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Originally posted by Uncle Joe
Lots of evasion and no facts, mines 'could be' submerged, the facilities 'could' have dissapeared, the background radiation could' have gone down.
Or they had hyper advanced technology after 1000 years of nuclear experiments. Yet at no point did they build any cities anywhere except in India, never set things into space and all their artefacts were on the coast and submerged at the end of the ice age.
Very, very complicated. Ever heard of Occams Razor?
Originally posted by Nygdan
Originally posted by The Vagabond I was beginning to think that dogmatic support of debunked theories was condoned here.
I find the subject very interesting adn the possibilities exciting. Wouldn't it be great if it were true!?
Excellent work on that translation by the way. I can see how someone would think 'hey, this Iron Bolt, it kinda sounds like a missile, especially since they seem to distinguish between it and what 'bowmen' shoot". But it gets reduced to a 'fine powder', a missle doesn't survive the strike, nor does it make pots crack and shatter without cause nor make goats bark like jackals.
The drawings weren't even included in the 1959 release of Vaimanika Shastra. They turned up in the 1979 english version
It was the most spectacular and hypocritical U-turn I have ever seen on ATS.
Vagabond is a hypocrit becuase he changed his mind? Weren't you saying earlier that you used to have real problems with gays but now you don't? Does that make you a hypocrit? Or does that make your current accusation of hypocrisy even more hypocritical?
Originally posted by Uncle Joe
So what if they considred the whole eastern hermisphere as their territory? Doesnt make em real!
Why not research the facinating and real (notice that word there, its important!) cultures of ancient India rather than making up daft cultures that wouldnt even make the grade as bad sci fi?
Originally posted by aryaputhra
"The perception of the absence of proof is no proof of the proof's absence."
[edit on 14-1-2005 by aryaputhra]
Stories from a corpus of texts that are largely untranslateand unreadible outside of sanskrit cannot be used as proof of anything.
In the tv example, you have placed a modern understanding on whatever the text describes, and have not descirbed television in any workable way. All you have is a translation that you are saying talks about mirrors and 'electricity' and 'chemicals'. I would be surprised if the texts had an understanding of electricity or chemicals and the atomic elements.
What weapon is this supposed to be like? It vaguely sounds like smart weapons that seek out a pre-programmed target. Or is sounds like a magic weapon a god made to attack his enemies.
If nuclear weapons were being used there would probably (but not definitly, at least as far as I understand it) be evidence of that use, such as bizzare and unnatural ratios of radionuclides. or the slag left over from a city being bombed.
What is the history of the translation of this text? Do all translations have this take on it, or just one?
on one of two possibilities on the source document
2. The contents were "channelled" or "psychically transmitted" to the
author from long dead rishis, sages, "scientists" or whatever. This
interpretation makes some sense because all throughout the text there are subsections (in each main section that is devoted to a single topic) in
each main section where it is said, "Maharishi so-and-so says:". Often
what these other people say are openenly admitted as contradictory in some (minor) details what a different sage has said on the topic
under discussion; else these other people just add additional information
appropriate to that section of the overall text. So the text clearly
reads as a wierd discussion among dead sages, rishis, scientists or
whatever all simultaneously contributing to the overall text.
on the drawings
the diagrams (produced much more recently I might add) of the three
types of Vimana are strange. One looks like it could fly at a fast rate
(it is saucer shaped). The others simply cannot -- one is a four-sided
pyramid with a crystal on top and propellers on all four sides. The
intended direction of flight is clearly such that the point of the pyramid
faces up (against the direction of gravity) and the base down.
Lots of mythological/historical texts talk about flying things. This does not mean that there were advanced jets flitting about. Moreover, if you feel that the indian desciptions are valid, what about other descriptions from other cultures?
I am unfamiliar with this excavation, but from what I understand Rao is recognized as being an accomplished underwater archaeologist. What does that have to do with advanced technology tho? Did his researches confirm the method of destruction in the vedic text?
Why is it supposed to be talking about the speed of light? It says the speed of the sun, which doesn't even move, except in appearance to move across the sky?
I honestly don't see how anyone can consider all of that irefutable proof of anything, unless one has very low values of proof. All that has been done is to find some interesting descriptions that could very well be ancient man's way of thinking of advanced technology. But that is certainly not the only explanation for the flying stuff and big fires and weird apparatii in the descriptions above. Also, if that is the explanation one looks for, then it brings up the problem of having this text corrupted throughout by people who didn't understand what they were talking about, and yet is also supposed to be reliable enough to recreate these things. And then of course there is the problem of this stuff not actually being re-created. When india built its nukes, it didn't build these super-nukes. It built regular old nukes. Its airforce isn't made up of supersonice chakra powered composite technology vimanas, but regular old jets. I understand that you are saying the knowledge was lost, but they forget how to make, say, guns, but not the speed of light in a vaccuum? And then do nothing with it?
