WAR: FBI Charges Laser Suspect Under Patriot Act: Despite Acknowledging Not A Terrorist Act

Something more valid and believable should have gone down as the first casualty under the Patriot Act, IMO

Marg, it is hard to swallow, isnt it.

Where is the evidence, anyway? None? Just the government saying this, as usual and some believe it.

Tell me about it DG, I guess the administrations has to start upholding their patriot act new laws so when the time comes to applied to every body people will be more used to it.

And let the NWO regime begin the administration can not wait for the inaguration it has to start now.

I really can't believe people think this idiot should be charged under the PA. What are you people smoking and where can I get some He should be charged, yes I agree but as a Terrorist? Come on.. Endangering Public Air Safety(or whatever its called) and Criminal Mischief should be the Charges, and Who fired the laser anyway, Him or his Kids? This case really bothers me, as I fear this sort of thing could start happening up here in Canada as well(we have a PA equivalent as well...)

The two people shouting the loudest about the Patriot Act have probably never read it. But that's ok.

In any event, should it be considered terrorism? No. Should it be considered an act that could have resulted in the sabotage of a Mass Transportation Vehicle? Yes.

If you think the arrest of some jerk in jersey is the beginning of the end of the world, good luck to you. I hope you don't go on planes very often considering how much you defend people's rights to create unsafe conditions for the pilots. What's next? Nothing wrong with strapping things to the flaps or shooting pebbles at the windows? These are the kinds of people who found it "amusing" to drop a penny off the empire state building.

It's all in good fun when you have no reason to pay attention to the danger presented. Especially since the danger doesn't fit into your all encompassing political agendas.

Admit it and save yourself the slightest shred of dignity, the man is a jerk and deserves to be in trouble for a dangerous act.

Originally posted by Djarums
Admit it and save yourself the slightest shred of dignity, the man is a jerk and deserves to be in trouble for a dangerous act.

I don't think anybody is doubting that this ass should serve some serious time. However, the real debate is should the Federal government can and should use the Patriot Act for anything they feel they can.

Some of you seem to be confusing the crimes now elevated and covered by the patriot act with acts of terror.

While the Patriot Act was designed as a tool to combat terrorism, the crimes committed under it may not be terrorism related, yet still be a "patriot act offence". Big Deal. Interfearing with the operator of a mass transit vehicle is a patriot act offence...yet it may not have been part of a terror plot...SO WHAT? Drunk drivers done intend to kill someone, yet when they do its vehicular homicide, not just drunk driving. Intent isnt the issue, which law is applicable IS.

Im amazed that with so many "law and order" type shows being soo popular here in the states that soo many of you have no apparent clue as to how investigating agencies, jurisdictional issues, and prosecutors approach a criminal case. Im not saying they are "reality", but these programs pay actual criminologists to make the shows as accurate as possible, which will give a broad, yet decently accurate idea of how the system works, yet many of you still are gonna cry foul and spread false fear. OF COURSE THE MAXIMUM OFFENCE is going to be alleged, it almost always is by ANY law enforcment agency!!! Just because a person is charged with the max offence doesnt mean it will stick or that the charges wont be plea bargained or reduced thru lack of evidence or other reasons.

Why am i not suprised at this lack of understanding is evident when the article clearly states it was an industrial strenght laser used, not some keychain/business type of pointer.
Yet again the reality is brushed over because you cant comprehend what is being said thru the goggles of fear your wearing. No over-hyping here eh?
Mistating the facts i believe, is a lie just as much as telling the feds, my daughter did it. (before changing your tune)

While a poster was agreeing with the idea of common sense on this case and use of the law...a little basic science always helps too

Light is fully capable of travelling at angles other than straight up is it not?

Im not sure what this said, but i read it as light can go around corners or bend itself...light travels in a straight line always, unless it it reflected off, or bent into a new angle by somthing acting upon it, like hitting a pane of thick glass or very strong electromagnetic field.

Stupidity (unless medically shown to be a retard) and or ignorance of the law does not negate/excuse the law being violated.
The attempts to try and extrapolate the actual violation of a patriot act situation with hyped up theories of its misuse seems like desperate, grasping at straws, and wishful thinking.

This case wont even come close to being able to be used in the aleged slippery slope argument that will "get" the patriot act with...

But it is fun and amusing to watch people posting to and fro yelling
"the sky is falling!".

The specs in this link states its a class IIIa laser.
Class IIIa lasers can not blind unless the person getting an eyeful doesn't avert and look away like people normally do when they are looking at something bright.
www.thinkgeek.com...

Yes, its green 5mW pointer, but it is just as powerful as a 5mW RED pointer, your eyes are more sensetive to the green beam. The green beam does not burn the retinas faster then a red one at the same power.

