I'm a realist and sadly here is why men and women will never be equal.

a reply to: MOMof3

I never said women couldn't do the same job as men, nor do I think they should be paid differently.

I just believe that we will never be equal because the female can have babies and the male cannot.

All joking aside, I really don't hate men. I love my husband, I love my Dad, I sort of love my brother (just kidding).

I've just seen so many different types of women and so many different types of men, that I have learned not to stereotype.

I've seen couples where the woman was subservient to the man, and I've seen plenty of couples where the man was subservient to the woman.

I've seen couples where the woman was the soft, stay-at-home mom type, and I've seen childless women with bigger cojones than any man.

I had a male friend once who was a super hunk. He got pulled over by a female cop once, and not only did she not give him a ticket, but she asked him out. So, it goes both ways.

The women's rights movement started because it was believed that a woman couldn't run a company, she didn't have the intelligence to vote in important elections, and she wasn't given much choices in life other than to stay at home and cook and clean and raise the kids. Now we know that a woman CAN run a company, she DOES have the intelligence to vote, and she SHOULD have other options as to what to do with her life.

We've come a long way baby!

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: MOMof3

I never said women couldn't do the same job as men, nor do I think they should be paid differently.

I just believe that we will never be equal because the female can have babies and the male cannot.

Artificial wombs are close to becoming a reality.

a reply to: paraphi

I used to do research on pay. In the UK male nurses are a small minority of the nursing population, but at the top they are disproportionation represented. Why? Well, the reason is that female nurses have babies and this breaks their careers. A male nurse of the same age has e.g. 30 years experience against (say) 20 years for a female. The more experienced nurses get the top jobs and this means they get paid more.

This is a generalisation, but applies to all professions, although at comparable experience points women and men are paid the same - at least where I am.

really enjoyed your input it was the type of response I was looking for, aside from the fact the quoted above supports my hypothesis.

Im a guy
I cook, I wash, I clean - I work part time and pick my children from school. My partner makes more per hour than I do so the structure makes sense. She worked until two days before our youngest son was born and choose not to take her full maternity leave.

At the weekends we go to the gym together, we are both power lifters and my lady has personal best totals only a couple of pounds less than my own.

I have told you all this for a single reason, I believe that the op is spouting neolithic nonsense about gender inequality.

Women have a higher pain threshold
A higher stress threshold
Physically, women can be as strong or stronger than men
And they adapt to emotional crises faster than men

Yes women and men are different and thank god (you choose which one)

originally posted by: Klassified
a reply to: frostie
I could probably post an essay on this topic, but it would be to no avail. So, I'll just say this...

Any man who thinks he's superior to the female of his species isn't very astute, to say the least, and has much to learn. Unfortunately, most men never will.

Beginning of OP

quality of the genders would be such a pleasant thing, if it was possible. I have nothing against women or equality, frankly I'm all for it. The sad truth is that its just not realistic, at least not anytime soon.

I will provide an argument for my stance that will consist of many real world examples, most of them I have witnessed over time. The following focuses on the work environment, which is a good place to start.

Several factors will never allow it, for example:

Biology and Genetics, Society and Gender Roles

I'm not stating im above women, and no one is. I just want to use logic and reason to identify why women will never be equal. I know it sounds bad, but well I just wanna be real.

originally posted by: frostie


I dont recall stating that it will lower a womens IQ, just possibly make her behind in her career path.

I was in sales where your experience counted less than your results to targets!!

a reply to: frostie

I think it is unfortunate that people think equal means "conforming". Equal implies equal rights, and equality is about equal rights. The ruling class is supposed to have the same rights as the working class, but that is not the way it is unfortunately.

a reply to: errorcode

Wow, im jealous of your gym couple relationship. That sounds like a lot of fun.

So your gender roles have kinda flip flopped? Thats cool, as im sure all the important stuff still gets done.

I have told you all this for a single reason, I believe that the op is spouting neolithic nonsense about gender inequality.

Women have a higher pain threshold
A higher stress threshold
Physically, women can be as strong or stronger than men
And they adapt to emotional crises faster than men

Agree with all you mentioned, well maybe not the whole im spouting nonsense thing. I understand that women are just as capable as men. This is not the issue we are discussing.

Its a matter of social structure and why it is in place.

a reply to: eletheia

Nobody is being targeted, and my scenario 1 was not an experience...

The problem here -- as I see it -- is trying to ascribe value to different variables. Are we valuing a person's worth purely on their physical strength? Are we valuing a person's worth purely on their ability to take pure pain? How about on their ability to work with others within a system.

