Proof: Advanced Ancient Indian Civilization existed

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posted on Jan, 13 2005 @ 05:11 PM
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"PROOF" appears to be entirely subjective, and longwinded! Its all a matter of "wanting to beleive" anything. Under such mindset skepticism, or any questioning of said "proof" is unacceptable it seems.


[edit on 053131p://13015 by instar]




posted on Jan, 13 2005 @ 05:46 PM
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Proof is always subjective, because the truth is subjective. Even in science, something is not considered proof, till peers agree with it.

However, I absolutely see this as proof of the existence of an advanced civilization: Summarize:

1. Advanced surgical procedures.
2. A document on the science of aeronautics, that gives detailed technical information and physical information on how to fabricate the alloys. And they have been fabricated.
3. A million year old bridge connecting India and Sri Lanka in the same time it was said to be constructed.
4. Hundreds upon hundreds of references of flying vehicles, advanced technology, including human cloning.
5. A very accurate figure for speed of light
6. The discovery of Krishna's lost city

I think this list will grow as I continue to research.

There is such overwhelming evidence. Why is it that we think in 4.5 billion years on Earth. We are the only intelligent civilization here? Is this the same arrogance that makes us think we are the only intelligent life in the universe?

[edit on 13-1-2005 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Jan, 13 2005 @ 06:52 PM
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I only have a few problems with this idea, otherwise I find it extremely convincing and believe there was an advanced atlantean and indian civilization before ours that was just as if not more advanced than ours.

There is no physical evidence of the technology beyond the written word, and the apparent find of an ancient city with the signature of a nuclear blast. I think that if our civilization were to end with a dramatic war or for other reasons tomorrow, then 10,000 years from now you could still find a tank buried in rubble or find evidence of plumbing networks. The nuclear weapons suggested would need safe storage. I think that 10,000 years from now you would be able to find a nuclear waste containment facility in a mountain in good enough shape to realize that it was indeed a facility of sorts.

Excelent topic by the way.



posted on Jan, 13 2005 @ 07:19 PM
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Originally posted by Indigo_Child

I continue to be interested in seeing direct quotes with sources. My initial suspicion is that discussion of mirrors and lenses need not always relate to lasers. Would not the clever use of mirrors and magnifying devices be useful to the operator of a vimana (chariot) for having awareness of the battle around him?


Your suspicison is based on a prejudice that modern technology could not have existed in ancient times as it does not fit your model of history. So, essentially you are trying to cut off the wings. If we are going to honestly discuss this, then you will have to adopt an open-minded approach and be ready to test the veracity of the Mahabharata as history.


...And Achilles was invincible but for his heel. Was he a cyborg who had a hydrolic line hit in battle? You need to try some of this open-mindedness which you have been suggesting to everyone else; just entertain for a moment the possibility that linguistic ambiguities and regional prejudices in India are fueling this belief more than absolute facts are.



It's already known that Mahabharat does indeed have some basis in history.

Ok, can I play too? It's already known that the bible has some basis in history, therefore I choose to place absolute faith in the story that Elijah killed several hundred men all by himself after calling down plagues of God on them, and then he was beamed up into the sky. Obviously if it were not for prejudices held by translators we would have to conclude that Elijah had a UFO, a gun, and HAARP.
Or maybe that particular element of the bible was a religious story and an exageration- not a historical account.


I almost fell into splits of laughter there! No, usually in the real world, teams of scientists do not analyse movies for inspirations.

Do you know why? Because they aren't blinded by religious faith regarding movies. What I'm saying is that -if the did- Science fiction could inspire them in all of the ways that the Mahabharata has done for these scientists you repeatedly refer to with almost no proof.

And here's the really obvious question: If Indian scientists are reproducing all of this awesome technology you speak of, why is it that they're looking at buying yet another generation of aircraft from the Russians pretty soon?
I won't even go into the question of why China still controls territory claimed by India.



So far it has benefited them all, possibly even the Nazis.


I'm not sure how to break this to you exactly, but everything the Nazis flew ran on plain old combustible fuel. Most of it had wings and tailfins like every plane since the Wright Brothers.




I do not have any religious beliefs in Hinduism. I am only educating you on who the author is, as you claimed the author Maharishi Bhadarwaja penned the VS in 1950's and I am simply letting you know he did not exist then. As you righlyfuly conceded, there is evidence for VS existing in ancient times, and it a part of Maharishi Bhadarwaja's masterwork Yantra Saraswana.


WOAH! Be very careful with what you claim I have conceded. A completely unknown work which can not be shown to have any relation to the modern VS existed. That's all we know about its historicity.
If I write "the book of the dead" today, would it be ancient egyptian? If I write "the missing chapters of the dialogue of critias" is it greek?

The work -was- penned in 1959, granted that earlier "rough" versions were in the process of being formed starting in 1875. Those facts were presented in the same thesis that fallaciously attributed the work to Bhadarwaja. This contradiction causes justifiable confusion.



The manuscripts penned down by Anekal Subbarya Shastry, not only bears the same name(science of aeronautics), but also the same author and the same subject. This is corroborated by Bodhandana, a 10th century scholar wrote vriti or commentory on the VS.


