Proof: Advanced Ancient Indian Civilization existed

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posted on Jan, 12 2005 @ 09:17 AM
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I present the following as absolute proof that a more advanced Indian technological society existed thousands of years ago. I consider the sum of the evidence as incontrovertible.

Ancient Indian literature is teeming with references to flying vehicles, weapons of mass destruction and advanced technology. Now, modern man has called this mythology. However, the writers of these ancients epics and documents call it history. As soon as one discards this unfounded arrogance, and is ready to test the veracity of this literature as history, he/she will discover that the advanced technology is described in a practical and empirical sense as opposed to the theoretical or fictional sense. Not only that, it accords in large degrees with modern scientific principles and technology. Example: In the Vynamika Shastra, real-time television is produced by a set of mirrors that recieve light, then worked on by electricity, which is then sent through and a tube and an image is projected onto a chemically-coated screen. It need not be mentioned that this is the actual mechanism on which televisions work.

Now, if the technology described here is nothing but the imagination of a tree-dwelling primitive man, why does it work?

Weapons and Technology

In fact, this is not the only reference to technology that resembles our own. There are literally hundreds of references to technology like our own, and also, that surpass our own. They fall under two categories: Astras(weapons) and yantras(machines)

The types of weapons:

Brahmaastras(Brahma's weapon)
Agniastras(Fire weapon)
Suryaastra(Sun Weapon)
Indraastra(Indra's weapon)
Narayananastra(Vishu's weapon)
Varunasutra(Water weapon)

Each astra has it's own effects and they evoke the power of the elements they are associated with. The most feared weapons were the Narayanaastra and the Brahmaastra. They were the equivalent of our weapons of mass destruction.

The Narayanaastra was a thought-seeking weapon that would destroy anything that had a thought it was programmed to destroy. It is described being used in the Mahabharata war, as Krishna was familar with it, he asked his side to all cast down their weapons and surrender to the weapon, and it will not affect them.

The Brahmastra was the most powerful weapon known and was rarely ever used. It contained the power of the universe and it could cause massive destruction. It could be likened to a modern-day nuclear weapon, in fact, it probably IS a nuclear weapon. Here is a passage from the Drona Purva describing it's use:

Gurkha, flying a swift and powerful vimana
hurled a single projectile charged with the power
of the Universe. An incandescent column of
smoke and flame, as bright as ten thousand suns, rose with
all its splendor.

It was an unknown weapon, an iron thunderbolt, a gigantic
messenger of death, which reduced to ashes the entire race
of the Vrishnis and the Andhakas.

The corpses were so burned as to be unrecognizable.
Hair and nails fell out; Pottery broke without apparent cause,
and the birds turned white.

...After a few hours all foodstuffs were infected...
...to escape from this fire the soldiers threw
themselves in streams to wash themselves and their
equipment."

Dense arrows of flame, like a great shower, issued
forth upon creation, encompassing the enemy...
A thick gloom swiftly settled upon the Pandava hosts.
All points of the compass were lost in darkness.
Fierce wind began to blow upward, showering dust and gravel.

Birds croaked madly... the very elements seemed disturbed.
The earth shook, scorched by the terrible violent heat of this
weapon.
Elephants burst into flame and ran to and fro in a frenzy...
over a vast area, other animals crumpled to the ground and died.
From all points of the compass the arrows of flame rained
continuously and fiercely. "


This description so accurately depicts the use of a nuclear weapon, it's effects and the fallout. In fact, the scientist on the Manhatten project who described the first nuclear test used a verse from this same passage.

Another description of a weapon that echoes modern missle technology is again during the Mahabharata. Where, the evil Salva is flying in an invisible vimana around the skies attacking Krishna's army. Krishna then deploys a special fire-weapon that seeks sound and is able to down Salvas Vimana and kill him.

Aeuronautics

We have have flying vehicles described over and over again in ancient Indian literature. Now, for the first time, see an ancient Indian document of aeronautical science, the Vyanmaika Shastra(VS) that gives us technical and schematical information on propulsion, energy, weapons, flight tactics, pilots food and clothes and metallurgy. This is the the most groud-breaking document ever and has been studied by many scholars, engineers and scientists from Europe and India from the early 20th century and onwards. It is currently being studied on the highest level of the Indian government and scientifiic community, at the Aeronautical Development Agency(ADA) of the Indian Ministry of Defence. Indian scientists have been able to succesfully recreate the prescribed alloys according to the formulas in the VS.

You can read a very fascinating thesis written on the VS here: ebusiness.ada.gov.in...

Here is a primer demystisting the sankrit terms utilised in the VS to aid our understanding.Vymanika Shastra itself means 'treatise on aeronautics'. or "science of aeronautics"

The main sankrit terms

Adrishya: Invisibility
Antara: Difference
Bhaava: Being or becoming
Darpana: Mirror
Drishya: Vision
Jyotibhaava: Becoming glowing
Karan: Action/do
Kiran: Ray
Loha: Metal
Mani: Crystal
Naali: Channel
Paroksh: Contract
Roopa: Appearance
Roopaantra: Taking on a different appearance
Roopakarshana: Attracting an appearance
Sankorcha: Contract
Shakti: Power
Surya: Sun or of relating to sun
Vayu: Wind or air
Vimana: Flying craft or bird-like
Viroopa karana: To make Bad form or shape
Yantra: Machine/device

The flying vehicles, are called Vimanas, and used throughout vedic literature to denote flying vehicles of the gods and the ruling class.

They contain various yantras(machines/devices) with various functions in various parts of the vimanas. All of the major onboard yantras are comprised of darpanas(mirrors or lens), manis(crystals) and naalis(channels and outpius) The machines function on various sources of shakti(power)

The Darpana Yanatras(The mirror machines/devices)

There are 8 Darpana Yantras and belong to 4 types of function:

Television
optical stealth, holography and cloaking
Laser and directed energy weapons
Energy generation

The mirrors are used for light related functions to either deflect, reflect, redirect, attract or amplify light and energy beams. In the same way lasers, holograms and solar cells work.

The mirrors are manufactured through special chemical processes using highly optically sensitive organic and inorganic substances.

The 5 main Darpana Yantras are:

1) Vishwa kriyaa darpana:

This device is used to obtain high resoluton real-time imagery of all activites around the Vimana, while in flight, and projected onto some screen. These lens are placed in a special arrangement with crystals, special mirrors and through a combination of solar, electric and mercury power are projected through some mechanism.

2) Shaktyakarshana darpana:

This device is used as a protection to neutralize harmful radiation in certain atmospheric zones. It is made up of 6 crystals positioned in a special arrangement that attract the harmful radiation and then gradually covert it to heat before it dissipates into the atmosphere.

3) Vyroopya darpana:

This is tactical device used to project battle field holographic images to confuse the enemy or to change the appearance of the Vimanas with a special deflecting mirror.

4) Guha garbha darpana:

This is a weapon device and used to harness the energy from the sun, winds, and ether and to redirect it to incapaciate the enemy via a special redirecting mirror; essentially a directed energy weapon.

5) Rowdree Darpana:

This is also some kind of directed energy weapon device. It combined Rodwdree beams(?) with solar rays and produces a high heat intensity ray that can melt anything it is directed on.

The Shakitis(The power sources)

There are 7 sources of Shaktis:

TUNDILA - UDGAMA SHAKTI

PANJARA - PANJARA SHAKTI

AMSHUPA (SHAKTIPA) - SOLAR POWER ABSORPTION

APAKARSHAKA - ABSORPTION OF POWER FROM ALIEN VIMANAS

SAANDHAANIKA - GROUP OF 12 FORCES

DAARPANIKA - KUNTINEE SHAKTI

SHAKTI PRASAVIKA -MAIN MOTIVE POWER

The above terms are nebulous and do not shed much light on the types of propulsion these Vimanas used. However, it can be said, that it was unconventional. The predominant energy sources described are solar rays, crystals, electric power and ether winds. There is also a mention of a "solar glow" which could possibly mean nuclear fusion power.

Dr David Childress also suggests that a mercury propulsion system was used, where the latent power of mercury was used to generate the energy to propel the crafts.