The "energy(joules)" being "brighter" then the sun is WRONG! Saying energy and brightness are related is like saying horse power (wattage) is the same thing as torque (ft-lb).
I think that girls claim (retina damage) is false. At more then 1000ft away, a 5mW laser beam spreads out to at least 2" and you have 5mW spread out over 2" and the 6-7mm iris, so you have an even smaller amount of power entering the eye.
Offending link.
www.laserinstitute.org...

"Brightness is a psychophysiological phenomenon that cannot be measured directly. The term "photometric brightness" used to refer to luminance, but is no longer in scientific or engineering use. (Let me rephrase that: it shouldn't be!)"
Link: repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu...

Also, if you think a class 3a(IIIa) laser is permantently blinding then look at this link:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

You have too read the links, don't treat them as cool looking badges of authority, for all you know, I could be posting porn (j/k)!


(edited to add) It was not an industrial laser, those are class IV lasers, I have 3 of them, 2 Nd:yag lasers and a ruby laser and those dont fit on a key chain! The pointer he had is longer then the modern red ones but long ago the red ones were the same size as this green one, its not like it needs D cells to work.

IGNORE FACTS as needed to further this debate!


[edit on 6-1-2005 by XL5]

I think this guy should be prosicuted to the fullest extent of the law, however, using the patriot act is reaching over the bounds of ligitmacy. I fly 2-4 times a week so maybe I am more sensitvie to this subject, however I feel that bringing the patriot acti into it is just the first step to on a new level of limiting our few remaining freedoms. Time to clean your guns stock up on ammo and prepare to protect your own...the people will revolt in the not to distant future in my opinoin...

[edit on 1/6/2005 by JLStorm]

Originally posted by Djarums
Have you ever heard of glass reflecting light? Just wondering. I suppose you have decided that this entire incident was an invention of George Bush to arrest a 38 year old man in Jersey and it never happened.

I think what you are referring to is refraction of light because if you meant reflection then the light would have hit the cockpits windshield and reflected away!
I personally think this is total BS and I have flown a Cessna and I can tell you there is now way in hell he could have aimed it into the pilots eyes! First of all the cockpits window is very small and on top of that to get it into the pilots eyes is almost impossible at 3000 feet and if you consider landing at night the guy would have to have a night vision scope to just to hit the cockpit and to locate the pilots eyes you can forget about it!
I have seen that kind of laser pointer shown on the geeks
I think this is the FBI's pathetic attempt at national security, I think they want to say " See! We are keeping such a close eye that even terrorists can't do something like this!"
Yeah right! Terrorists would play with a laser in the night near an airport to down planes!!
If the FBI thought them to be such dangerous devices that they could down planes then why don't they ban the sale of such items? Because it can't down an airplane. You have gun shops in every street corner on America which sell rifles with 40-50x scopes that could seriously take out a plane on take off and landing with a good shot and they are worried about some guy with a laser pointer!! That's just ludicrous Anybody who's a good shot with a rifle can easily take a plane down on take off or landing why don't they ban the use and sale of fire arms in a 30 mile radius of an airport? Because the entire operation by the FBI shows that they are only capable of catching only these kind of morons but not real terrorists which matter the most!
IMHO they should scare the daylights of this guy and let him go- prison is uncalled for! Also maybe his kids should be monitored by the social security guys to make sure this dufuss doesn't blame his stupidity on them again.


[edit on 6-1-2005 by IAF101]

Originally posted by Djarums
Since people are too lazy to actually read about the incident due to a lack of time (maybe too much time spent on Bush/NWO connections to this laser incident), I'll do the honors.

www.nydailynews.com...

You can check that article out because it answers a lot of questions some of you brought up, primarily the above poster "damned".

Of course you're going to use the story that makes the guy look the most guilty, eh? This version is more likely, and it would be the defense I'd use if I was charged with the same "crime."

www.theaustralian.news.com.au...

If you've ever been charged with a crime, you'd know that police will take anything you say and try to make it the worst they can. They'll accuse you of lying, try to mislead you by putting words in your mouth or changing your story, and accuse you of anything else they can possibly accuse you of. What they say is most likely not what the suspect said, in most cases. It's only what they wrote in their report. And their report is always going to be worded to make you think the suspect is indeed guilty, especially if they want the charges to stick.

As stated in the article the plane was at approx 3,000 feet. As stated in the article the laser was Commercial Grade (not like your lil toy red dot shooter) used to test Fiber Optic Lines. Not shocking that it hit 3,000 feet considering that Green Lasers are offered to consumers as "novelties" which have a range of 9,000 feet in darkness. As can be seen here: www.thinkgeek.com...

