Utah gay wedding expo connects couples, friendly businesses

originally posted by: veracity
a reply to: Boadicea

I guess what you have to take into consideration is the hurt felt by those who are discriminated against. They are having their rights trampled on. By doing nothing...they are hurt even more.

That is why it is a must to force people to respect civil rights. Its a good thing to do anyway.

YES!!!!!!!

originally posted by: veracity
a reply to: Boadicea

I guess what you have to take into consideration is the hurt felt by those who are discriminated against.

Actually, I am taking their feelings into account. I just think they are far better served by those who would serve them for all the right reasons, and actually respecting and promoting their right to freedom of association and trade... those who will give them the best value for their buck happily. Forcing service does not guarantee better service, and feelings can still be hurt (and no doubt will).

They are having their rights trampled on. By doing nothing...they are hurt even more.

But we can do something better!

That is why it is a must to force people to respect civil rights. Its a good thing to do anyway.

Force -- and punishment -- grants too much power that can be just as easily used against us. And it is not necessary to gain the desired results (unless the desired result is simply revenge.)

That's my sticking point. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

a reply to: Annee

I'm never going to agree with your "Rolling the Dice" road to Equal Treatment.

Yeah, I got that... hence the mischaracterization of my position as basically a crap shoot, rather than acknowledging the practical, proactive and productive ways I have suggested that could accomplish the same goal without presuming to use the law as a weapon to punish and retaliate.

a reply to: Boadicea

You are not taking into account a gay person happily walks into a bakery to have a cake backed for their wedding and the baker say NO...Yes, now they know they do not serve gays...however their feelings are now hurt.

Not to mention the "no gay" signage, that's hurtful

I sure don't want to have to explain to my child why there are "no gay", "no black" etc. signs hanging up all over the place. Its a disgrace.



Bigotry should be punished.

originally posted by: veracity
a reply to: Boadicea

You are not taking into account a gay person happily walks into a bakery to have a cake backed for their wedding and the baker say NO...Yes, now they know they do not serve gays...however their feelings are now hurt.

Yes, I did -- at least in earlier comments about signage to proclaim their bigotry, thus giving the customer the heads up not to even try... and giving them the opportunity to identify and patronize those who will gladly bake them the most fanfrickentastic wedding cake ever!

Bigotry should be punished.

And it will be when customers take their business elsewhere! It can also be punished via the denial of incorporation benefits, as well as higher tax codes, etc.

I do believe that in the end, greed will win out every time. Folks will do the right thing for the money.

a reply to: Boadicea

sorry I edited the original post but the signage is very hurtful within itself.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: Annee

I'm never going to agree with your "Rolling the Dice" road to Equal Treatment.

Yeah, I got that... hence the mischaracterization of my position as basically a crap shoot, rather than acknowledging the practical, proactive and productive ways I have suggested that could accomplish the same goal without presuming to use the law as a weapon to punish and retaliate.

It is a crap shoot.

Because you can only look at your "productive" ways as coming from the Power Majority. Its their whim.

originally posted by: veracity
a reply to: Boadicea

sorry I edited the original post but the signage is very hurtful within itself.

True. But people are quite hurtful. That's just life. At least people are forewarned, and therefore forearmed, and empowered to do better.

My mind has expanded via this discussion to understand that some good can come of forcing folks to act different, even if they don't feel different. But as it progresses, it obviously comes back to punishment again and again and again. Not about giving everyone the best access and availability to goods and services.

I'm all about the latter... not the former. Such power can and will be abused -- to everyone's detriment.

ETA: Maybe this will help you understand my perspective, and I don't expect it to make you all of a sudden agree with me, but just to expand on the principle. When my kids were actually kids, especially as teenagers, I would often tell them, "You have every right to be just as big an (fill in the blank) as you choose to be. And others have every right to react accordingly." Today, most people think my kids are pretty darn awesome, because they treat others with the respect and courtesy everyone deserves. They do it because they want to be awesome -- not because anyone forced them to pretend to be. I think we can all rise to that level given the opportunity and a reason to be awesome simply for awesomeness' sake.

a reply to: Boadicea
You really can't see it, can you?

That it is the individuals that believed everyone should be treated with respect and equal treatment - - that fought for these "forced" laws of equality.

It is the bullies who don't respect others or believe they should have equal treatment that fight these laws.