That's fine and dandy but we have no idea as to the specific content. For all we know that was a book about kites, gliders, hotair, and manually operated wings.




Try to picture this in a modern context and see if you don't understand my skepticism here. Suppose that here in 2005 I just happened to "uncover" an ancient text which dealt in vague terms with emerging sciences that we do not yet fully comphrehend and to top it all off I claimed that the information was revealed to me by God. I'd have to be extremly charismatic, to say the least, to sell such a story.


Your anaology is flawed, for the following reasons:

1. Anekal Subbaraya Shastry did not claim ownership of the VS. He ascribed it to Maharishi Bhadarwaja. Anekal himself was illiterate and poor, before his spiritual awakening that is.

In my analogy I do not take credit myself either. I claim that it was revealed by God.



2. The VS has been corroborated by ancient scholars.

But the content as presented in the modern version is not. So if in my analogy I borrowed the name of a lost text, would you be my sucker? Probably.



3. The knowledge is far more advanced than the knowledge at the time. It's even more advanced than our time.

More precisely, the work is so vague and open to translation that we can not possibly know if it has any scientific basis. So far, the descriptions do not mesh with our understanding of science which opens the possibility that it is mystical in nature- a series of "magic" feats which never were and never could be performed.




Again taking a look through a skeptic's glasses:
You take a group of people who are familiar with the relevant science. They make 3 successive translations- first the extremely difficult translation from poetic sanskrit, which is so difficult that ambiguities can arise between a nuclear blast and a plague of rats as we have noted above. Then the translation to prose. Then finally the translation of non-technical terms into modern technical terms, whereby "light of the sun" could become fire, plasma, fusion, or any number of things.
After these 3 translations by men who understand science there is a tremendous potential for them to have made independent inventions while trying to pound these round pegs into square holes. The true credit belongs not to the text but to the men who were able to abstractly create something new just because they were looking for it.


Absurd. What is the purpose of looking through glasses if they obscure your vision?


Ignorant. What is the pupose of continuing a debate with someone who has resolved to accept this drivel on blind faith?

People have seen what passes for "absolute proof" with you. The only affirmation you have recieved is from those with religious faith in the assumptions you have made. Talk about ignorance embraced.
Welcome back to the ignore list Indigo. See you next year.



posted on Jan, 13 2005 @ 09:02 PM
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Originally posted by Indigo_Child
I present the following as absolute proof that a more advanced Indian technological society existed thousands of years ago. I consider the sum of the evidence as incontrovertible.

Ancient Indian literature is teeming with references to flying vehicles,

Flying stuff


weapons of mass destruction

Big blowing up stuff


and advanced technology.

Complicated stuff


Now, modern man has called this mythology.

Stories from a corpus of texts that are largely untranslateand unreadible outside of sanskrit cannot be used as proof of anything.


Now, if the technology described here is nothing but the imagination of a tree-dwelling primitive man, why does it work?

In the tv example, you have placed a modern understanding on whatever the text describes, and have not descirbed television in any workable way. All you have is a translation that you are saying talks about mirrors and 'electricity' and 'chemicals'. I would be surprised if the texts had an understanding of electricity or chemicals and the atomic elements.


The Narayanaastra was a thought-seeking weapon that would destroy anything that had a thought it was programmed to destroy. It is described being used in the Mahabharata war, as Krishna was familar with it, he asked his side to all cast down their weapons and surrender to the weapon, and it will not affect them.

What weapon is this supposed to be like? It vaguely sounds like smart weapons that seek out a pre-programmed target. Or is sounds like a magic weapon a god made to attack his enemies.


It could be likened to a modern-day nuclear weapon, in fact, it probably IS a nuclear weapon.

If nuclear weapons were being used there would probably (but not definitly, at least as far as I understand it) be evidence of that use, such as bizzare and unnatural ratios of radionuclides. or the slag left over from a city being bombed.

Gurkha, flying a swift and powerful vimana
hurled a single projectile charged with the power
of the Universe. An incandescent column of
smoke and flame, as bright as ten thousand suns, rose with
all its splendor.

What is the history of the translation of this text? Do all translations have this take on it, or just one?



It was an unknown weapon, an iron thunderbolt, a gigantic
messenger of death, which reduced to ashes the entire race
of the Vrishnis and the Andhakas.

An iron thunderbolt sent from the godsdoes not require a nuclear war in order to get into the myths of a people.

Hereis an intereting discussion about "vimanas"

on one of two possibilities on the source document
2. The contents were "channelled" or "psychically transmitted" to the
author from long dead rishis, sages, "scientists" or whatever. This
interpretation makes some sense because all throughout the text there are subsections (in each main section that is devoted to a single topic) in
each main section where it is said, "Maharishi so-and-so says:". Often
what these other people say are openenly admitted as contradictory in some (minor) details what a different sage has said on the topic
under discussion; else these other people just add additional information
appropriate to that section of the overall text. So the text clearly
reads as a wierd discussion among dead sages, rishis, scientists or
whatever all simultaneously contributing to the overall text.



on the drawings
the diagrams (produced much more recently I might add) of the three
types of Vimana are strange. One looks like it could fly at a fast rate
(it is saucer shaped). The others simply cannot -- one is a four-sided
pyramid with a crystal on top and propellers on all four sides. The
intended direction of flight is clearly such that the point of the pyramid
faces up (against the direction of gravity) and the base down.




