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Utah gay wedding expo connects couples, friendly businesses

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posted on Mar, 8 2016 @ 11:18 AM
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a reply to: Annee


You are not everybody.


Obviously.


Why would you think others think like you?


I don't... hence the question about "others." If I thought I was "everybody" or that "everybody" thought like me I never would have even thought of the question, much less asked it.


I know for a fact they don't.


Obviously.

And I have my answer... not one I was hoping for, but so be it.




posted on Mar, 8 2016 @ 11:19 AM
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originally posted by: veracity
a reply to: Annee

and then their changed perceptions im sure trickled down to the next generations. I know this country is much better than it was 40 years ago, I do NOT want to go back.



Yes, absolutely!

Forced change has made a difference.

I know because I lived through it.
edit on 8-3-2016 by Annee because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 8 2016 @ 11:28 AM
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originally posted by: veracity
a reply to: Boadicea

sorry can I just input...


Of course!


the law will most likely NOT change their hearts, so sad, but it should definitely change their actions, at least it will make it more bearable for others if they are not spreading their hate in public.


Thank you. Good point. I do see the virtue in your words.

As this discussion has continued, it has occurred to me that perhaps such laws could serve a positive and proactive purpose, in that folks who have self-segregated from others, who now decide to observe and respect the law (rather than closing up shop), and are therefore exposed to those they previously self-segregated from, could and would learn that whatever things they previously believed were wrong. And in that way, their hearts and minds could and would be changed.

I would still prefer to use honey rather than vinegar; but this is something for me to ponder...

ETA: a reply to: Annee

I just realized this responds to your comment as well, so I wanted to include you.
edit on 8-3-2016 by Boadicea because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 8 2016 @ 11:45 AM
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a reply to: Boadicea

I am glad that you have broadened your horizons and believe that forcing legal rights is necessary.



posted on Mar, 8 2016 @ 11:52 AM
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a reply to: veracity

Don't give me too much credit! I'm still not sure forcing anything is necessary or proper or the best way... I still worry about the negative consequences of allowing anyone to force their will on others.

But whereas previously I could not see any virtue in doing so, now I do.

I suppose the question I have to ask myself -- and ultimately answer -- is if the virtue outweighs the vice.



posted on Mar, 8 2016 @ 12:00 PM
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a reply to: Boadicea
The way I see it... Forcing people to be nicer can only be a good thing.



posted on Mar, 8 2016 @ 12:09 PM
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originally posted by: veracity
a reply to: Boadicea
The way I see it... Forcing people to be nicer can only be a good thing.


I have to take care of some things, but I might have some questions for you when I get back! Depends on where my musings take me...



posted on Mar, 8 2016 @ 12:49 PM
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a reply to: Boadicea

sure, no prob, im on and off here all day



posted on Mar, 8 2016 @ 02:33 PM
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originally posted by: veracity
a reply to: Boadicea
The way I see it... Forcing people to be nicer can only be a good thing.



That has been my experience. I have had other views but, in my many years, I've found forcing people to be nice works.

I was raised in metaphysics (and Christianity). Its a bit unusual for someone my age to have been raised with metaphysical thinking (also karma, empathic energies, etc, but I was).

So, I am aware of the "organically" being nice and accepting of others, etc, etc.

The thing is, we are still animals, and still play "King of the Mountain" (survival of the fittest).

The predominant group is not going to give up power with a smile and a hug. Just not going to happen.

In the US, the predominant group would be White Christian Hetero Male (even though there are more females then males). NOT speaking of individuals, so lets not go there.

So, then all the factions of non-predominant groups say: "Hey! Who put you in charge?"



posted on Mar, 8 2016 @ 03:40 PM
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I really do enjoy throwing you guys a bone and then leaving for awhile.
You all just rip right into it and tear everything apart,makes reading
your post replies more entertaining and frightening.
edit on 8-3-2016 by mamabeth because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 8 2016 @ 05:00 PM
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originally posted by: Annee

Many LGBT targeted businesses have closed these last few years. Why? Because they are no longer needed.

Or perhaps they were never needed to begin with?



posted on Mar, 8 2016 @ 05:50 PM
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originally posted by: Bone75

originally posted by: Annee

Many LGBT targeted businesses have closed these last few years. Why? Because they are no longer needed.

Or perhaps they were never needed to begin with?