The vimanas's aerodynamics as described in the shastra are similar to the aerodynamics of the common UFO. So some kind of electromagnetic field propulsion maybe at play. It should be noted that there were many types of Vimanas and they all used different forms of propulsion for different roles.

Aerodynamics:

Proceeding
Mounting
Circulating
Circuambulating
Receding
Motionless or hovering
Ascending
Descending
Speeding
Sideways motion
Anti-clockwise motion
miscellaneious motions
Shuddering

Other Yantras in the Vimana:

Guhagarbha Aadarsha Yantra:

This device is used to locate mines or hidden explosives through air-reconnaissance. Through a sequence of mirrors and image reflecters an image of the ground below is obtained, which is then processed through a special crystal Chumbakamani, and then electricity and light rays are passed through it and then directed on a downwards mirror, that scans the ground.

Tamogarbh Yantra:

This device is used to create some form of invisibility. The device works with revolving two faced mirrors collecting solar rays, activation of acid in the vessel on the opposite side, of mirrors, allowing solar ray to enter the crystal in an acid vessel. By turning a separate wheel in the west, darkness-intensifying mirror begin to function. By operation of a central wheel the rays attracted by the mirror will reach the crystal and envelop it. By operating the main wheel at high speed, darkness will envelop the entire vimana making it invisible.

Shabdhakarshaka yantra:

This device is used in listening to sound waves in a range of 27 miles. It works on some kind of rotary component sensitive to sound.

]Other technologies

BIO-ENGINEERING:

This is the most staggering find I have come upon. It appears that the ancient Indians also had the ability to clone humans(it's very ironic that contemporary India is taking the lead in stem-cell research) In the Mahabharata, the queen Ghandari, who had pregnancy problems and after 2 years bore a pinda(ball of flesh) which was then handed over to a sage. He divided this ball of flesh into 100 parts and treated them with a chemical process, then put each part into a sealed cooling container for 2 years, from which 100 male babies were created.

ENGINEERING

According to the Indian epics Mahabharata(10,000 - 3000 years ago) and Ramayana(1.2 million years ago) engineering was far more advanced than modern civilization. The Ramayana describes the construction of a bridge from India to Sri Lanka. While the Mahabharata describes the construction of an entire island city in record time and also described it sinking into the ocean after the death of Krishna. Both can be verified by modern archeology.

The fabled bridge that was constructed by an ape race on the orders of Lord Rama, in the Treta yuga, which according to Indian time or yuga cycles, happened 1.2 million years ago, was recently discovered by a NASA space satellite. It has been dated 1.2 million years, thus putting it in the time-frame of it's so-called construction. The bridge, called Adams bridge, a 30km long chain of shoals has been characterized to have a man-made structure. Here is a passage from the Srimad Bhagvatam detalling the construction of the bridge.

(Srimad-Bhagavatam First Canto, Chapter 3, text 24, 1972)
Here's the account from the "Ramayana" of Sage Valmiki:
"At Rama's command, those lions among the monkeys entered the mighty forest with alacrity in hundreds and thousands on every side and those leaders on the simian tribes, tearing up the rocks, which in size they resembled, and the trees also dragged them to the sea and they covered the ocean with Sala, Ashvararna, (list of tree names).Those foremost monkeys transported those trees, with or without roots, bearing them like so many standards of Indra (the king of heaven) and they heaped (list of tree names) here and there. With the aid of mechanical devices, those powerful colossi dug up stones as big as elephants and rocks, and the water suddenly spouted into the air only to fall instantly. Thereafter those monkeys churned up the sea by rushing into it on all sides pulling on the chains.
"That immense causeway constructed by Nala in the bosom of the sea was built by the arms of those monkeys of formidable exploits and it extended over a hundred leagues.
"Some brought trunks of trees and others set them up; it was by hundreds and thousands that those monkeys, like unto giants, made use of reeds, logs and blossoming trees to construct that bridge, rushing hither and thither with blocks of stone resembling mountains or the peaks of crags, which, flung into the sea, fell with a resounding crash.
"The first day those monkeys resembling elephants, or immense energy, full of high spirits and exceedingly merry, erected fourteen leagues of masonry. The second day, those highly active monkeys of formidable stature set up twenty leagues. Bestirring themselves, those giants threw twenty-one leagues of structure over the ocean on the third day and on the fourth, working feverishly, they built up twenty-two leagues in extent. The fifth day, those monkeys, industrious workers, reached to twenty-three leagues distance from the further shore.
"That fortunate and valiant son of Vishvakarma (architect of the demigods), leader of the monkeys, constructed a causeway worthy of his sire over the ocean and that bridge erected by Nala over the sea, the haunt of whales, dazzling in its perfection and splendor, was like the constellation of Svati in space.
"Then the gods, Gandharvas, Siddhas (living beings superior to humans) and supreme Rishis (great sages) assembled in the sky, eager to see that masterpiece, and the gods and Gandharvas gazed on that causeway, so difficult of construction, that was ten leagues in width and a hundred in length built by Nala.
"Those monkeys thereafter dived, swam and shouted at the sight of that unimaginable marvel that was almost inconceivable and caused one to tremble! And all beings beheld that causeway thrown over the ocean and by hundreds and thousands of kotis (millions), those monkeys, full of valor, having built that bridge over the immense repository of waters, reached the opposite shore.
"Vast, well-constructed, magnificent with its wonderful paved floor, solidly cemented, that great causeway like unto a line traced on the waves, resembled the parting of a woman's hair.


Here is the actual photograph from the NASA satellite:



The island city of Dwarika's construction is recorded in the Mahabharata - as is it's sinking into the sea. It was found only recently by pioneering team led by India's most reveered and respected archeologist Dr S.R. Rao and is heralded as the biggest archeological find after the discovery of Troy. It was a submerged and lost city on the west coast of India. Pottery found there has been carbon dated to more than 7000 years old. This proves the historicity of the Mahabharata.

Advanced Knowledge

In the Indian Puranas, thought to be more than 1200 years old. A speed of the sun is given based on the Rig Veda.

That speed is: 2,202 yojanas in half a nimesa.

These are given in ancient indian units. Here is a conversion:

A yojanas is 8000 Dhanus/bows and each bow is 6 feet

A nimesa is 16/73 of a second, as deduced from the following in the Purans:

15 nimesa = 1 Kastha
30 Kastha = 1 Kala
30 Kala = 1 Mahutra
30 Malhutra = 1 day and night

If we convert them to their equivalent modern units, where each yojanas is 9 miles and each nimesha is 16/73.3 seconds, substituting it into the speed of the sun by the Rig Veda gives the speed of the sun as 186,536 miles per second. The most accurate figure for the speed of light as of today is 186,282 miles per second.

This means the Rig Veda figure is 99% accurate to the modern figure. This kind of accuracy can only be achieved with laser technology and highly sophisticated measuring equipment. However, this just corroborates what we already know from the Vymanika Shastra, that they did indeed have laser technology.

In conclusion: Whom we think to be a tree-dwelling primitive man with an active imagination, has written about: engineering, genetic engineering, lasers, nuclear weapons, directed energy weapons, psychtronic weapons, television, holograms, cloaking, scanning, air force tactics, alloy fabrication, electricity, solar eletricity, inertia propulsion and calculated the speed of light. This was no tree-dwelling civilization. We are talking about a very sophisticated and advanced civilization that far surpasses our own.
It is harrowing to think that such an advanced society would just disappear. If they could disappear, then so could we. In light of this overwhelming proof, I think we need a huge overhaul of our current view of human history and it's origins. The implications are earth-shattering.

References:

www.atributetohinduism.com...
www.mic-d.com...
www.geocities.com...
www.hinduism.co.za...
www.geocities.com...
www.sacred-texts.com...
www.atributetohinduism.com...
www.crystalinks.com...
www.rootsweb.com...

[edit on 12-1-2005 by Indigo_Child]




posted on Jan, 12 2005 @ 05:20 PM
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Indian scientists have been able to succesfully recreate the prescribed alloys according to the formulas in the VS.

Any more info on that?