The major problem of course is that there is no evidence of the system that would be required to make all this. The towns, the production shops, the mines, the processing plants, the factories, the manufacturing plants, the smelting plants, the refineries, the schools to train people to work in these industries and the universitiyes and scientific establishment to carry on the basic research required for all of it. And on top of that, these kinds of things can't reasonably be said to just pop up out of nothing, there'd be a development process, an upbuilding of a society. Why would the primitive remains of tpre-technological societies survive the catastrophe, but not the 'advanced ancient tech', or even the ancient tech that is similar to and more primitive than modern tech? There'd have to be an unreasonably selective destruction of evidence, some bizzare wipe out that happens to leave, not just no evidence of its occurance, but evidence of other history that was going on at the time, and one that better fits the history of the rest of the world than the actual history?
An extraordinary thing like that would require quite a bit more than 'references'.
Originally posted by Uncle Joe
100% likely to be incorrect one way or another? meaning historians could be wrong? yes very likely, historians regularly find themselves to be wrong when new eidence emerges.
Doesnt make ancient civilisations with nuclear power though.
All im asking for a a shred of physical evidence that hasnt been debunked that suggests a hyper advanced civilisation existed anyhwhere in the world! And it must be physical in the sense that it isnt an ancient legend or a folk story or a mystic prophecy found by studying the spleens of antelopes! Is that too much to ask?
Originally posted by BlackGuardXIII
You are blind, the shred......lol is hard to miss
It is a structure that no modern engineer or scientist has credibly explained. It contains 2.3 million meticulously cut blocks. is 200 times more precisely square than modern buildings, and contains a 200 ton granite slab, 225 feet up, which is a puzzling feat in itself. The logistics of duplicating it as perfectly as the original are beyond todays best minds.
If that is not a 'shred' I give up.
You don't want proof, you want to think that no one ever was as great as us.....well I say they were far greater.
btw, should you find a legitimate plan for how we could copy it, please let me know....I haven't yet....in 20 years.
Originally posted by Indigo_Child
Well, the ancient Indian texts are certainly not going to be in English now, are they?
They can be used as proof, if what is translated, actually works. And according to a whole team of Indian scientists. It does.
Not only that it also gives the formula for creating the components of it. That's not science fiction; that's science.
According to Indian texts there were five main elements, fire, earth, water, air and ether.
All elements, except ether, were believed to be physical and could be subdivided into miniscule particles until the last particle, that could not divided any further. This was called the Paramnu, or the atom.
Kanada postulated that all substances were composed of unique parmanus's and had their own properties.
He further postlated that two parmanus of the same substance can be made to combine under a reaction to form a binary molecule, he called a Dwinuka. The Dwinuka assumed similar properties to the two parent parmanus.
He also said that an object feels heavier in water than in air, because the density of parmanus in water are heavier than the air.
Are you surprised yet?
There is an actual description of a smart weapon as well. When Krishna deploys an aastra that seeks out sound to down a cloaked enemy aircraft.
Nonetheless, if it is true, what else do you want?
The only major differences is the meteroite and "rats eating hairs and nails of sleeping people" It sounds like a period bias to me. I can see how easy it would be for a 19th century translator to mistake the efflugence of ten thousand suns, and smoke and fire in the sky, to be a meteorite. And sudden decaying hair and nails, to be rats.
I can understand how it would be difficult to accept channeled or psychically recieved texts. However, these texts have also documented evidence in the past.
And the fact that the prescribed alloys can be fabricated by modern scientists, is irrefutable.
Unless of course, you think all these Indian scientists are lying.
The actual illustrations did not exist in the original VS texts according to researchers. It is most likely that the illustrations were just Shastry attempting to make sense of it with his own imagination.
Well, exactly, flying machines are a common features of all cultures, and they all refer to is as part of their history. So, it's highly arrogant of us to call it mythology and dismiss it. Henceforth, why I am insisting on being open-minded and to test the veracity of this mythology as history.
is simply because it has the most detailed existing records
It is a given that if the hi-tech ancient Indian civilization existed, then so did others.
Did his researches confirm the method of destruction in the vedic text?
The sun is what gives us light.
The light reaches us at 2,220 yognas in a half a nimesa.