Its like you're saying one thing - - - then standing on the other side.

a reply to: Boadicea

The signs would be atrocious, I do not want to go back. I do not want to explain to my child all of the hatred.

Discrimination against civil rights should be outlawed.

The bigots still have a choice...to open up a business to the public or to not.

It seems as if you cannot understand why people fight for civil rights, its very important.

If you were discriminated against, I think you would better understand.

originally posted by: Annee
a reply to: Boadicea
You really can't see it, can you?

Oh dear. Okay.

That it is the individuals that believed everyone should be treated with respect and equal treatment - - that enacted these "forced" laws of equality.

You really can't see it, can you? That it is the individuals who claim everyone should be treated with respect and equal treatment -- that enacted these "forced" laws of quality -- that have no respect for anyone's opinion but their own, and will force their will on others via forced involuntary servitude under color of law and the point of a gun, with zero consideration for the clear and gross violations of natural, organic and Constitutional law, and no thought to how such power and precedent can and will be abused.

It is the bullies who don't respect others or believe they should have equal treatment that fight these laws.

It is the bullies who don't respect the natural, organic and Constitutional rights to free will, free association, and freedom of conscience who demand these laws, forcing their will on others at the point of a gun under color of law, believing that might makes right.

Its like you're saying one thing - - - then standing on the other side.

It's like you're saying one thing -- then doing another.

a reply to: veracity

I respect your concerns, and I appreciate your support for the underdog... but we'll probably never agree on the use of force/punishment to force anyone to think or act in a certain way.

But I'm hoping it's not too much for me to presume that you would support those ideas I've advocated as well -- albeit in conjunction with your other views. It's at least another cornerstone to build from. That's a good thing!

a reply to: Boadicea

I like the idea of calling out bigots with a sign, however, it would never work.

the signs would become norm and they are atrocious.

Surely you don't want to go backwards, right?

originally posted by: veracity
a reply to: Boadicea

I like the idea of calling out bigots with a sign, however, it would never work.

the signs would become norm and they are atrocious.

Surely you don't want to go backwards, right?

I've always liked naming and shaming -- if people are gonna do it, let 'em own it! I can see your point in that it can be hurtful for people, but it shouldn't be, because it says everything about the bigot and nothing about anyone else. We can't let others define us!!!

But I will think about it and maybe I can think up another approach that would not put people in that position...

originally posted by: Boadicea

originally posted by: veracity
a reply to: Boadicea

I like the idea of calling out bigots with a sign, however, it would never work.

the signs would become norm and they are atrocious.

Surely you don't want to go backwards, right?

I've always liked naming and shaming

We should bring back Stocks in the public square.

Then we can have people throw rotten vegetables at them to shame them.

Then we can let people decide for themselves if they're gonna pick up the mess.

a reply to: Boadicea

I don't think we are mature enough as a society for the signage idea to work. Also its very hurtful.

I can see some idiots being proud of their signs, and others starting fights over signs.

Of course to insightful people like us...it shames them, but to society as a whole...just a disaster.

a reply to: Boadicea

In time, I expect to see businesses adopt a symbol or phrase to let the public know they are "gay friendly,"

I just now saw your great thread here......
sorry to be late.

Someone may have already suggested it, but a simple rainbow decal would do the trick!



LOL!! Hadn't read past the OP.....

yes, Gus, amore......you already did.....

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

that wouldn't work, biz owners do not want to scare away Christians, their money is just as green.

How about the Christian bakers put a cross in their window...but then the cross will have the connotation of "no gays allowed"

see, nothing works put to enforce civil rights.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I just now saw your great thread here......
sorry to be late.

No worries -- better late than never!

Someone may have already suggested it, but a simple rainbow decal would do the trick!

Yes, someone did, but it's worth saying again... and again. I'd like that. I like rainbows! When we bought our house twenty-some years ago, it had a rainbow sticker in the window -- it's still there. Faded now, but I liked it then and still do

a reply to: Boadicea

It's a great way for small businesses to promote their services, as well as to fill a niche market that needs filling. Everyone wins!

And likely to run the "no-way" businesses out of business.
Everyone despises Ted Cruz who knows him and has to work with him (apparently even one of his finger-flicking daughters feels the same!).....
these companies will become the "niche" businesses. "Evangelicals only" stores. While the vast majority open their door-arms and welcome the spenders inside.


LOLOL!!!!!!