Persecuted, unaccepted, minority group forced to live on the fringes of society and develop their own culture.

Yeah, I'd say there was a need.

But, as LGBT become more accepted by general society - - - the need diminishes.



posted on Mar, 9 2016 @ 07:56 AM
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originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: namelesss


Perhaps as people learn to Love, such 'ethics/Virtues' will grow naturally, from within.


Unfortunately, we cannot force people to love. I wish we could. The world would sure be a nicer place to live for all of us.


But until then, I'll be damned if I want to live somewhere where every low IQ ignorant bigot can determine for himself whether to serve me in a store based on his discrimination of my color, or mustache, or whatever is going through his tiny bigoted 'mind' at the moment that I just need to pick up a quart of milk and some bread!


Wouldn't you rather spend your dollars at a business that doesn't discriminate against your mustache? If you had a choice between spending your dollars at a business that welcomes everyone and their mustaches or a business that discriminates against you and your mustache, wouldn't you prefer to spend your dollars at the one that doesn't discriminate? Maybe even rub it in a little and wave your dollars at the other guy as you entered your business of choice?

That might be fine if I could just walk across the street, maybe, but what if I have to go drive to another state, lose a day's work, etc... etc... just because some damned bigot won't serve me because I have a mustache!
What next, 'beards'?

Remember that old;
"When they came for the Jews, I didn't stand up. I'm not a Jew!
When they came for the Xtians, I didn't stand up. I'm not a Xtian!
Now they come for me, and there isn't anyone to stand up for me!"
... comes to mind.
Make em serve it if they are to be open to public, gaining public benefits of public taxes...
Make 'em not spit on it or they will suffer!
Make them put wholesome ingredients, even if it costs a bit more...
Laws are for those with no ethics!


I think we could just as easily reward businesses that choose not to discriminate out of their own free will, rather than punish, using the tax code or incorporation laws or something else, and achieve the pretty much the same results.

Two stores side by side serving the same lunch.
One serving because they 'have to', other because they 'want to'.
Business will naturally seek it's own level.
The haters will dry up and blow away, but that is one less hate infection in town.

Or, like they say, smiling makes you feel better, even if you were feeling crappy!
It's a chemical thing (also)!

Perhaps being 'forced' to know those whom you hate so easily at a distance, will aid in your inner growth?
I have found that, consistently, the closer that you get to know someone, the less you can hate them and the more that you Love them!
I think it was Sun Tsu or Musashi who said that "strategically, the moment when you are most able to destroy your enemy, you find that at that moment, that you Love him!

You can't legislate 'good feelings', but you can damn well legislate 'smiles'! *__-




edit on 9-3-2016 by namelesss because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 9 2016 @ 08:17 AM
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a reply to: namelesss


You can't legislate 'good feelings', but you can damn well legislate 'smiles'! *__-


That^^ made me smile -- thank you!

If I thought forcing good behavior would work, and not just come around to bite us all in the arse later, I would probably agree. But three natural laws come to mind:

1 -- Murphy's Law: What can go wrong will go wrong.
2 -- Unintended Consequences
3 -- Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely

The saddest part to me is that I think will greed and avarice will win the day if we use a carrot rather than a stick.

For example, require a clause within all incorporation charters that the corporation must not discriminate. If the company is going to reap special benefits from the taxpayers, then they must serve the public equally just like the government.

Another example, companies -- incorporated or not -- who choose to operate without discrimination and serve the public equally receives a lower tax rate than those who choose to discriminate,,, and those companies who choose to discriminate must name and shame themselves. Let them put up their signs and proudly proclaim who they will not serve. Even if I did not fit any of their targets, I still wouldn't shop there. If they're going to treat some people badly, why would I expect them to treat me better? I wouldn't.

One more example, if a town is lacking markets/services, use grants and small business loans to fund that market/service, again with the stipulation that the new business will serve the public equally.

If we want to encourage and promote non discrimination, then our actions must actually promote the end result.

Allowing the government to punish those who refuse to serve involuntarily just opens the door for more involuntary servitude and more punishment by government -- and where it leads, no one knows. They just need the precedent.



posted on Mar, 9 2016 @ 09:00 AM
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a reply to: Boadicea

I kinda like those ideas, however, I can see how it would not work. This would cause sharp segretations and hostility. (not to mention the bigot stores would go out of business)

Also, I feel a strong sense of justice when a bigot has to pay a fine for being mean. The laws of Karma are much more harsh.


edit on 9-3-2016 by veracity because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 9 2016 @ 09:35 AM
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originally posted by: veracity
a reply to: Boadicea

I kinda like those ideas, however, I can see how it would not work.