We have have flying vehicles described over and over again in ancient Indian literature.

Lots of mythological/historical texts talk about flying things. This does not mean that there were advanced jets flitting about. Moreover, if you feel that the indian desciptions are valid, what about other descriptions from other cultures?


It was found only recently by pioneering team led by India's most reveered and respected archeologist Dr S.R. Rao

I am unfamiliar with this excavation, but from what I understand Rao is recognized as being an accomplished underwater archaeologist. What does that have to do with advanced technology tho? Did his researches confirm the method of destruction in the vedic text?


The most accurate figure for the speed of light as of today is 186,282 miles per second.

Why is it supposed to be talking about the speed of light? It says the speed of the sun, which doesn't even move, except in appearance to move across the sky?


This kind of accuracy can only be achieved with laser technology and highly sophisticated measuring equipment

Or apparently something like the statistics of numerology.


I honestly don't see how anyone can consider all of that irefutable proof of anything, unless one has very low values of proof. All that has been done is to find some interesting descriptions that could very well be ancient man's way of thinking of advanced technology. But that is certainly not the only explanation for the flying stuff and big fires and weird apparatii in the descriptions above. Also, if that is the explanation one looks for, then it brings up the problem of having this text corrupted throughout by people who didn't understand what they were talking about, and yet is also supposed to be reliable enough to recreate these things. And then of course there is the problem of this stuff not actually being re-created. When india built its nukes, it didn't build these super-nukes. It built regular old nukes. Its airforce isn't made up of supersonice chakra powered composite technology vimanas, but regular old jets. I understand that you are saying the knowledge was lost, but they forget how to make, say, guns, but not the speed of light in a vaccuum? And then do nothing with it?


The major problem of course is that there is no evidence of the system that would be required to make all this. The towns, the production shops, the mines, the processing plants, the factories, the manufacturing plants, the smelting plants, the refineries, the schools to train people to work in these industries and the universitiyes and scientific establishment to carry on the basic research required for all of it. And on top of that, these kinds of things can't reasonably be said to just pop up out of nothing, there'd be a development process, an upbuilding of a society. Why would the primitive remains of tpre-technological societies survive the catastrophe, but not the 'advanced ancient tech', or even the ancient tech that is similar to and more primitive than modern tech? There'd have to be an unreasonably selective destruction of evidence, some bizzare wipe out that happens to leave, not just no evidence of its occurance, but evidence of other history that was going on at the time, and one that better fits the history of the rest of the world than the actual history?

An extraordinary thing like that would require quite a bit more than 'references'.

[edit on 13-1-2005 by Nygdan]



posted on Jan, 13 2005 @ 10:27 PM
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If moderators are watching, please take note of the second quote from Captain Ron here. I am refraining from entering into a racist/cultural flame war despite his attempts cast the history of my people in a negative light wall exhalting his own and hinting at their future dominance.
If this behavior from Ron continues unchecked I will expect to be similiarly unchecked when I cut loose on him.



Originally posted by CaptainRon
Vagabond,

Continuing from the other discussion at ancient nuclear war, i would like to tell u that i am extremely disgraced by such statment of urs


I can understand why people would want to maintain the mystery behind an object which is all that remains of an ancient temple, especially when a temple destroyed by foreigners when the mysterious object serves to glorify the history of your people.

Although I understand the rules and regulations of this forum, and also realise that not all americans are like you, i wouldn't speak my true mind.

But as a counter statement i could say "I understand why people like you tend to disbelieve and discredit posts and discussion of ancient civilisations... Thats becuase un fortunately you havent had any of your own! You books start from somewhere when NA was under Britain and end at gulf war(as you said). You people have trouble putting in history in books, whereas our scholars have trouble reducing it (considering only the official and proven history). I wont be surprised when ur history books will be speaking of clinton and lewinsky."


My statement is accurate, as is yours. Religious bias is a common factor in perceptions of history. The West is rejecting the misconceptions which we once felt were necessitated by the Bible, for example the Young Earth theory has fallen out of favor.
Indian favor towards theories which defy most evidence simply because they are based on the Vedas are the result of religious bias and can not be granted full credit by a serious scholar. No statement about biases in the West, much less the completely irrelevant comment on Monica Lewinsky, can challenge this fact.



hmm Glory... Glory of Indians u talking about Mr Vagabond? Aparently the language I and you are speaking in is a rotten derivative of Sanskrit. We still have Sanskrit as a part of the regular course.
As for our glory, we Indians, well I dont want to convert this post into a flame post, but see Indian-borns have already made into the american government. Day by day americans loose their jobs to off shoring in India (India being an IT Superpower now). Microsoft gets its hardest to resolve bugs done by hired indian programmers. Britishers are already screaming Indians go home... just like we used to scream at them to leave our country.