Its not much more proof for me (than what I already believe in regarding this, ie its quite stunning). And I have a real problem with descriptions of technology that include "mirror the sun into this set of magical crystals and make the aircraft fly" and the likes.



posted on Jan, 12 2005 @ 05:29 PM
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As a Hindu and a NRI, I accept your proof.

My only question or thought was that some of the most "dangerous" aastras and yantras were supposed to be kept secret and out of government hands. Do you know if this still applies? I was under the impression that there is info still out there even more valuable that what you outlined.



posted on Jan, 12 2005 @ 05:37 PM
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The alloys that have been created by the formulas prescribed in the VS are discussed in the thesis on ADA I posted above.

Further, it does not postulate that the mirrors and lens are used for propulsion. The actual propulsion it uses is a combination of solar, crystal, mercury, ether and harnessing 12 forces(?) and other unknown soures of power. The mirrors and lens are used in special yantras(machines) for the purposes of light-related functions, such as reflecting, deflecting, redirecting, absorbing and amplifying light and energy beams.

The practical applications are in optical invisibility, lasers, holograms and television, scanning and generation of power from solar rays. Now, that is definitely not magic, it is based on known scientific principles. Yes, it is stunning.

[edit on 12-1-2005 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Jan, 12 2005 @ 05:45 PM
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Indigo_Child may I ask what is your fascination with India regarding UFOs and ET's ?

[edit on 12-1-2005 by iksmodnad]



posted on Jan, 12 2005 @ 05:48 PM
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Indigo, I have missed your posts! I have been away for awhile....

Quote: All points of the compass were lost in darkness.
Fierce wind began to blow upward, showering dust and gravel.

Birds croaked madly... the very elements seemed disturbed.
The earth shook, scorched by the terrible violent heat of this
weapon.
Elephants burst into flame and ran to and fro in a frenzy...
over a vast area, other animals crumpled to the ground and died.
From all points of the compass the arrows of flame rained
continuously and fiercely. "


Question: What came after? Was this the destruction of that society?

Thoughts: From somewhere I can not recall, I have always known the word Shakti to mean power. I found that reference very interesting. It certainly falls in with my beliefs. I fear we are doomed to repeat a history that caused the destruction of another great civilization. Will man ever learn?



posted on Jan, 12 2005 @ 05:49 PM
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Originally posted by worldwatcher
As a Hindu and a NRI, I accept your proof.

My only question or thought was that some of the most "dangerous" aastras and yantras were supposed to be kept secret and out of government hands. Do you know if this still applies? I was under the impression that there is info still out there even more valuable that what you outlined.


The most dangerous aastra according to my research is the nuclear-weapon like Brahmaastra. I was looking for a source that detailed all of the aastras and their effects. Would you happen to know of them?

Yes, I am sure this is just a tip of an iceberg of the ancient Indian civilization. I am sure there is a lot more information that is not publically available.



posted on Jan, 12 2005 @ 06:01 PM
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Originally posted by iksmodnad
Indigo_Child may I ask what is your fascination with India regarding UFOs and ET's ?

[edit on 12-1-2005 by iksmodnad]


I have a fascination with all aspects of the UFO and ET phenomena. I also have a fascination with spirituality and ancient civilizations a lot of which is based in ancient India.

[edit on 12-1-2005 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Jan, 13 2005 @ 12:36 AM
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In the interest of Sanity, I am not quoting. This thread is a clone of an existing thread which at the moment is immediately beneath this one in the forum, titled "ancient nuclear war". I have answered almost everything in this post once and I will be much more brief this second time around.

1. Indigo refers to the Vaimanika Shastra and provides a link to a thesis on this book. This book was penned by Maharshi Bhradwaja in 1959 and translated to english by GR Josyer in 1979, with previously non-existant illustrations in the 1979 version. The original authorship by Bhradwaja is confirmed by the link Indigo provided, although it seems to credit this person as a timeless figure. If I understand correctly, the work claims to be "channelled".

2. Indigo provides quotes which claim to be from the Drona Parva of the Mahabharata. I ran key words from this through the google-powered search feature of www.sacred-texts.com. That server happes to host a page devoted to the ancient nuke theory, including the passage Indigo provided. Ironically, the google search feature proved that the passage does not actually exist within the Mahabharata. At best, the "passage" was a cut-and-paste amalgam of the most mystical imagery from throughout the book.
This passage included the word Gurkha. Gurkha warriors did no come into being until the 1500s when Rajputs from India invaded part of Nepal called Gorkha and adopted the region's name. They became famous mercinaries in the service of the British East India Company after their outstanding display in the Gurkha War of 1814-1816. The passage presented by Indigo is most likely a fraud, and a poor one at that.

3. Indigo has provided extensive examples of technology described in the modern work Vaimanika Shastra, with fewer references to the Vedas. Indigo does not give direct quotes, does not cite chapters, paragraphs, etc, and often fails to even draw parallels between the magical ancient weapons of this mythology and modern technology.
In short, this entire thread is a tempest in a teacup because Indigo read about flying chariots and magic arrows and took this literally.

4. Indigo has given religiously determined dates for the Vedic works of 3000-10000 years for the Mahabharata and over 1 million years for the Ramayana. According to Wikipedia, 50 generations pass between the stories of Ramayana and Mahabharata. The most liberal date given for the Mahabharata is 3100BC. 1400BC is more common. The story was not actually compiled in writing until later, and as such obviously evolved as an oral tradition for some time before coming to be the work we now know.

5. Important above all else, Indigo's idea of "evidence" is merely a book which if tortured enough can be equated to descriptions of modern devices. By this logic I can "prove" that Soddom and Gamorrah were nuked, that Hermes had an aircraft, and that Zeus had a directed energy weapons.


I'm starting to wonder if I really should have taken Indigo off of my ignore list.



posted on Jan, 13 2005 @ 02:34 AM
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Not passing judgement on anything. But the word "Gurkha" in that context does not refer to the Gorkha people. Gurkha in Sanskrit means cowherd. It was also a common name, and was often given to elephants, chariots, etc. in ancient times. (Like how people name their car or boat.)




posted on Jan, 13 2005 @ 02:59 AM
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Originally posted by rajkhalsa2004
Not passing judgement on anything. But the word "Gurkha" in that context does not refer to the Gorkha people. Gurkha in Sanskrit means cowherd. It was also a common name, and was often given to elephants, chariots, etc. in ancient times. (Like how people name their car or boat.)


I appreciate the input. It certainly doesn't unravel my arguement but it does allow me to present my arguement with fewer mistakes in the future.
Always learning.

EDIT: It bears repeating that none of the keywords I typed in brought up a passage relevant to the quote Indigo provided, not even the names of the races which were supposedly anhilated by the brahmastra.

[edit on 13-1-2005 by The Vagabond]



posted on Jan, 13 2005 @ 07:55 AM
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I have decided not to directly respond to Vagabonds spiteful post in the interest of maintaining healthy, informative and fruitful discussion. Someone has to take the role of an adult.

I do not profess to be a Sankrit Scholar, know little Sankrit myself(though more than the average person)and there are a limited amount of sources I have to refer to. This is a piece for discussion rather than a thesis of my own. It will most probably contain factual errors, and those errors will be amended as we discuss, research and learn.

All I am aiming to do is stimulate further discussion by providing the sum of evidence as proof which is greater than the parts. For example, while the Vyaamanika Shastra talks about laser technology. This is corroborated by the Purans that calculate a very accruate speed of light. Now, where there is smoke; there is fire.

I provide the references so that the reader, if interested, can follow it up with their own research. I have a provided a link to an excellent thesis written by an Indian docotorate on the VS, where he explains the origins, authorship and background on the VS. I highly recommend those interested to read it in their free time.

A summary of the actual facts:

A. The Vymanika Shastra(VS) is being studied on a very high level of government and science, by a range of scholars, scientists and engineers and has been studied on and off since the early 20th century.