It's pretty darn obvious it is talking about the speed of light.
was considered infinite until Olaf Roemer calculated it in 1676.
The Indian government did not take VS serious until an Italian scientist at an ISRO meeting pointed it out for them.
It is rumoured, though something that cannot be substanitated, that WWII Nazi scientists were very fascinated by ancient sankrit documents and Hitler sent expeditions into Tibet to find ancient sankrit documents. It cannot really be denied that a lot of aerospace technology, like pulse-jets and atomic weapon(theory) came from Germany.
However, Indian scientists have reported success with the VS and built certain yantras described in it.
However, the more advanced yantras, like anti gravity
Heavenly races from others parts of the universe that intermingle with human society, often using humans as slave labor.
It is certainly interesting that wars would be fought on battlefields with maces, swords, bows and arrows, elephants. Yet, at the same time, certain elite would have weapons of advanced technology and use special yantras.
Indeed, they will not, this means that they allways have to be re-translated and re-interpreted.
I have not seen any examples of these texts giving yeilding advanced tech.
Whats the formula?
According to Indian texts there were five main elements, fire, earth, water, air and ether.
This demonstrates that they do not have an understanding of the elements or their properties. It also demonstrates that they were using a conception of the 'elemental' that is rather universal, not technologically advanced.
This is simply not what an atom is. You can't subdivide 'fire' and get atoms. Subdividing water only gives you water molecules, until you smash the molecule itself, which yeilds actual elements that are not water. This indian conception is similar to the idea that everything is made up of different proportions of earth/air/fire/water etc, which is not an atomic theory. Democritus' atomic theory is much more advanced and prescient than this.
Absolutely nothing like atomic science. If they beleived this then they had no understanding of chemistry. Oxygen and Hydrogen, explosive gases, combine to form water, which supresses fire. The properties of the molecules are not related to the properties of the atoms. Also, this is 600 BC, I thought you were saying that this knowledge was largely lost or only contained in truly ancient scriptures after the Catastrophic War?
I am dissapointed. I am also interested in Kanada's atomic theory and the connectiosn with greek atomism. However, based on your poor takes of the more controversial texts, I fear that you may also be pushing this text.
Describe how you distinguish between 'smart weapons' and magic weapons?
Similarly, a person in the modern period might mistake these descriptions for advanced technology.
But the rats bias, that is more than bias. Thats fraud, thats inserting words that simply do not exist. If the sanskrit text says c.f. 'peoples hair and nails fell out' and a translator translates as 'rats ate peoples hair when they slept', well, the original text will bear it out as fraud. I think that one cannot suggest, therefore, that it was a fraudulent insertion.
Such as what? And why does correctness on some things imply correctness on all things?
I suspect that they have allowed their own bias to creep into their results, however I would like to see the relevant published papers before I actually suggest that that is the case.
What else did shastry add?
All well and good, however you have no methodology for testing these stories. Surely not ever 'myth' is passed on ancient science textbooks. Which are real and which are just myth? By what method do you distinguish between them?
There are only, however, a few texts that are thuroughly translated. The mahbatra hasn't been translated in full, as far as I am aware.
So his researches did not infact confirm the method of destruction noted in the text then? The discovery of an ancient city mentioned in an ancient text does not prove that everything that text talks about is true.
If they understood light enough to calculate its speed I would think that they'd have a name for it and use that name, rather than erronesouly calling it the 'sun'.
Obvious? Its written in a language thats thousands of years old. There are no other interpretations of the text?
And yet you said it requires advanced tech to calculate it. What did Roemer have that the ancient indians didn't? Nevertheless, I would be surprised to find out that they figured it out. How come they never made use of it?
Odd then, that an italian who had to learn sanskrit and science was the one to realize these 'advanced techs', and not the people writting them.
But there is nothing suggesting that they used those documents. Jet engine technology and rocket technology did not pop up ad hoc, they had to be developed.
Again, I would like to see the actual reports of the objects built and the corresponding procedure in the texts. I suspect that the people doing this are reading a text, assuming it must've meant this or that, and then figuring out a way to build it.
Where is there a description of the law of gravity in these ancient texts? If they are building machines then they must at least know and record that. Also, if the texts accurately describe how to build the devices, as you noted above with the simpler machines, then they would result in being able to build advanced technology too. The fact that no advanced technologies are comming out of this would fit with my suggestion above.
I do not doubt that one can make any idea refutation proof. However, if the events were such that they erased all evidence of their occurance, then how can one state that they occured? Surely, if these guys could record these texts, describing how to make the tech, and preserve these texts thru the ages, they'd've been able to preserve some of the flying machines and such, or, heck, they'd be able to preserve the secret of making concrete, or at least iron age technology.