You claim not to want a flame war, then you blatantly begin one by making ignorantly claiming that a handful of circumstances point to India's inevitable dominance (and implied superiority) over the West. Your analysis, on top of being irrelevant and inflamitory in nature, is incorrect as a projection fo geo-poltical trends (Unless China and Russia cease to exist). I'm not letting you draw me into a racist arguement- period. Notice that when I say this, I mean it; I don't follow it with a series of racist flames on your country.

You can't make me ashamed of my heritage with a few under-thought quips about the demographics, politics, and economics of the future, nor with your allegations that my people have no history. I know where my people have been and what they've done, and more importantly I know who I am and what I've done.



And dear Vagabond, I promise you that after graduating I will come down to ur country and earn maybe 5 times of what u earn currently... then come back to my country and invest it the way I feel.

Lets see... As a journeyman operating engineer my payscale is about 32 dollars an hour, plus overtime, plus vacation pay, plus insurance, plus pension. You'll need to make nearly half a million dollars yearly to meet your goal of 5 times my income, and that's if I just kept working the daily grind. Instead I've decided to start school next fall and plan on either operating my own company or moving through the ranks in my union.



Unfortunately I dun find time from my studies to perform a research on almost every thing that comes my way, but I can reply to some of ur statements.

Although your lack of research has left you with shockingly little to say. I hate to break it to you, but you're out of your league trying to flame me. I love learning, I love arguing- this is how I spend my free time when I'm not tinkering with one of my vehicles.



I remember talking about the Pyramid stuff. The initial point was where is the infra structure needed to build such weapons and equipments.


Ancient Egypt had plenty of infrastructure to build the pyramid. They needed a few hundred people to assemble the pyramid, a few more to quarry stone with basic hand tools, a few good engineers, and trade routes to obtain timber.



You tell me that that guy, whatever his name is, can build a pyramid with basic physics in somewhat his life time. This person took a top down approach. I mean having known all the technology in current world, he proved that pyramids could be built with basic levers fulcrums and ramps.

Listen to what you're saying. You are arguing that the clever application of basic mechanical principals was beyond ancient man, and therefore ancient man must have used far superior technology. What field do you plan to make 5 times my income in? My guess is you'll end up as a plant manager at Granite Construction- they aren't too quick on the uptake. I wish I was kidding, but I've seen one of these men needing to have basic subtraction explained to him.



That was exactly what I wanted to tell u. Considering making a pyramid in todays world with that guys theory would be absolute foolishness. And exactly in the same way construction of nuclear weapons in that time without a today like infrastructure doesnt seem possible, but was possible at that time, just like the pyramids.


That doesn't follow at all. It is plain to see that Egypt had the very simple infrastructure required for a pyramid. That is not the case with Indian infrastructure to support nuclear weapons.



And anyway you wouldn't need roads when u had anti-gravity based aircraft

Chicken and the egg my friend. There had to be roads in the earlier phases of that civilization before their technology developed to flight. I can't wait till you're my boss. I'm going to have so much fun telling you how to do your job, and I'm guessing that against wits like yours I could embezzle to my heart's content without being caught.



Anyway, well after so much of discussion on this stuff I do agree that we dont have concrete proof of this fact that there did exist an advanced civilization (the only proof being the documentation). But just think of it, suppose the whole world was about to suddenly end today. What would u save for the next generation to survive and learn about their ancestors? Basically u could save nothing except urself. All that u cud do was vocally pass the info to next gen, who could then document it in their own language... and later call it sorcery and absurd science and low grade theories (like u said) and push the books in dustbins.


This is the most reasonable thing you've said so far because it acknowledges the weakness of the documentation without compromising your right to believe in it. I don't ask anyone to renounce it, only to acknowledge that it is not "absolute proof". The only fly in the buttermilk is that there are no ruins or artifacts, and there should be.



Anyway useless discussion... I think all those who believe in the ancient civilization must rather try to convert the descriptions in the books to working models in todays world... like the indian scientist who made the radar absorbing glass material. Atleast me, I will definitly try pursuing this as a hobby career.

Best of luck to you. Just in the interest of idle conversation, if you think we can have one without getting into a racist dogfight, I don't suppose you have any theories on technology in other religions do you?
Personally I have questions about most aspects of every religion, however I have heard some amusing claims about hidden technology in the Jewish kabbalah and such, not to mention some Nazi interest in Buddhism in addition to Hinduism.



posted on Jan, 13 2005 @ 10:35 PM
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Nygdan, thank you for contributing an additional voice of reason to this thread. I was beginning to think that dogmatic support of debunked theories was condoned here.

I've got an answer on that passage for you. I searched sacred-texts for the passage and couldn't find it, but Indigo turned it up. It is not nearly as mystical as it sounds in this translation


Originally posted by Nygdan

Gurkha, flying a swift and powerful vimana
hurled a single projectile charged with the power
of the Universe. An incandescent column of
smoke and flame, as bright as ten thousand suns, rose with
all its splendor.




It was an unknown weapon, an iron thunderbolt, a gigantic
messenger of death, which reduced to ashes the entire race
of the Vrishnis and the Andhakas.