B. The Author Maharishi Baradwaja was a famous a sage that lived in the Hindu Dvarpa and Treta Yuga. He is in the ansectory of Guru Dronacharya, who lived in the age of the Mahabharata. At least 3000 years ago. He penned the Yantra Sarwaswa(all about machines) which is a masterwork on science, of which the science of aeronautics or VS is a part. However, the Yantra Sarsawa has not been found. Baradwaja is also the common author of the Anshu Bodhini(an ancient cosmological work) and Srauta Shastra.

C.Bodhandana, a 10th century scholar wrote vriti or commentory on the VS. This suggests that at the very least the VS is 1000 years old.

In the late 19th century, a textural reference is made to the VS by Maharshi Dayananda saraswati, whom had given clarification on the direction of thrust of propulsive devices of Vimanas quoting Rig-Bhashya Bhumika. This was dated to be in 1875.

D. The VS materialised in manuscript form between 1908 to 1918 by mystic scholar Anekal Subbaraya Shastry. Anekal claimed to have recieved knowledge of the VS, among other things in a spiritual awakening . He first mentioned the VS to a scientist Dr. Talpade in India in the late 19th century.

E. Indian scientists, physicists chemists at various institutes and centres of technology have claimed to have succesfully have created the alloys and materials using the prescribed formulas in the VS, like Chumbakamani, Panchadhara-loha and Paragrandhika-drava.

Laboratory development of materials has gone through the following process.

· Understanding of poetic form of Sanskrit version.
· Convert to prose form, decode the terms wherever required and arrive at ingredients.
· Use modern equivalents / substitutes, wherever required.
· Determine proportions of mixing
· Use process details to obtain the materials.

In 1999 a scientific team, sponsored by Indian National Science Academy, INSA was commisioned to investigate the VS. The task force consisted of Dr. Dongre, P.G.College of Varanasi, Dr.P.Ramachandra Rao, Director of National Metallurgical Laboratory, Jamshedpur and others. . Their report relates to development of a novel spectrometer / monochromeater called ‘Dwanta Pramapaka Yantra’ and an Infra-Red transparent material (non-hygroscopic) called ‘Prakasha Stambhana bida’


2. The Mahabharata is an ancient sankrit epic. Like with any foreign language text, there exists several translations of it, and some translations are more subjective than others. The translation on Sacrd-Texts.com is a translation by Gangully in the late 19th century and it indeed has a period bias. Example, Gangully assumes the great destruction to be some kind of meteroite and fallout effects to be rats eating peoples hair and nails in the night. This is because Gangully has no reference to nuclear war.

Now, I myself have read this incident occuring in the Mahabharat in the past. I thought it was the Drona Parva, however last night I read the Drona Parva on sacred-texts and could not find this incident. I later found it on the Mausala Parva. I would have edited it into my original post, but I had exceeded my 2 hour edit _

Here are the relavant passages: www.sacred-texts.com...

"Endeavoured to be deceived by those wicked ones, those ascetics, with eyes red in wrath, looked at each other and uttered those words. Having said so they then proceeded to see Keshava. The slayer of Madhu, informed of what had taken place, summoned all the Vrishnis and told them of it. Possessed of great intelligence and fully acquainted with what the end of his race would be, he simply said that that which was destined would surely happen. Hrishikesa having said so, entered his mansion. The Lord of the universe did not wish to ordain otherwise. When the next day came, Samva actually brought forth an iron bolt through which all the individuals in the race of the Vrishnis and the Andhakas became consumed into ashes. Indeed, for the destruction of the Vrishnis and the Andhakas, Samva brought forth, through that curse, a fierce iron bolt that looked like a gigantic messenger of death. The fact was duly reported to the king. In great distress of mind, the king (Ugrasena) caused that iron bolt to be reduced into fine powder.
Vaishampayana said: "While the Vrishnis and the Andhakas were thus endeavouring (to avoid the impending calamity), the embodied form of Time (death) every day wandered about their houses. He looked like a man of terrible and fierce aspect. Of bald head, he was black and of tawny complexion. Sometimes be was seen by the Vrishnis as he peered into their houses. The mighty bowmen among the Vrishnis shot hundreds and thousands of shafts at him, but none of these succeeded in piercing him, for he was none else than the Destroyer of all creatures. Day by day strong winds blew, and many were the evil omens that arose, awful and foreboding the destruction of the Vrishnis and the Andhakas. The streets swarmed with rats and mice. Earthen pots showed cracks or broke from no apparent cause. At night, the rats and mice ate away the hair and nails of slumbering men. Sarikas chirped, sitting within the houses of the Vrishnis. The noise made by those birds ceased not for even a short while by day or by night. The Sarashas were heard to imitate the hooting of the owl, and goats imitated the cries, O Bharata, of jackals. Many birds appeared, impelled by Death, that were pale of complexion but that had legs red of hue.

I am not actually sure where the word "Gurkha" originated from in the context of the Mahabharata. It appears in a passage Dr Childress uses for his book. I will research furter on this.

It would be helpful if there were more translations of the Mahabharata readily available, so we can compare.

3. I thought it would not be necessary to quote exact passages, cite chapters from the Mahabharata. As I thought it was well known that the Mahabharata and Ramayans are teeming with references to vimanas, yantras, aastras and other technology. I mentioned a few as well.

Worldwatcher sumised it quite well "As a Hindu and an NRI I accept your proof"

You would have to be illterate not to know that. As for the Vedas not describing weapons and flying vehicles. The Vedas are spiritual scriptures, not scientific or historical documents. The Bhagvad Gita was supposedly revealed on the battlefield of the Mahabharata to Arjuna. Yet, nor does it, mention any weapons or technology, again, because it's a spiritual scripture.

4. No, actually the dates for the Mahabharata in the time frame of 3000-10,000 years are given in terms of archeological, historical and scientific studies into the Mahabharata. I produced evidence that Indian archeologists and scientists have discovered the lost city of Dwarika, where artifacts were dated with scientific techniques to be possibly 7000 to 10,000 years old.

As for the Ramayana. The Ramayana was considered by those who lived in the age of the Mahabharata - "eons ago". It occurred in the Treta and Dvarpa Yuga, which according to the Hindu Calender, was 1.2 million years ago. This is why it very interesting that a bridge has been found between India and Sri Lanka in that time-frame, because that is exactly when Rama ordered it's construction.

Further, as hard as this is to digist, according to Hindu history, people in the Dvarpa age could live to 100,000 years old and could only die if they willed it. This is why the sage Maharishi Bhadarwaja was able to live through two epochs. It is only in the Kaliyuga age, where human age is said to decrease to 120 years.

5. No my evidence is most certainly not just a book. As I said in my original post. What we call mythology, was called history by our ancestors. Unlike yourself, I am not adopting an intellectually arrogant and close-minded approach. I am actually testing the veracity of Indian mythology as history.

You mentioned Zeus and the bible describing technology. It is indeed very possible that they are describing advanced technology. However, it is open to interpretation and because the references are so vague, it sounds like magic. However, in the case of ancient Indian descriptions, the technologies are described in an empirical, practical and scientific manner. Not as supernatural

For instance all technology is described as a "yantra" or a machine that people use. Even the demi-gods use machines. So, this is not the case of some omnipotent beings that can cast down thunder through their eyes. Further, all the yantras, work on scientific principles. There is absolutely no doub that ancient India had a very advanced and sophisticated society. As early as 800BC, an Indian surgeon was performing cataract operations, plastic surgery, artificial limb augumentation, cesareans and even brain surgery.

I am not sure how you can claim I am forcing out meanings from text. What conclusion do you arrive at when you see fairly vivid and scientific descriptions, like the following:

A ball of flesh bore out of a womans wombs, divided into 100 parts, processed through chemicals, each part placed into a cooling container for 2 years, and then 100 babies are born from it.

[edit on 13-1-2005 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Jan, 13 2005 @ 08:11 AM
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A very intresting topic that i have read little about befor, good post indigo you went to alot of effort and eve though there are goign to be skceptics trying to shoot u down left right and centre, continue on the research you may find more evidence to back up your arguement.
Personaly i think there may have been a civilization that possesed technology to around our standards, yet if this civilization did exist i belive it was a global one. India probably just kept stories of the older humans, while they died off in ledgends in other cultures.



posted on Jan, 13 2005 @ 08:11 AM
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Originally posted by HarmoniusOne
Indigo, I have missed your posts! I have been away for awhile....