See, all of these things tend to paint with a big brush without saying so, presuming that ALL men are physically stronger than ALL women, and ignoring what is truly important: That both genders are invaluable in creating a total system that supports the progression of humanity. Both are invaluable in creating more humans, and their separate 'roles' in doing so are -- in these times -- chosen for the most part, and involve a negotiation, in a perfect world. Sexuality and gender preference also play a part, because all facets of humanity contribute toward the whole, due to the changing fabric of what makes the world function. To try to cubbyhole every person into a predetermined role is to limit the growth of the human potential. Diversity and growth and knowledge is what will lead humanity toward a kinder and more supportive evolution.

Are men and women equal? Give me a yardstick that takes into account all the variables -- how each facet of the genders affects the human whole, and I will tell you that the obvious conclusion is that they are absolutely equal and necessary. Are they both compensated financially for equal contribution? Well, hardly ever. That is, imo, the primary thing we as a species should work on to correct. Let's put it in a more simple manner: If two people of both genders undergo the same education and experience and are vying for the same position, both should share equal consideration and garner equal pay.

Will men ever be able to bear the pain and grief of life as well as women? Well, some of that may be genetic. Some of that may be begging the question, however I don't believe it will ever be so, until we are socialized differently as children than we are now.

A woman can have a baby, and go back to work the next day

A woman (as can a man) accrue vacation time, take a week off then go back to work.

If there are complications, most likely the man will miss work to be with his wife/baby.

Maternity leave is a CHOICE. Also not gender specific. The mother can go back to work the next day and the father choose to stay home with the baby.

I think you need to modernize your data.

a reply to: frostie

That's a few good stereotypes you got going
Good Work!

In all seriousness parenting a baby properly takes a lot of time out of both parents lives, considering a baby needs constant attention and monitoring it's no surprise that it should affect both parents and usually other family members too. Ever noticed just how much support is usually pooled around a baby? The old cop out of "the man has to work" is gone now and it was a cop out... parenting isn't easy. It disrupts the patterns of both parents and it's becoming more common for female parents getting back into work a lot sooner as society learns to share it's burdens and tolls.

You're stereotypical situation regarding manual labour is actually a bit of a problem in the real world and is somewhat true I'll admit. At the end of the day if I was Billy and Mandy's boss I'd associate them tasks based on their ability to do them. Mandy might not have the physical prowess of a athlete but Billy can't wash dishes to save his life. At the end of the day in an ideal world both would perform each task equally as admirable and in doing so would not arouse the suspicion of being sexist or doing something against the norm.

In all honesty stereotyping works both ways, people use it to get out of situations as much as they use it to place others into situations. You can't ask people to be free and equal while you pour them into molds... Funny how that works.

originally posted by: Annee
A woman can have a baby, and go back to work the next day

A woman (as can a man) accrue vacation time, take a week off then go back to work.

If there are complications, most likely the man will miss work to be with his wife/baby.

Maternity leave is a CHOICE. Also not gender specific. The mother can go back to work the next day and the father choose to stay home with the baby.

I think you need to modernize your data.

Sure, everything you stated was correct.

In todays social setting I do not see a woman who has just given birth to her child choose not to take a few immediate weeks of.

Again, this is due to social structure and the genetics in women.

Its just the way most things are, for most people.

a reply to: Annee

Yep, my husband's male cousin took 12 weeks of paternity leave to take care of their newborn. His wife took 1 week of vacation for the birth, then went back to work.

When I worked and my daughter would get sick, my husband and I took turns staying home to take care of her. So in that respect, neither one of us took off more time than the other.

ETA: Oh yeah, I also knew another couple who split up their leave. The wife took 6 weeks maternity leave, then the husband took 6 weeks paternity leave. Split it right down the middle.

a reply to: RAY1990

You're stereotypical situation regarding manual labour is actually a bit of a problem in the real world and is somewhat true I'll admit. At the end of the day if I was Billy and Mandy's boss I'd associate them tasks based on their ability to do them.

Billy and Mandy's scenario was not the one about Manual labor. That was scenerio 2: describing my personal experiances.

Although I liked what you had to say, especially from the aspect of the Boss

a reply to: frostie

And what if the other employee was also a male? Who would take out the trash and who would wash the dishes?

a reply to: kaylaluv

I'd end up doing both

originally posted by: MOMof3
Did you know they can make sperm from stem cells now? Just food for thought.

Yep. I think our species has a planned obsolescence built into half of it.

If you have one half of humanity ruled by a hormone that makes you aggressive and the other half is ruled by a hormone that does not, which half do you think will be phased out when trying to fix a world plagued by violence and aggressive control?

originally posted by: frostie

originally posted by: Annee
A woman can have a baby, and go back to work the next day

A woman (as can a man) accrue vacation time, take a week off then go back to work.

If there are complications, most likely the man will miss work to be with his wife/baby.

Maternity leave is a CHOICE. Also not gender specific. The mother can go back to work the next day and the father choose to stay home with the baby.

I think you need to modernize your data.

In todays social setting I do not see a woman who has just given birth to her child choose not to take a few immediate weeks of.

As you yourself state: CHOICE.