Here are the relavant passages: www.sacred-texts.com...

"When the next day came, Samva actually brought forth an iron bolt through which all the individuals in the race of the Vrishnis and the Andhakas became consumed into ashes. Indeed, for the destruction of the Vrishnis and the Andhakas, Samva brought forth, through that curse, a fierce iron bolt that looked like a gigantic messenger of death. The fact was duly reported to the king. In great distress of mind, the king (Ugrasena) caused that iron bolt to be reduced into fine powder.
Vaishampayana said: "While the Vrishnis and the Andhakas were thus endeavouring (to avoid the impending calamity), the embodied form of Time (death) every day wandered about their houses. He looked like a man of terrible and fierce aspect. Of bald head, he was black and of tawny complexion. Sometimes be was seen by the Vrishnis as he peered into their houses. The mighty bowmen among the Vrishnis shot hundreds and thousands of shafts at him, but none of these succeeded in piercing him, for he was none else than the Destroyer of all creatures. Day by day strong winds blew, and many were the evil omens that arose, awful and foreboding the destruction of the Vrishnis and the Andhakas. The streets swarmed with rats and mice. Earthen pots showed cracks or broke from no apparent cause. At night, the rats and mice ate away the hair and nails of slumbering men. Sarikas chirped, sitting within the houses of the Vrishnis. The noise made by those birds ceased not for even a short while by day or by night. The Sarashas were heard to imitate the hooting of the owl, and goats imitated the cries, O Bharata, of jackals. Many birds appeared, impelled by Death, that were pale of complexion but that had legs red of hue.


Indigo has called the above text a product of "period bias" because the writer at the time didn't know about nuclear weapons. Ever so close and yet so far from the truth. This is why Indigo found her way back to my ignore list- you can't hope to reason with a person so hopelessly comitted to belief.


on the drawings
the diagrams (produced much more recently I might add) of the three
types of Vimana are strange. One looks like it could fly at a fast rate
(it is saucer shaped). The others simply cannot -- one is a four-sided
pyramid with a crystal on top and propellers on all four sides. The
intended direction of flight is clearly such that the point of the pyramid
faces up (against the direction of gravity) and the base down.


The drawings weren't even included in the 1959 release of Vaimanika Shastra. They turned up in the 1979 english version. They may be the product of the engineer who looked at (and tampered with) the descriptions in 1923.



posted on Jan, 13 2005 @ 10:38 PM
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you are calling a few small pieces of evidence 'proof' and claiming that 'proof' and 'truth' are subjective and that technically you cant prove anything at all. yeah, you can.
say a kid walks into a candy store, and walks out w/o buying anything. the cashier develops a theory that the kid stole something. detains the kid and watches the store video - finds the video of the kid taking the candy and searches the kid and finds the candy.

that is proof.

what you have is a candywrapper on the sidewalk with no-one in sight.



posted on Jan, 13 2005 @ 10:59 PM
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Vagabond makes sense to me, and Indigo Child doesn't.

All the correlation between the stuff in these ancient Hindu texts (which may not be so ancient after all) is, as far as I'm concerned, just someone who lives in the Atomic Age saying, in effect:

"Aieee! that sounds just like an nuclear explosion."

"Therefore, it MUST HAVE BEEN an nuclear explosion!"

And yet you can say exactly the same thing about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah in the Bible being "proof" of a nuclear device; or Joshua in front of Jericho as "proof" of his infrasonic weapon; or the Great Flood in the Epic of Gilgamesh as "proof" of a huge watery comet striking the Earth; or the twin brothers getting their severed heads put back in the Mayan Popul Vuh as "proof" of ancient nanosurgical techniques, and so on, ad absurdum, ad nauseam.

Sorry, Indigo. As far as I'm concerned, it's just wishful thinking on your part. Not only is it not "proof" -- it's not even "evidence".


[edit on 13-1-2005 by Off_The_Street]



posted on Jan, 14 2005 @ 03:21 AM
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Originally posted by Off_The_Street
"Aieee! that sounds just like an nuclear explosion."

"Therefore, it MUST HAVE BEEN an nuclear explosion!"

Curious question: What other weapon has such effects?

I mean, its not like its "big boom - everyone die - OH IT MUST BE A NUCLEAR BOMB". The text explicitly describes what happens.

Anyway, if this work is "channeled" and not history, it is done by the greatest prophet ever to have existed in mankinds history. Everyone else are wimps in comparison.



posted on Jan, 14 2005 @ 03:46 AM
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Originally posted by instar
"PROOF" appears to be entirely subjective, and longwinded! Its all a matter of "wanting to beleive" anything. Under such mindset skepticism, or any questioning of said "proof" is unacceptable it seems.