Quote: All points of the compass were lost in darkness.
Fierce wind began to blow upward, showering dust and gravel.

Birds croaked madly... the very elements seemed disturbed.
The earth shook, scorched by the terrible violent heat of this
weapon.
Elephants burst into flame and ran to and fro in a frenzy...
over a vast area, other animals crumpled to the ground and died.
From all points of the compass the arrows of flame rained
continuously and fiercely. "


Question: What came after? Was this the destruction of that society?

Thoughts: From somewhere I can not recall, I have always known the word Shakti to mean power. I found that reference very interesting. It certainly falls in with my beliefs. I fear we are doomed to repeat a history that caused the destruction of another great civilization. Will man ever learn?


I am not completely sure. It says this weapon destroyed two entire races, but I am not sure if it means actual cities, or on the battlefield. If I am not mistaken the city of Dwarika is submerged as soon as Krishna dies. So it was within the time-frame this weapon was supposedly used .



posted on Jan, 13 2005 @ 08:53 AM
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Originally posted by Indigo_Child

Originally posted by HarmoniusOne
Indigo, I have missed your posts! I have been away for awhile....

Quote: All points of the compass were lost in darkness.
Fierce wind began to blow upward, showering dust and gravel.

Birds croaked madly... the very elements seemed disturbed.
The earth shook, scorched by the terrible violent heat of this
weapon.
Elephants burst into flame and ran to and fro in a frenzy...
over a vast area, other animals crumpled to the ground and died.
From all points of the compass the arrows of flame rained
continuously and fiercely. "


Question: What came after? Was this the destruction of that society?

Thoughts: From somewhere I can not recall, I have always known the word Shakti to mean power. I found that reference very interesting. It certainly falls in with my beliefs. I fear we are doomed to repeat a history that caused the destruction of another great civilization. Will man ever learn?


I am not completely sure. It says this weapon destroyed two entire races, but I am not sure if it means actual cities, or on the battlefield. If I am not mistaken the city of Dwarika is submerged as soon as Krishna dies. So it was within the time-frame this weapon was supposedly used .

My swedish mythology book mentions 3 cities and 2 races...

Where your passage says
Gurkha, flying a swift and powerful vimana
hurled a single projectile charged with the power
of the Universe


Mine actually says
Gurkha, flying a swift and powerful vimana
hurled at the three cities of Vrishni and Andhaka a single projectile charged with the power of the Universe


No bloody clue where the writer got that from though. Could be completely wrong.

[edit on 13-1-2005 by merka]



posted on Jan, 13 2005 @ 10:30 AM
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Where your passage says
Gurkha, flying a swift and powerful vimana
hurled a single projectile charged with the power
of the Universe


Mine actually says
Gurkha, flying a swift and powerful vimana
hurled at the three cities of Vrishni and Andhaka a single projectile charged with the power of the Universe


No bloody clue where the writer got that from though. Could be completely wrong.


Yes, actually it has just occured to me. Yes, it was an attack on the cities and obviously so powerful that it caused them to sink. So two races and several cities were reduced to ashes. The actual Mahabharata war was over 36 years ago and was fought on a battlefield.



posted on Jan, 13 2005 @ 10:50 AM
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Originally posted by Indigo_Child
I have decided not to directly respond to Vagabonds spiteful post in the interest of maintaining healthy, informative and fruitful discussion. Someone has to take the role of an adult.


I have to say, I never saw the value of whatever "being an adult" is. I'll not digress into a personal attack, I'll simply say that spite for what seems clearly misguided does not seem like a horrible failing to me. It's not as if I danced in a circle chanting "there's no such thing, neener neener neener".



All I am aiming to do is stimulate further discussion by providing the sum of evidence as proof which is greater than the parts. For example, while the Vyaamanika Shastra talks about laser technology. This is corroborated by the Purans that calculate a very accruate speed of light.


I continue to be interested in seeing direct quotes with sources. My initial suspicion is that discussion of mirrors and lenses need not always relate to lasers. Would not the clever use of mirrors and magnifying devices be useful to the operator of a vimana (chariot) for having awareness of the battle around him?




A summary of the actual facts:
A. The Vymanika Shastra(VS) is being studied on a very high level of government and science, by a range of scholars, scientists and engineers and has been studied on and off since the early 20th century.


I can respect and acknowledge that, however one has to consider that it may not be knowledge contained in the writing itself but only insight or inspiration taken from that writing which has yielded results. Just for example, I bet if i studied Star Wars hard enough I could find inspiration for an invention in that movie. That doesn't mean Star Wars has any basis in real scientific knowledge available to George Lucas in the 1970s.



B. The Author Maharishi Baradwaja was a famous a sage that lived in the Hindu Dvarpa and Treta Yuga. He is in the ansectory of Guru Dronacharya, who lived in the age of the Mahabharata. At least 3000 years ago. He penned the Yantra Sarwaswa(all about machines) which is a masterwork on science, of which the science of aeronautics or VS is a part. However, the Yantra Sarsawa has not been found. Baradwaja is also the common author of the Anshu Bodhini(an ancient cosmological work) and Srauta Shastra.

I'll tread lightly on your religious beliefs. I'll just say that one who does not share those beliefs is going to be hard pressed to accept claims about an unseen book which is said to be written by a prominent figure in religious mythology. (forgive me if the term mythology offends you).

At the really concrete level, where is what we have. We have some evidence that there was a book called VS in ancient times. Then, starting in 1875 and evolving until 1923 we have a book bearing that same name which deals with matters that were beginning to be theorized on in that timeframe.
To a skeptic, it occurs that religious and scientific fringes sometimes borrow from eachother. Often they are caught red handed when the science is disproven. This was the case with H.P. Blavatsky's hijacking of the concept of Lemuria. In other cases where the scientific theories do pan out we can never know if the religious who attatched themselves to it were telling the truth or not.



D. The VS materialised in manuscript form between 1908 to 1918 by mystic scholar Anekal Subbaraya Shastry. Anekal claimed to have recieved knowledge of the VS, among other things in a spiritual awakening . He first mentioned the VS to a scientist Dr. Talpade in India in the late 19th century.

Try to picture this in a modern context and see if you don't understand my skepticism here. Suppose that here in 2005 I just happened to "uncover" an ancient text which dealt in vague terms with emerging sciences that we do not yet fully comphrehend and to top it all off I claimed that the information was revealed to me by God. I'd have to be extremly charismatic, to say the least, to sell such a story.



E. Indian scientists, physicists chemists at various institutes and centres of technology have claimed to have succesfully have created the alloys and materials using the prescribed formulas in the VS, like Chumbakamani, Panchadhara-loha and Paragrandhika-drava.

Laboratory development of materials has gone through the following process.

· Understanding of poetic form of Sanskrit version.
· Convert to prose form, decode the terms wherever required and arrive at ingredients.
· Use modern equivalents / substitutes, wherever required.
· Determine proportions of mixing
· Use process details to obtain the materials.

Again taking a look through a skeptic's glasses:
You take a group of people who are familiar with the relevant science. They make 3 successive translations- first the extremely difficult translation from poetic sanskrit, which is so difficult that ambiguities can arise between a nuclear blast and a plague of rats as we have noted above. Then the translation to prose. Then finally the translation of non-technical terms into modern technical terms, whereby "light of the sun" could become fire, plasma, fusion, or any number of things.
After these 3 translations by men who understand science there is a tremendous potential for them to have made independent inventions while trying to pound these round pegs into square holes. The true credit belongs not to the text but to the men who were able to abstractly create something new just because they were looking for it.



2. The Mahabharata is an ancient sankrit epic. Like with any foreign language text, there exists several translations of it, and some translations are more subjective than others. The translation on Sacrd-Texts.com is a translation by Gangully in the late 19th century and it indeed has a period bias. Example, Gangully assumes the great destruction to be some kind of meteroite and fallout effects to be rats eating peoples. This is because Gangully has no reference to nuclear war.

