeks by the above treatment. It can be maintained at normal level by the continuous use of ayurvedic medicines. Classical medication as well as our special medicines are safe in the management because these medicines will not lead to
hypoglycemic episodes or other complications.

Comments: There are similar clinical studies for most major diseases and they all show that Ayurveda has very high efficacy in treating them. Thus clearly indicating Ayurveda is a superior form of medicine to modern allopathic medicine in treating most major diseases. It is not just superior in its methods of treating, but in its prognosis and diagnosis. Its classification method is incredibly precise and scientific. This is what I would expect of a superior scientific culture.

[edit on 6-4-2009 by Indigo_Child]

reply to post by Indigo_Child

This may very well be an immortal thread, as the OP is timestamped 12-1-2005 @ 10:17 AM !!

Me, I'm quite new around here, and have only read the OP and a few others posts in this thread.

Then I did an ATS 'keyword search' on the term 'vajra,' got about 20 or so hits, and I don't believe any of them were in thread. Anyway, if the following info has already been posted here, my apologies.

There is this 'ritual implement' the Tibetans use in some of their 'ceremonies.' It's called a 'vajra.' Which, to the best of my understanding translates as, 'thunderbolt scepter.'

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/fc8ed1abc45f.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/4d3f41928666.jpg[/atsimg]
I've always considered these to be 'examples' of 'ancient advanced technology.' Nowadays, of course, they no longer 'operate as originally desgined' but have become 'symbols' of 'power' that, somehow, the Tibetan people still 'retain' in their 'cultural memory.'

Just, my opinion, of course.

I also have traveled in India, by the way, and to my mind, saw 'plenty' of 'evidence' that that there was 'advanced technological influence' somewhere in India's 'remote' past.

After all, the Vedas do claim they 'go back' to a time in history when 'human knowledge was perfected.'

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Clinical Study using Ayurvedic theory and practice to treat Diabetes

Note: From the same source as above:

Which is?

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Clinical Study using Ayurvedic theory and practice to treat Diabetes

All participants were non insulin dependent following a protocol of western medicine [ allopathic medicine]

~ ~ ~

Among 30 cases with allopathic medication,21 showed excellent response after shodhana it self. During shamana chikitsa, blood sugar level showed a little increase initially on stopping modern medication.

What modern medication? It was already stated they were non insulin dependent and were therefore controlling their diabetes by diet.

I also see no mention of any control for comparison with. Sorry, but it sound like a sham to me.

[edit on 7-4-2009 by Essan]

reply to post by Essan


In this particular study they had no control group. In this study they just took before and after readings of patients who were already receiving allopathic treatment, and then gradually discontinued the allopathic treatment and replaced it with Ayurvedic treatment. This is how Ayurvedic practitioners tend to heal their paitents.

There is no sham here, I can produce more clinical studies if you like.

reply to post by visible_villain


Thanks for the vote of confidence there. The Vajra is indeed an electric bolt weapon. It is used in Indian literature in two ways, one in the Veda as a metaphor for the deity Indra's who smites the clouds with his thunder bolt and the other as literally a weapon used in the epic texts.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Aetiology
The main causes of prameha (diabetes) are lack of exercise and improper food habits in excess food intake which falls in the category of ushna, snigdha and guru are the primal cause of this disease – fish, curd are good examples.

Putting it as plainly as possible, the above is simply not the case. Fish and curd do not cause diabetes.

In fact, these two items are useful in managing diabetes if one chooses to do so through dietary methods.

Originally posted by Indigo_Child
In Type 2 Diabetes, obese diabetic patient with optimal body strength having intense increase of doshas, Purification of the body is advocated This is dependent on dosha predominance [Kaphaja are adviced to have emetics, Pittaja are advised to have purgation.]

This is oly one form of Type II diabetes.

It is expected that an ancient system such as this would treat this sort of disease with diet (and magical oils that probably do some good in most cases.)

However, were I to follow this course of treatment my life would be cut short so, thanks but no thanks.

Harte