[edit on 053131p://13015 by instar]

I say that anyone can question. A five year old can say...is not. But what if the evidence supports the claim and the denier has nothing more than skepticism to offer? I go with the evidence. The Vedas describe timelines in the billions of years. They were no dummies. I have studied ancient civilizations, and their mysterious anomolies all my life. No skeptic has been able to point out exactly why the idea of ancient high tech is flawed. The Piri Reis map, based on a map thousands of years old, has accurate longitude. It shows Antarctica ice free, accurately. This is one of many tangible supporting evidences that ancient man reached a high level of civilization.



posted on Jan, 14 2005 @ 03:50 AM
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Sorry, I am not interested in the self-proclaimed intellectuals. I use the word intellectuals loosely. If you do not accept something as proof or even evidence, it does not mean it is not proof and evidence. In the middle ages people did not accept the earth as a sphere, that did not cause the Earth to become flat. It just means you don't accept it as such. That's alright, that is your pregoative. Although, it's hardly flattering to be of the same intellectual mindset as a flat-earther. I guess you folks are a reality of life that we progressive folks have to contend with.

Which is good mind you, we all need forces of antagonism in our life, because they make us even stronger.

However, it really does not matter if you all disagree, because the Indian government and scientific community and various other scientists, scholars and researchers in the world do think it is proof and are exploiting it to benefit our science. I'm with them.

OFS, a person starts to lose their interest when they become predictable. You lost my interest a long time ago.

Vagabond, It seems like your criteria for putting people on your ignore list is when you're losing a debate. Is that the equivalent of an internet tantrum? I said that I will take on the role of an adult in our relationship. I don't put people on my ignore list, even when they can be as annoying, cheap and disrespectful in attitude as you. That is because I am not here to judge people and everyone has a potential for saying something good. I'll wait on you.

However, yesterday, I found something on you, accidentally that is, while searching on google. You registered in May 2004. On the 16th of May 2004, you posted in a topic called "Ancient Atomic Weapons of Mass Destruction" by the member darkangel.

Here is a link to the topic: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Now, when I saw your name in that thread. I thought to myself "great, I know what he's going to say" How wrong was I! It was the complete opposite, not only were you supporting the proposition of an ancient nuclear war, you were using the same examples from the Mahabharata and other Sankrit texts to support it. It was the most spectacular and hypocritical U-turn I have ever seen on ATS. What's even more ironic, the sources you were using and calling proof were from sites like rense.com
Even I would not sell my beliefs that easily.


The Hindu Mahabharata describes what can only be nuclear weapons being dropped from flying craft called vimana. The blast is described as bright as 10000 suns, causing hair and nails to fall out, and contaminating food stuffs.

A city has been found, vitrified and irridaiated in India, near Jomphur. There is no impact crator, and the final blow to the meteor theory is that a meteor would leave heavy traces of irridium. The arguement that nature covered the crater is invalid because there is a city still standing there... there should be a great big commet shaped hole in the city. This city is roughly dated 8000-12000 BC, but since Carbon 14 dating is impossible on an unnaturally irradiated site (because it would turn carbon into radiocarbon) we can't hold that date too firmly.

In 13000 BC, the Younger Dryas iceage began rather abruptly during the warmup from the Older Dryas, which occured roughly 25000 BC. This could be attributed to nuclear winter. Coral and ice samples reveal 4 times the normal finding of uranium around 13000 BC, and in the vitrified sites in India, North America, and Arabia there are annomolies of carbon dating. Lower strata will date as being younger than the strata above, at roughly 13000 BC. This is because something turned carbon in that level into radio-carbon.

A non-vedic follow-on to the Mahabharata describes the propulsion of a Vimana. Samara Sutradhara (battlefield commander) written in the 4th century, describes a chamber containing mercury above an iron box full of fire. A vortex in mercury can be sustained by charging it electically. If the iron box were highly radioactive it would serve to charge the mercury, perpetuating a vortex which at the very least is an effective turbine design, however others suggest that this design is similiar to a theoretically possible fusion engine.

Miniature aircraft, traditionally explained as birds or insects, although they are in no way anatomically correct (and were pointed out by a certain german officer to look EXACTLY like a certain model of fighter) have been found in South America.


The preponderance of evidence for lost technology suggests that an earlier society possessed knowledge now lost (or believed to be lost... ask me what i think about Nazi technology some day).
The timeline shows a series of coincidinces implying a major explosive/radiological event in 13000 BC (which i must volunteer could be explained by the crashing of a meteor composed of large quantites of uranium)... but most meteors are made of ice.
Finally, arachaeology shows a series of impacts which can only be nuclear in nature, excluding the possibility that some entirely unknown natural process can mimic an atom bomb.

This doesn't even seem so crazy when you consider that many civilizations agree that we had otherwordly teachers. The bible speaks not only of fallen angels, but of Enoch, who walked with God and ascended to heaven without dying, being the founder of several sciences. The Greeks have Haephaistos (roman vulcan), cast down to Earth where he shared his gift as a master artisan. They also give us Hermes, who fulfills a more mythical version of Enoch's role. Enoch had a babylonian counterpart named enniki-something, and they were both closely identified with the Egyptian Thoth (the moon god). Enoch, like the flood, shares enough in common with other regional stories to suggest a common origin, and most likely, partial truth. As a general rule, when enough people are telling the same story... expect a bit of truth.

As for lightening... it has to be ball lightening, 3 miles wide, and it has to trigger the fission of a natural uranium deposit. That's the only way it can account for a huge radioactive vitrified circle.