From a skeptics viewpoint the nuclear attack is almost certainly the effect of period bias, not the other way around. I would be happy to look at other pre-nuclear translations if you know where we can find them.



Now, I myself have read this incident occuring in the Mahabharat in the past. I thought it was the Drona Parva, however last night I read the Drona Parva on sacred-texts and could not find this incident. I later found it on the Mausala Parva. I would have edited it into my original post, but I had exceeded my 2 hour edit _


I can't blame you for that part. In the other thread I said that I thought it was in the Drona Parva. I'm just guessing that you read that and took my word for it when you started this thread.



Here are the relavant passages: www.sacred-texts.com...

"When the next day came, Samva actually brought forth an iron bolt through which all the individuals in the race of the Vrishnis and the Andhakas became consumed into ashes. Indeed, for the destruction of the Vrishnis and the Andhakas, Samva brought forth, through that curse, a fierce iron bolt that looked like a gigantic messenger of death. The fact was duly reported to the king. In great distress of mind, the king (Ugrasena) caused that iron bolt to be reduced into fine powder.
Vaishampayana said: "While the Vrishnis and the Andhakas were thus endeavouring (to avoid the impending calamity), the embodied form of Time (death) every day wandered about their houses. He looked like a man of terrible and fierce aspect. Of bald head, he was black and of tawny complexion. Sometimes be was seen by the Vrishnis as he peered into their houses. The mighty bowmen among the Vrishnis shot hundreds and thousands of shafts at him, but none of these succeeded in piercing him, for he was none else than the Destroyer of all creatures. Day by day strong winds blew, and many were the evil omens that arose, awful and foreboding the destruction of the Vrishnis and the Andhakas. The streets swarmed with rats and mice. Earthen pots showed cracks or broke from no apparent cause. At night, the rats and mice ate away the hair and nails of slumbering men. Sarikas chirped, sitting within the houses of the Vrishnis. The noise made by those birds ceased not for even a short while by day or by night. The Sarashas were heard to imitate the hooting of the owl, and goats imitated the cries, O Bharata, of jackals. Many birds appeared, impelled by Death, that were pale of complexion but that had legs red of hue.


I appreciate that you have found this passage. At face value it makes the nuclear war interpretation appear to be a modern bias. It would take a lot of talking to convince me that a nuclear attack was derived from this description except through the powerful influence of period bias.



I am not actually sure where the word "Gurkha" originated from in the context of the Mahabharata. It appears in a passage Dr Childress uses for his book. I will research furter on this.

I would guess that there are people out there who would further mystify this passage just for fun, and in so doing would add things that don't make any sense.



It would be helpful if there were more translations of the Mahabharata readily available, so we can compare.

Indeed. I'll google for more later, but I'm not expecting a stunning degree of success. Maybe I can get my hands on a copy of the critical edition at the library.



3. I thought it would not be necessary to quote exact passages, cite chapters from the Mahabharata. As I thought it was well known that the Mahabharata and Ramayans are teeming with references to vimanas, yantras, aastras and other technology. I mentioned a few as well.


I guess I'm out of my rights to "hold you to the fire" on it, but it's exceedingly difficult to offer an intelligent response when the precise subject matter is not available for review. I have spent several hours on this exchange trying to nail down sources.



Worldwatcher sumised it quite well "As a Hindu and an NRI I accept your proof"

You would have to be illterate not to know that. As for the Vedas not describing weapons and flying vehicles. The Vedas are spiritual scriptures, not scientific or historical documents. The Bhagvad Gita was supposedly revealed on the battlefield of the Mahabharata to Arjuna. Yet, nor does it, mention any weapons or technology, again, because it's a spiritual scripture.


These are statements with which I can have no quarrel. Religious beliefs fall under far different standards than historical knowledge. The claim that these religious teachings offered absolute proof of historical levels of technological advancement was the problem. Where religion and history mingle there will always be fierce debate. Unfortunately they will inevitably mingle, often resulting in questions which can not be answered.



4. No, actually the dates for the Mahabharata in the time frame of 3000-10,000 years are given in terms of archeological, historical and scientific studies into the Mahabharata. I produced evidence that Indian archeologists and scientists have discovered the lost city of Dwarika, where artifacts were dated with scientific techniques to be possibly 7000 to 10,000 years old.

Carbon dating can be heavily confused if the object is submerged. Also the fact that an area above water was somehow caused to be submerged points to atmospheric/oceanic changes which would have created a plateau of uncertainty in carbon dates, not unlike that surrounding the Younger Dryas. en.wikipedia.org...

I would also like to make it clear that I didn't pluck my date out of the clear blue sky. According to wikipedia, astronomical events described in the Mahabharata would support a dating of 3100BC.



As for the Ramayana. The Ramayana was considered by those who lived in the age of the Mahabharata - "eons ago". It occurred in the Treta and Dvarpa Yuga, which according to the Hindu Calender, was 1.2 million years ago. This is why it very interesting that a bridge has been found between India and Sri Lanka in that time-frame, because that is exactly when Rama ordered it's construction.

Further, as hard as this is to digist, according to Hindu history, people in the Dvarpa age could live to 100,000 years old and could only die if they willed it. This is why the sage Maharishi Bhadarwaja was able to live through two epochs. It is only in the Kaliyuga age, where human age is said to decrease to 120 years.


Well, this is where religious and historical discussion really have a hard time being reconciled. I am interested in your statement that hinduism believes in the limit to 120 years. This is the same number given by the bible is it not?



5. No my evidence is most certainly not just a book. As I said in my original post. What we call mythology, was called history by our ancestors. Unlike yourself, I am not adopting an intellectually arrogant and close-minded approach. I am actually testing the veracity of Indian mythology as history.


Like I've said, this conversation really can't go anywhere. How in Billy Conn's name can you hope to reconcile eons old humanity that never died with historical truth? I'm not here to attack your religious beliefs, but I'm not going to take them for granted as historical just because thats what you have faith in. I do appreciate that you accidentally let the word "intellectual" slip out while describing me
. Flattery really isn't necessary.



You mentioned Zeus and the bible describing technology. It is indeed very possible that they are describing advanced technology. However, it is open to interpretation and because the references are so vague, it sounds like magic. However, in the case of ancient Indian descriptions, the technologies are described in an empirical, practical and scientific manner. Not as supernatural

This is much easier for a believer to say. Looking at the above discussion of the "nuclear war" passage it seems plain to the eyes of a skeptic that the vedas are equally magical in nature. Empirical means measurable. The Vedic descriptions are soft and require interpretation by someone having knowledge apart from them. If they contained Empirical descriptions we could have followed the plans and built aircraft centuries ago.



For instance all technology is described as a "yantra" or a machine that people use. Even the demi-gods use machines. So, this is not the case of some omnipotent beings that can cast down thunder through their eyes.

Same in Greek mythology. Zues' bolts were made by Haephestus (spelling?) if I remember correctly.



Further, all the yantras, work on scientific principles. There is absolutely no doub that ancient India had a very advanced and sophisticated society. As early as 800BC, an Indian surgeon was performing cataract operations, plastic surgery, artificial limb augumentation, cesareans and even brain surgery.

Feel free to provide sources. I have expected you to claim that they were using X-ray machines. You do realize that these operations were being performed with crude tools that probably hurt as many people as they helped, right? Or did they use lasik for cataract ops?



I am not sure how you can claim I am forcing out meanings from text. What conclusion do you arrive at when you see fairly vivid and scientific descriptions, like the following:
A ball of flesh bore out of a womans wombs, divided into 100 parts, processed through chemicals, each part placed into a cooling container for 2 years, and then 100 babies are born from it.
[edit on 13-1-2005 by Indigo_Child]


You are aware that does not relate to any modern technique, right? You take an invalid, cut it into 100 pieces, and each piece grows a new whole? Only with starfish. It's just an old mystical story about something that couldn't and still can't be done.



posted on Jan, 13 2005 @ 02:25 PM
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Vagabond,

Continuing from the other discussion at ancient nuclear war, i would like to tell u that i am extremely disgraced by such statment of urs:


I can understand why people would want to maintain the mystery behind an object which is all that remains of an ancient temple, especially when a temple destroyed by foreigners when the mysterious object serves to glorify the history of your people.