Yeah, nothing is perfect...


This would cause sharp segretations and hostility. (not to mention the bigot stores would go out of business)


I can live with that! In fact, I would find it poetic justice.


Also, I feel a strong sense of justice when a bigot has to pay a fine for being mean. The laws of Karma are much more harsh.


Except that then the bigots could blame government -- and not their own shoddy business practices. If they go out of business because no one will patronize their store, that's karma!

I'm working on another response for you with examples of how the "force/penalty" model approach could be used against us, but I admit I've gotten distracted



posted on Mar, 9 2016 @ 09:40 AM
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originally posted by: Boadicea
Utah gay wedding expo connects couples, friendly businesses


Jason Langlois and Will Bladh are in the early stages of making plans for their summer 2017 wedding, and they don't want their excitement pierced by the pain of being rejected by a venue, florist and photographer who have a legal right in Utah to refuse to serve a gay couple.

That's why they joined several hundred people Sunday at a gay and lesbian wedding expo in Salt Lake City aimed at connecting couples with businesses who want to make it known they're open to doing same-sex weddings.

"We don't have to worry about, 'Will they or won't they,'" said Langlois. "It's a group of businesses that are LGBT friendly."


This^^^ is how it's done in a free market economy in a free country... or at least how it should be done. Bravo!!!

There is no virtue in forcing anyone to serve others in any way or for any reason. None. Zilch. Nada. Zero. No good can come of it. Even those who seemingly benefit from forced servitude are selling themselves short and receiving -- at best -- mediocre service.

But this benefits and rewards all involved -- the merchants who are happy to provide their services, and will give their absolute best to the effort, as well as the fortunate receipients who receive the best service for their hard-earned dollars. Win-win!

And those who choose not to? So be it. As long as the government is not using color of law to prohibit people from offering their services to others (and/or prohibit gay unions altogether) in the private market, it's far better to reward "good behavior" -- which incentivizes others to do the same -- than to punish "bad behavior" -- which only creates more resentment and hatred and paves the path for ever more government intrusion into our private lives and the systemic violation of our inalienable natural rights.

In time, I expect to see businesses adopt a symbol or phrase to let the public know they are "gay friendly," and the shopping public can easily choose to spend their dollars accordingly. And not just the gay shopping community. Gay people have friends and loved ones too who do not want to patronize (and reward) businesses that discriminate... if you don't want to bake a cake for their loved one's gay wedding, they may decide they don't want you to bake a cake for their mother's birthday either.

The free market works -- when we let it.



100% agreed. Well done.

It's refreshing to see an 'adult' take note, take action and show the rest of those who continue on in the threatening, crybaby, hypocritical ways many have taken on.

I support this. I really do. Bravo - use the free market, just as many have been saying. Thank you!



posted on Mar, 9 2016 @ 09:56 AM
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a reply to: BlackboxInquiry

Thank you! Both for the kind words, and for supporting free will and free market principles!

I truly believe we can be proactive and take positive actions that truly promote the goals we wish to achieve -- just like this -- without using precious resources to coerce/punish anyone.



posted on Mar, 9 2016 @ 10:59 AM
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a reply to: Boadicea

I guess what you have to take into consideration is the hurt felt by those who are discriminated against. They are having their rights trampled on. By doing nothing...they are hurt even more.

That is why it is a must to force people to respect civil rights. Its a good thing to do anyway.



posted on Mar, 9 2016 @ 11:08 AM
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originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: BlackboxInquiry

Thank you! Both for the kind words, and for supporting free will and free market principles!

I truly believe we can be proactive and take positive actions that truly promote the goals we wish to achieve -- just like this -- without using precious resources to coerce/punish anyone.


Idealism is a nice word. Not much else. It's not reality.

I doubt many, who in real life experienced suffering from prejudice, abuse, and discrimination, would agree with you.

As said, there's REAL and then there's IDEALISM. There's also BELIEF and REALITY.

Forcing nice, kindness, accepting works. I've experienced it in my lifetime.

I'm never going to agree with your "Rolling the Dice" road to Equal Treatment.




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