I highly recommend everyone to see Vagabonds posts in this thread. He puts on quite a show, aruging with the skeptics, posting links, citing paragraps as evidence from questionable sources. The whole 9 yards. He started to change as soon as Byrd(super moderator) says "hoax" however.

Now, at first I was really confused why Vagabond was doing this. However it appeared obvious, he wanted attention. If you remember Vagabonds encounter with me in the thread "Iran Capability" just a few weeks ago. he did exactly the same thing. He made a point, then made a point later that negated his earlier point and it was frequent as from paragraph to paragraph. In the end he did not even know what we were debating(I had to remind him
) When I pointed it out for him, he threw a tantrum and left + put me on his ignore list.

I'll say it again Vagabond; you have no integrity. This is not an attack, rather an observation. Well, at least you're not predictable


[edit on 14-1-2005 by Indigo_Child]



posted on Jan, 14 2005 @ 03:54 AM
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These critiques are useless. I have to agree with indigo until a more plausible theory is offered, which has not happened yet. It is the same as the people who, with no knowledge of the subject, claim that it would be easy for us to duplicate the great pyramid. It is no use arguing with them, cuz they don't even care enough to research the subject. How do you argue against someone who has nothing to offer? Just the blanket 'no way'. I say
.....way



posted on Jan, 14 2005 @ 04:49 AM
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Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
The Piri Reis map, based on a map thousands of years old, has accurate longitude. It shows Antarctica ice free, accurately. This is one of many tangible supporting evidences that ancient man reached a high level of civilization.


Allow me to provide you with verifiable evidence regarding the origin of the Piri Reis map.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

The Southern Continent isn't a seperate continent. It's Argentina.

Look at the map with a critical eye- it is posted in the thread I linked you to. It shows Brazil, then a river (The Parana) then the coast transitions to "antarctica". Where is the southern half of South America?

Admiral Reis (Piri wasn't his name- it means Admiral) was working from a collection of maps. He couldn't see everything at once. He started drawing in too large a scale and ran out of room on his parchment. Rather than waste it, he turned the coast eastward and continued his drawing of South America.

This observation is supported in several ways. 1. There are terrain features in the map of "antarctica" which correspond to terrain features identifiable on a modern Atlas, especially the Peninsula Valdes and the large protrusion in the coastline just South of the Gulf of San Jorge.


I would like to just point out a couple fo small errors in the map I linked to. The rivers pointed out are probably not the Parana but the Negro and Colorado respectively. The 50 degree line of latitude is marked just south of the Gulf of San Jorge, but now that I have a better map, that would actually be slightly further south.
These are negligible corrections which do not change the striking similarities between the southern landmass and South America.


EDIT: By the way, you have said that people are just sitting back and idly claiming we know how the Pyramids were built. Did you even bother to click the link I provided? The man produced videotapes of himself singlehandedly manipulating multi-ton concrete blocks and even stacking them in stone-henge fashion. A single man can hoist a multi-ton rock over 6 feet into the air and ballance it atop two others which he has stood erect, and you're saying his theory on how to manipulate large stones into the form of a pyramid is probably wrong?
He even points out how the shafts in the pyramids would have been useful as passages for rope to assisst in the movement of stones up the side, demonstrating that his technique could have been applied to the pyramids.

[edit on 14-1-2005 by The Vagabond]



posted on Jan, 14 2005 @ 05:05 AM
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Again the wonderful question of artefacts comes up!

A large section of the planet devastated by nukes would still show the scars today by higher background radiation, and since were talking about high tech civilization, a city reduced to slag with some surviving structures (remember your hiroshima pictures) Also there would be large numbers of mutants and people with genetic defects in the attacked regions. Nuclear weapons also require reprocessing facilities and there would be quite large dumps of uranium and other byproducts in the area.

Are there any of these? nope. There was no modern day equivilant civilisation in India, we would have found something of them by now, in the most densly populated part of the planet an entire hyper advanced civilisations remnants cant remain hidden!

Perhaps there was once an advanced civilisation in India, on a par with the Roman empire of maybe even beyond it that was wiped out at the end of the ice age. Alternatively there were some imaginative authors who wrote intruiging fiction that could confuse people who thought Lord of the Rings was real.



posted on Jan, 14 2005 @ 06:20 AM
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Originally posted by Uncle Joe
Again the wonderful question of artefacts comes up!

A large section of the planet devastated by nukes would still show the scars today by higher background radiation, and since were talking about high tech civilization, a city reduced to slag with some surviving structures (remember your hiroshima pictures) Also there would be large numbers of mutants and people with genetic defects in the attacked regions. Nuclear weapons also require reprocessing facilities and there would be quite large dumps of uranium and other byproducts in the area.

Are there any of these? nope. There was no modern day equivilant civilisation in India, we would have found something of them by now, in the most densly populated part of the planet an entire hyper advanced civilisations remnants cant remain hidden!

Perhaps there was once an advanced civilisation in India, on a par with the Roman empire of maybe even beyond it that was wiped out at the end of the ice age. Alternatively there were some imaginative authors who wrote intruiging fiction that could confuse people who thought Lord of the Rings was real.