Although I understand the rules and regulations of this forum, and also realise that not all americans are like you, i wouldn't speak my true mind.

But as a counter statement i could say "I understand why people like you tend to disbelieve and discredit posts and discussion of ancient civilisations... Thats becuase un fortunately you havent had any of your own! You books start from somewhere when NA was under Britain and end at gulf war(as you said). You people have trouble putting in history in books, whereas our scholars have trouble reducing it (considering only the official and proven history). I wont be surprised when ur history books will be speaking of clinton and lewinsky."
hmm Glory... Glory of Indians u talking about Mr Vagabond? Aparently the language I and you are speaking in is a rotten derivative of Sanskrit. We still have Sanskrit as a part of the regular course.
As for our glory, we Indians, well I dont want to convert this post into a flame post, but see Indian-borns have already made into the american government. Day by day americans loose their jobs to off shoring in India (India being an IT Superpower now). Microsoft gets its hardest to resolve bugs done by hired indian programmers. Britishers are already screaming Indians go home... just like we used to scream at them to leave our country.
British IT workers want Indians to go Home
IAF beat USAF in 90% of air combat missions in Cope India. I will pass u the link as soon as i find it, incase u havent already read on CNN.com

And dear Vagabond, I promise you that after graduating I will come down to ur country and earn maybe 5 times of what u earn currently... then come back to my country and invest it the way I feel.

Unfortunately I dun find time from my studies to perform a research on almost every thing that comes my way, but I can reply to some of ur statements.
I remember talking about the Pyramid stuff. The initial point was where is the infra structure needed to build such weapons and equipments.

You tell me that that guy, whatever his name is, can build a pyramid with basic physics in somewhat his life time. This person took a top down approach. I mean having known all the technology in current world, he proved that pyramids could be built with basic levers fulcrums and ramps.

That was exactly what I wanted to tell u. Considering making a pyramid in todays world with that guys theory would be absolute foolishness. And exactly in the same way construction of nuclear weapons in that time without a today like infrastructure doesnt seem possible, but was possible at that time, just like the pyramids.
And anyway you wouldn't need roads when u had anti-gravity based aircraft


Anyway, well after so much of discussion on this stuff I do agree that we dont have concrete proof of this fact that there did exist an advanced civilization (the only proof being the documentation). But just think of it, suppose the whole world was about to suddenly end today. What would u save for the next generation to survive and learn about their ancestors? Basically u could save nothing except urself. All that u cud do was vocally pass the info to next gen, who could then document it in their own language... and later call it sorcery and absurd science and low grade theories (like u said) and push the books in dustbins.

Anyway useless discussion... I think all those who believe in the ancient civilization must rather try to convert the descriptions in the books to working models in todays world... like the indian scientist who made the radar absorbing glass material. Atleast me, I will definitly try pursuing this as a hobby career.



posted on Jan, 13 2005 @ 04:47 PM
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I continue to be interested in seeing direct quotes with sources. My initial suspicion is that discussion of mirrors and lenses need not always relate to lasers. Would not the clever use of mirrors and magnifying devices be useful to the operator of a vimana (chariot) for having awareness of the battle around him?


Your suspicison is based on a prejudice that modern technology could not have existed in ancient times as it does not fit your model of history. So, essentially you are trying to cut off the wings. If we are going to honestly discuss this, then you will have to adopt an open-minded approach and be ready to test the veracity of the Mahabharata as history.

It's already known that Mahabharat does indeed have some basis in history.


I can respect and acknowledge that, however one has to consider that it may not be knowledge contained in the writing itself but only insight or inspiration taken from that writing which has yielded results. Just for example, I bet if i studied Star Wars hard enough I could find inspiration for an invention in that movie. That doesn't mean Star Wars has any basis in real scientific knowledge available to George Lucas in the 1970s.


I almost fell into splits of laughter there! No, usually in the real world, teams of scientists do not analyse movies for inspirations. Actually, it's the other way round, the science fiction writers analyse science and then apply, with artistic liscence of course.

The various scholars, scientists and engineers that are studying the Vymanika Shastra, are studying it, because it contains very detailed descriptions of technology that can benefit them. So far it has benefited them all, possibly even the Nazis.


At the really concrete level, where is what we have. We have some evidence that there was a book called VS in ancient times. Then, starting in 1875 and evolving until 1923 we have a book bearing that same name which deals with matters that were beginning to be theorized on in that timeframe.
To a skeptic, it occurs that religious and scientific fringes sometimes borrow from eachother. Often they are caught red handed when the science is disproven. This was the case with H.P. Blavatsky's hijacking of the concept of Lemuria. In other cases where the scientific theories do pan out we can never know if the religious who attatched themselves to it were telling the truth or not.


I do not have any religious beliefs in Hinduism. I am only educating you on who the author is, as you claimed the author Maharishi Bhadarwaja penned the VS in 1950's and I am simply letting you know he did not exist then. As you righlyfuly conceded, there is evidence for VS existing in ancient times, and it a part of Maharishi Bhadarwaja's masterwork Yantra Saraswana.

The manuscripts penned down by Anekal Subbarya Shastry, not only bears the same name(science of aeronautics), but also the same author and the same subject. This is corroborated by Bodhandana, a 10th century scholar wrote vriti or commentory on the VS.

British India and it was hardly was the hub of European and American science. So the cutting edge of science in America and Europe, would not have been the cutting edge of science in India. Nor was Shastry a scientist. In fact he was poor and illiterate at one point. Further, the knowledge in the VS is more advanced relative to the late 19th century science. Even late 19th century science ficion was off.


Try to picture this in a modern context and see if you don't understand my skepticism here. Suppose that here in 2005 I just happened to "uncover" an ancient text which dealt in vague terms with emerging sciences that we do not yet fully comphrehend and to top it all off I claimed that the information was revealed to me by God. I'd have to be extremly charismatic, to say the least, to sell such a story.


Your anaology is flawed, for the following reasons:

1. Anekal Subbaraya Shastry did not claim ownership of the VS. He ascribed it to Maharishi Bhadarwaja. Anekal himself was illiterate and poor, before his spiritual awakening that is.
2. The VS has been corroborated by ancient scholars.
3. The knowledge is far more advanced than the knowledge at the time. It's even more advanced than our time.


Again taking a look through a skeptic's glasses:
You take a group of people who are familiar with the relevant science. They make 3 successive translations- first the extremely difficult translation from poetic sanskrit, which is so difficult that ambiguities can arise between a nuclear blast and a plague of rats as we have noted above. Then the translation to prose. Then finally the translation of non-technical terms into modern technical terms, whereby "light of the sun" could become fire, plasma, fusion, or any number of things.
After these 3 translations by men who understand science there is a tremendous potential for them to have made independent inventions while trying to pound these round pegs into square holes. The true credit belongs not to the text but to the men who were able to abstractly create something new just because they were looking for it.


Absurd. What is the purpose of looking through glasses if they obscure your vision? We have an entire team of expert Sankrit scholars working on translating and decoding these documents. So, it is a peer reviewed process. Further, this is not alien heiroglyphics. Sankrit is not an unknown language and there exists several references to cross-reference and compare. If you translate something there is only so far you can stretch it.

Your proposition that a whole team of scientists would translate the text in such a manner that it fits known metallurgical processes without being aware of it, is in one word, silly. If I say to you "je voudrais tarte aux pommes" how does an english translator turn that into "I would like steak and kindey pie" Your logic here is cartoony. In reminds me of the Simpsons episode where the crazy scootish caretaker attacks a dog that barks at him, because he thought it said something about his mother.

Further, it is not actually the scientists that translate the texts. They are translated by sankrit scholars, and then the scientists uses the prescribed formula, and they end up with the alloys that were described. That would only be possible if the VS was real. So it is.


From a skeptics viewpoint the nuclear attack is almost certainly the effect of period bias, not the other way around. I would be happy to look at other pre-nuclear translations if you know where we can find them.


