originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: 2012newstart
Won't happen and it Russia attempted it they would be destroyed.
Russia cannot just be "destroyed" without destruction of USA and West in general. First, for that you need thousands of nukes that USA doesn't have
anymore. You have a territory 3 times the territory of USA, cities spread among wilderness. Also you have to count China if USA is to make a first
strike. Permieter automatic system of retaliation is being modernized, said a general. Moreover, it is yet not clear the extend of the underground
facilities in places one can hardly believe the life is possible at all. Watch RT of Norilsk underground "mining city". And that is just official
part. As of the 5000 new bunkers built in Moscow around 2012, again on RT.
On the other hand, the West is pretty vulnerable. Paul Craig Roberts who worked in Reagan's economic team and even made "Reaganomy" term, now says
repeatedly online: "we risk too much with all the new tech at the Russian borders. Because only one SS18 to successfully reach the East Coast,
anywhere on it, will depopulate it entirely (in the meaning, the survivors will relocate from the irradiated territory)." Without the East (and the
West) coasts, USA will turn into a third world country. You can imagine the effects of EMPs from space, and so on. Let alone West Europe that is
completely defenseless. Many Western countries will refuse to fight in first place, such as Italy and France, and Spain, and Greece, to name a few.
If a big doom occurs, the life of survivors will be underground for the duration of the nuclear winter. Guess how many nations have that option and
how many nations will want to go on a road that leads to that ultimate end. Some within USA may want indeed to sacrifice everything only after
generations to be able to prove that Russia started first and is the evil empire, as Reagan said. But not so many of them think in that way, I hope
Saying all that about the big doom scenario that may never happen, we'd rather sit down to discuss the local scenarios. Russia already made enough
concessions to the West, including by letting NATO move not only to the ex-Soviet Block of nations (East Europe) but also within the ex-USSR itself.
There should be a red line that seems already reached. I will not comment all the situation in Ukraine, it is dynamic.
In the case of Turkey, we have 10-15 Russo-Ottoman wars in 18-19 century that mostly were won by Russia, except for the Crimean war where we had a
coalition of Anglo-French forces to help Turkey out.
Whether Turkey will make another gross provocation as the downing jet (you do that if you are at hostile relations with some country, not if you
import gas thru pipes under Black Sea!!!) Russia already said what will be the response. If this is a Think Tank center and not necessarily official,
the officials already said enough words as "stabbing in the back", (Putin). Medvedev went further to say there were discussions and right of military
response, but they decided not to do it anyway. UN charter gives the right of self defense of every country, Russia included.
Recently a Russian jet passed briefly over Israeli controlled territory (they move with supersonic speed and the border is not straight line). Israeli
source said, there was nothing dangerous or any need to shoot it down.
So much of the Turkish right to shoot down a plane of a country considered to be "friendly". That plane wasn't there to bomb Turkey, neither Turkey
and Russia had any provocations beforehand, any hostilities. It was a sharp turn of Erdogan against a traditional friend if not ally, Putin, despite
all economic favors Putin did to a country that belongs to NATO. Surely it cannot be repeated without more serious reaction from Russian side.
There is such a thing as Russian public opinion. Putin would be obliged to act. And he does not act alone. There is the powerful defense minister
Shoigu, there is the all-logic Lavrov, there are the leaders of the other political parties: Zyuganov (communists), Zhirinovski (nationalists),
Mironov (kind of right-wing socialists). I remember after Kiev how Putin was put to immense pressure by all politicians of all the spectrum in the
parliament to act militarily in Ukraine. One may say, Putin still withholds powers in Russia that would be much more assertive towards the West.
About NWO, well that could be discussed endlessly. The fact is Russia under Putin played quite constructive role for the last 16 years. May be too
constructive. And the world didn't go towards the promised paradise of before Year 2000, instead marred deeply in economic woes, unemployment, and
also terrorists. I don't have the answer, or if I have it I said it in other threads. All powers have off-world partners and that should not be a
secret to anyone anymore. Perhaps the big war is postponed if not cancelled because of that. I can't imagine the uneasy status quo of the last decade
to be just repeated one decade more. People will riot in a number of Western countries, as they did in London, Madrid, and do now against immigrants.
If there is such a thing as NWO and illuminati control, they have to take into account today's people are much more aware, including of that. There is
some invisible red line beyond which the "normal" societies of the West will go wild. Again, I do not have an answer, except for intervention of a new
kind, new industrial revolution, that will give everyone regardless of the country, the means of survival and well being, cures of deseases that are
theoretically curable but unaffordable for 95% of the Western population. Creation of affordable conditions in the Third World, to stop the insane
immigration streams that overflow Europe and USA and that will make those regions no more "Western culture" only 10 years later. What will happen if
China and India send tomorrow several hundred million "tourists" half of whom decide to stay. It will be the end of the civilization the way we know
it. Without giving a shot.
Let go back to the straights. Constantinople has been Ottoman-Turkish for the last 600 years. But not before that. As we know it is one of the oldest
cities in history dating to the time of Constantine. For good or for bad, it is a part of our common Mediterranean/later European history. Ottomans
entered into it and remained into it for too long to be considered a factor. But one of the factors only, not the ultimate one. I have nothing against
Turkey's population, culture, religion, and so on. They showed they could be civilized many times in history, unlike other Muslim countries.
If there is another provocation, Russia will seek its right of defense and will go beyond destroying one airfield. Turkey is posed for a war. I heard
it somewhere that Erdogan said he would invade Russia for 7 days. (Israeli source I think). Well that is pretty crazy. Does he count on the 80 nukes
in the US control in Incirlic base? Even though does he realize what it means a war with a nuclear superpower, with unknown number of secret weapons?
Turkey will be defeated in weeks. The straights are the first point of interest of course. NATO intervention? What do you mean - Poland striking
Russia in the back? I can't believe it. US if they want a big doom, they have to strike both Russia and China, as already talked.
16-1-2016 by 2012newstart because: (no reason given)