That doesnt make sense.

There is not much trace of the Hiroshima blast today, there are no real mutants walking the streets. And that is just in a few measly years (compared to the MANY years we are talking about with the India blasts).



posted on Jan, 14 2005 @ 06:33 AM
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There is no visual evidence of the Hiroshima blast because the city was rebuilt, removing visual evidence of nuclear annihilation beyond a few memorials left behind. Also cancer rates are higher in the city, though i will agree the term mutants is a bit harsh, what i meant was that there would be a higher tate of birth defects such as those seen around Chernobyl.

However there is still no reply on the lack of nuclear apparatus, uranium mines, waste dumps etc, could it be because they dont exist?

[edit on 14-1-2005 by Uncle Joe]



posted on Jan, 14 2005 @ 06:53 AM
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Originally posted by The Vagabond I was beginning to think that dogmatic support of debunked theories was condoned here.

I find the subject very interesting adn the possibilities exciting. Wouldn't it be great if it were true!?


I've got an answer on that passage for you. I searched sacred-texts for the passage and couldn't find it, but Indigo turned it up. It is not nearly as mystical as it sounds in this translation

Excellent work on that translation by the way. I can see how someone would think 'hey, this Iron Bolt, it kinda sounds like a missile, especially since they seem to distinguish between it and what 'bowmen' shoot". But it gets reduced to a 'fine powder', a missle doesn't survive the strike, nor does it make pots crack and shatter without cause nor make goats bark like jackals.


The drawings weren't even included in the 1959 release of Vaimanika Shastra. They turned up in the 1979 english version

Interesting.


Sorry, I am not interested in the self-proclaimed intellectuals

And yet you are so self absorbed.


It just means you don't accept it as such. That's alright, that is your pregoative

Its not a matter of prerogative. You have presented these texts as absolute irrefutable proof. If it were a matter of ones personal beleifs whether one accepts it or not, then it'd have nothing to do with prerogative. People in the middle ages thought that the earth was flat, primarily because they didn't even think about the shape of the earth. The people that investigated the problem found out it was round. The ones relying soley on translations of ancient texts were the ones that were mistaken.


because the Indian government and scientific community and various other scientists, scholars and researchers in the world do think it is proof and are exploiting it to benefit our science. I'm with them.

What the nationalist government claimed to have been doing and what it actually did are two different things. Again, when they produced flying machines, they were western planes, not indian vimanas. When they produced nukes, they were western nukes, not these 'ancient indian nuclear devices'. What actual research is being done on these ancient technologies? I think you had alluded to some 'alloy' that was described. How does the text describe the production process? Or does it not really describe anything, and a materials scientist is reading his own knowledge into the text?

It was the most spectacular and hypocritical U-turn I have ever seen on ATS.

Vagabond is a hypocrit becuase he changed his mind? Weren't you saying earlier that you used to have real problems with gays but now you don't? Does that make you a hypocrit? Or does that make your current accusation of hypocrisy even more hypocritical?


merka
There is not much trace of the Hiroshima blast today, there are no real mutants walking the streets. And that is just in a few measly years

Yes, but its a 'few measly years' in which the whole of japanese civilization was able to clear up, remove, restore and rebuild the two towns, and the claim is for weapons more powerful and used on a much larger scale an in much greater numbers. The hiroshima and nagasaki bombings didn't destroy japan, they reduced most of two cities to rubble. And, importantly, those blasts didn't magically replace the city with an entirely new set of artefacts and history, as is had for indian archaeology.



posted on Jan, 14 2005 @ 06:56 AM
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Originally posted by Uncle Joe

However there is still no reply on the lack of nuclear apparatus, uranium mines, waste dumps etc, could it be because they dont exist?


True enough... But there could be any number of possible explanations to that.

For example, they could have found a way to minimize waste and made it deteriorate faster. They could probably have launched it into the sun if they wanted. And facilities could easily be gone today, just like any cities.

Mines is of course a trickier question. But they could for example be submerged today: Impossible for us to see. Maybe they where able to make fake uranium somehow, didnt need the real thing. Maybe they didnt use uranium at all.

We are pretty primitive in our nuclear experience. What if we had 1,000 years of experience (or 100 for that matter)? Think on it.

Edit:


Yes, but its a 'few measly years' in which the whole of japanese civilization was able to clear up, remove, restore and rebuild the two towns, and the claim is for weapons more powerful and used on a much larger scale an in much greater numbers

Larger scale? If I'm not mistaken in my reading, this weapon was noted as "banned" by the "gods" due to its destructive power. Doubt it was used very much. Well I'm no expert on it.

[edit on 14-1-2005 by merka]

[edit on 14-1-2005 by merka]



posted on Jan, 14 2005 @ 07:03 AM
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Lots of evasion and no facts, mines 'could be' submerged, the facilities 'could' have dissapeared, the background radiation could' have gone down.

Or they had hyper advanced technology after 1000 years of nuclear experiments. Yet at no point did they build any cities anywhere except in India, never set things into space and all their artefacts were on the coast and submerged at the end of the ice age.

Very, very complicated. Ever heard of Occams Razor?





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