Yes, if the text actually said "Gurkha, in his figher jet fired a nuclear weapon at the city of the Vrishnis and reduced it to ashes" that would most definitely be a period bias.


I can't blame you for that part. In the other thread I said that I thought it was in the Drona Parva. I'm just guessing that you read that and took my word for it when you started this thread.


Actually, on several web sites it said Drona Parva. However, it was the same article on several web sites. So that is where that confusion originated.


I appreciate that you have found this passage. At face value it makes the nuclear war interpretation appear to be a modern bias. It would take a lot of talking to convince me that a nuclear attack was derived from this description except through the powerful influence of period bias.


No, from this translation a nuclear weapon would be wishful thinking. However, from a historical perspective, it does suggest a weapon of mass destruction. How else do you reduce an entire city into ashes with an arrow? Further, it does actually mention earthen pots cracked without no apparant cause. Iron bolt. Again, we really need more Mahabharata translations to compare.


Carbon dating can be heavily confused if the object is submerged. Also the fact that an area above water was somehow caused to be submerged points to atmospheric/oceanic changes which would have created a plateau of uncertainty in carbon dates, not unlike that surrounding the Younger Dryas.

I would also like to make it clear that I didn't pluck my date out of the clear blue sky. According to wikipedia, astronomical events described in the Mahabharata would support a dating of 3100BC.


Nor, did I. That is why I mentioned 3000-10,000 years. It based on astronomical, historical and archeological evidence available.


Well, this is where religious and historical discussion really have a hard time being reconciled. I am interested in your statement that hinduism believes in the limit to 120 years. This is the same number given by the bible is it not?


Not if we consider that we are discussing an advanced technological civilization. If the technology was advanced enough, life enhancement would become possible. I think there is already some scientific studies going on in life enhancement. So it need not be religious.

As for human age, it as as follows according to the Hinduism:

Sata yuga: 100,00 years
Dvarpa yuga: 10,000 years
Treta Tuga: 1000 years
Kali Tuga: 100 or 120 years

I am not surprised that the bible mentions 120 years. Human life span is not exactly a secret.


This is much easier for a believer to say. Looking at the above discussion of the "nuclear war" passage it seems plain to the eyes of a skeptic that the vedas are equally magical in nature. Empirical means measurable. The Vedic descriptions are soft and require interpretation by someone having knowledge apart from them. If they contained Empirical descriptions we could have followed the plans and built aircraft centuries ago.


Well, as I said all of technology is described as machines. However, I can understand how that by itself would not convince someone they are based on scientific principles. It could also be a machine that converts thought into reality and then it would go into the realms of the supernatural and becoming unverifiable. This is why the Vyamanika Shastra is crucial to this argument, because it is the only sanskrit scripture that exists that details the mechanisms behind the machine. It also ties a lot of loose ends in the Sanskrit documents.


Same in Greek mythology. Zues' bolts were made by Haephestus (spelling?) if I remember correctly.


Did Zeus fly around in flying machines? What's a "Haerphestus" btw?


Feel free to provide sources. I have expected you to claim that they were using X-ray machines. You do realize that these operations were being performed with crude tools that probably hurt as many people as they helped, right? Or did they use lasik for cataract ops?


Actually, it was a sophisticated and painless procedure. It used anesthetics and 125 surgical instrument by a team of surgeon and physicians.

While Lord Atreya is recognized for his contribution to medicine, sage Sushrut is known as the "Father of surgery". Even modern science recognizes India as the first country to develop and use rhinoplasty (developed by Sushrut). He also practiced amputation, caesarean and cranial surgeries, and developed 125 surgical instruments including scalpels, lancets, and needles.

Lord Atreya - author of Charak Samhita. Circa 8th - 6th century
BCE. Perhaps the most referred to Rishi/physician today The Charak Samhita was the first compilation of all aspects of ayurvedic medicine including diagnoses, cures, anatomy, embryology, pharmacology, and blood circulation (excluding surgery). He wrote about causes and cures for diabetes, TB, and heart diseases. At that time, European medicine had no idea of these ideas. In fact, even today many of these disease causes and
cures are still unknown to modern allopathic medicine.

Other unique quality of Ayurveda is that it uncovers and cures
the root cause of illness, it is safe, gentle and inexpensive, it
sees 6 stages of disease development (where modern medicine only sees the last two stages), it treats people in a personalized manner according to their dosha or constitution and not in any generic manner.
Further, Ayurveda being the science of 'life', Atrea was quick to emphasize, proper nutrition according to dosha, and perhaps above all else, that there was a mind/body/soul relationship and that the root cause of all diseases and the best medicine for all conditions is spiritual and ethical life.
Rishi Sushrut is known as the father of surgery & author of Sushrut Samhita. Circa 5 - 4th century BCE. He is credited with performing the world's first rhinoplasty, using anesthesia and plastic surgery. He used surgical instruments - many of them look similar to instruments used today; and discussed more than 300 types of surgical operations. One of the Ayurvedic surgical practices being used today in India involves dipping sutures into antibiotic herbs so when sewed into the person, the scar heals quicker and prevent infection. The modern surgical world owes a great debt to this great surgical sage
.
Source: www.hinduism.org.za...


You are aware that does not relate to any modern technique, right? You take an invalid, cut it into 100 pieces, and each piece grows a new whole? Only with starfish. It's just an old mystical story about something that couldn't and still can't be done.


Well, first I would like to have you note my point of how the technology described is in a practical and empirical manner. There is nothing supernatural here. There is no god granting 100 babies or some sage who casts a spell. A sample of DNA of the pregnant queen is taken, it is divided into 100 parts, each part is then treated chemically with nutrients of some kind and then incubated for 2 years in some kind of containers/chambers.
And that DOES relate to a modern science. It is called human cloning. And the principles are indeed very scientific, because each cell contains the same DNA code and if you divide the cells, each cell will be a copy. It is theoretically possible to grow the whole from a single cell. It's just far more advanced than what we are capable of today. It's done asexually and in the lab. However, the principle is the same as modern cloning of plants. The root cells are taken, then grown in a nutrient rich environment:

More recently, scientists have been able to clone plants by taking pieces of specialized roots, breaking them up into root cells and growing the root cells in a nutrient-rich culture. In culture, the specialized cells become unspecialized (dedifferentiated) into calluses. The calluses can then be stimulated with the appropriate plant hormones to grow into new plants that are identical to the original plant from which the root pieces were taken.

Source: science.howstuffworks.com...

[edit on 13-1-2005 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Jan, 13 2005 @ 05:01 PM
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I absolutely believe in the ancient hi-tech civilizations. But its our greatest misfortune that we dont have enough documentation left to reveal the truth. I had read in some literature where it said that the Rishis in the gurukools never used to belive in documenting and propaganding. They transferred their knowledge to their "qualified" deciples verbally only. (I think this is still prevelant with most of the guru's and rishis who believe in transferring their knowledge in quality than quantity) Has anybody heard of 45 Agam literatures of Jainism ? They are believed to be written in Prakrut, Ardha Magadhi, Magadhi and Sanskrit. These books have 45 volumes , each describing vividly about science of Chikitsa( medicine), predictions, astronomy, technology, Atma's energy , Mathematics....... These Agams are beleived precisely describe the time older than Mahabharat and Ramayan and were transferred from guru to shishya verbally since ages.But they were documented for the first time around 2500 years before (during the time of the 24th Tirthankar Lord Mahavir).
I dont know much about it but i know for sure that these Agams are still in the intact condition and can be found with the Jain Munis (gurus), some/most of them can even interprete the same. Is any one back in India know anything abt it??
I think the quote " Being a Hindu and a NRI, i believe in the ancient science" from Worldwatcher is perfect, as we have sometimes experieced it ....sometimes as Aryuvedas or sometimes as science of Predictions....

Wish there is more secret research done on this subject so that the critics or "intellectually arrogant" people can realize the glory of our ancestors.

Has anyone read the thread on the "Computers and CD-rom in Bible" I havent read any thread more hillarious than this !! check it out !



[edit on 13-1-2005 by sowhat]





 
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