It should not be expected that the rulers have great weapons while the masses have less impressive ones. King Arthur had excalibre, everyone else had swords and sticks. The hittites had advanced battle wagons, their subjects had darts. The Persians had wicker shields, the greeks iron tipped spears. None of this requires alien intervention and therefore neither does a disparity of tech amoung the indians. And, again, these other texts describe gods interfereing with the battle, transporting humans, knocking people over, etc, etc. Its understood that this is mythology. These indian texts are apparently no different, and they certainly can not sensibly be presented as irrefutable evidence of ancient technology more advanced than today.
Listen to what you're saying. You are arguing that the clever application of basic mechanical principals was beyond ancient man, and therefore ancient man must have used far superior technology. What field do you plan to make 5 times my income in? My guess is you'll end up as a plant manager at Granite Construction- they aren't too quick on the uptake. I wish I was kidding, but I've seen one of these men needing to have basic subtraction explained to him.
Originally posted by Indigo_Child
with foreign language texts. However, as I said to Vagabond earlier,
Sankrit is the mother language of all Indo-European languages
have produced them already. Here it is again
What you understand to be elements is a modern prejudice, where an element is catagorized by it's atomic number
So, yes, it is made of particles
And energy according to quantum mechanics is made of discreet multiples.
Further, water is not water without hydrogen and oxygen, and the Indians are indeed correct in saying that it can be subdivided until the atoms.
Kanada has explictly said that atoms combine under chemical reactions to form matter
He is also absolutely correct that all substances have their own unique atoms
The greeks invaded India just before they propounded their ideas on atoms, did they not?
I am not what there is to be disappointed aboutYou asked for an understanding of atomic and chemical theory, and I gave it to you.
And what is evidence?
Well, that is my point. I don't think it is fraud as much as guessing.
You don't get it, do you? The texts are not translated by the scientists, but by a team of Sanskrit scholars. The translation is then given to the scientists and they follow it the formula
By analysing and comparing.
Yes, it has. There is an entire Mahabharata translation on sacred-text.com
The city had sunk into the ocean. What it proves is that Mahabharata is actually based on history
I've already explained the units in my original post
The modern Indian government and scientists did not write the texts.
You cannot accidentally make pizza if you're trying to make cake.
If they actually made the materials described, then it's only because it is real.
The Vimanas do seem to work on some kind of anti-gravity technology, or at least some of them. They don't need run ways, they can lift of vertically, turn sideways, remain motionless in mid-air, zig-zag, speed etc.
Maybe they did, and if a government got a hold of them, I doubt they tell the public about it.
The difference here is while the foot solider has a sword or a spear, the elite have flying aircraft, missiles and weapons of mass destruction.
Originally posted by CaptainRon
First of all Vagabond, if you can track back our discussion from Ancient Nuclear war, you made a scandalizing comment regarding my country, and you were the starter of it!
VAgabond!!! In what manner did u take my theory??? I aint that dumb to say something like that!
What I meant was, if on todays date i was to ask you to build a pyramid, would you take the approach of using basic levers and fulcrums and spend your life time making one pyramid, or would you use heavy machinery and automated control systems? Obviously the latter. What I wanted to prove was exactly this, that u are taking a the-today-infrastructure view on developing nuclear weapons. The same way while taking the case of nuclear weapons, one could have been built with basic science and without the use of any ultra-huge infra structure. Indian Nuclear test on may 18 1974 was done in extreme crude state after the chinese had carried out their tests. That time India didnt have the extensive infrastructure either, but the aim was to match the chinese.
Vagabond, I think you should consider Plant manager job for yourself... people like you with ample free time and brains in knees will make good deal there. And anyway it seems you took my five-times income promise too much on ur heart... Relax buddy we will talk about that 5 years from now, or maybe I'll show up to u personally :p
Panini's grammar has been evaluated from various points of view. After all these different evaluations, I think that the grammar merits asserting ... that it is one of the greatest monuments of human intelligence.
> Panini's Sanskrit grammar, produced in about 300 BC, is the shortest and
> fullest grammar in the world. According to Sir Monier-Williams,
> (Englishman, Sanskrit scholar 1819-1899):
> "The Panini grammar reflects the wondrous capacity of the human brain
> which till today no other country has been able to produce except India".
Surprisingly according to the bi-monthly Ancient Skies published in USA, the aircraft engines being developed for future use by NASA by some strange coincidence also uses mercury bombardment units powered by Solar cells!