Mine isn't a toy, actually. (But that's all I use it as) It's a $200 dollar pointer. It's one of the high grade ones, which will project a red dot as far as your eyesight will allow you to see it. When you lose track of the dot, it's not because it's not there. It's because you can't see that far.

It was nothing but a class 3a laser. This is the most common type of laser available in the US. Class 3a has irradiance above 25W/m^2, but power ouput is less than 5mW. These should not cause eye damage when viewed briefly ( the time it takes to blink). There are several instances where people experience after images. Damage to the eye can occur if viewed for a long time of through an optical device (ie. binoculars, telescope)

While you're at it, since we're already doing some reading why not check out the Laser Institute's own safety page at: www.laserinstitute.org...

I could care less what the laser institute says. Everyone knows that it can cause permanent damage, but most people also know that the chances of that happening are about as likely as looking at the sun. We've all done it. How many went blind?

Last time I checked, Q-Tips don't cause retinal burns. Could misusing a Q-Tip cause damage? I'm sure. But this is a device that can actually cause damage during it's normal use and should be used responsibly. Not by a man with the intellect to blame an innocent 7 year old for his idiotic conduct.

Of course, all kinds of different versions of this story are coming out . Some are, no doubt, mostly speculation. Frankly, you have no idea if he was or wasn't pointing at stars with his daughter.

They're saying he could get 25 years and fined $500K for what he probably thought was just having a little good, clean laser fun!

Sorry, but not only don't I see the seriousness in this, but it seems insanely ridiculous. It reminds me of the time I got pulled over, the cops searched my car, found a bottle of mercury (which I used for vacuum gauges I worked with), and insisted I was building a bomb.

When someone first gets one of these lasers, the first thing they want to do is see how far it'll shine, and they do experiment with them. I've done it, as, I'm sure, many people have. If someone told me I could get 25 years and a $500K fine, I would've thought they were full of it.

Originally posted by CazMedia
Why am i not suprised at this lack of understanding is evident when the article clearly states it was an industrial strenght laser used, not some keychain/business type of pointer.

Once again, I'll point out that "commercial" or "industrial" isn't accurate in the description of this laser. Class 3a is the same class they sell everywhere, including most keychain pointers.

[edit on 6-1-2005 by Damned]

what if the pilot was wearing night vision it would very easy to have been blinded.
Cockpits do not use lighting at night so they can see the instruments and if the laser refracted of the windsheild then the entire cockpit would be lit up possibly not blinding anyone but the pilots would lose there natural night vision and could miss a variety of signal form the instruments for instance a fire warning or critical failure. the fact that none of these incidents properly coincided does not elude the fact it is very possible to crash and airplane with no more then a second of bright light in the cockpit especially if it happened at the wrong time.

He is being punished for his ignorance and stupidity. I don't buy that he was just pointing at stars but he probably didn't understand the full implications of his actions. Put the idiot down for maximum sentence as an example to smarten everyone else out there up who does have a laser pointer and is thinking of pointing it at a plane. Makes perfect sense to me.
Definatly no misuse of the patriot act here other than to keep the citizens truly patriotic.

Originally posted by Magickesists
Makes perfect sense to me.
Definatly no misuse of the patriot act here other than to keep the citizens truly patriotic.

Did you forget tp put in the [sarcasm] [/sarcasm] tags on. Are you quite serious? The Patriot Act should be reserved for terrorist activites and the like. There is nothing to suggest that nything other than stuipidity was at work here.

[edit on 1/6/05 by FredT]

I do believ that in the patriot act interference with mass transportation is classified as terrorism and as previously stated by someone else here domestic terrorism and foreign terrorism are both in the patriot act as i see it they are one in the same as they both have the same result and cane equally harm people whether or not im in opposition with the views of others is not my concern i just stated my opinion.

Section 213 eliminates the prior requirement that law enforcement provide a person subject to a search warrant with contemporaneous notice of the search. The new "secret search" provision applies where the court "finds reasonable cause to believe that providing immediate notification of the execution of the warrant may have an adverse effect." Although the Administration's "Field Guidance on New Authorities Enacted in the 2001 Anti-Terrorism Legislation" states that the new authority "is primarily designed to authorize delayed notice of searches," the amendment permits seizure of any tangible property or communications where the court finds "reasonable necessity" for this seizure. The law requires that notice be given within a "reasonable period," which can be extended by the court for "good cause." "Reasonable period" is undefined, and the Administration's Field Guidance advises that this is a "flexible standard."

This significant change in the law applies to all government searches for material that "constitutes evidence of a criminal offense in violation of the laws of the United States" and is not limited to investigations of terrorist activity. Prior law authorized delayed notification of a search only under a very small number of circumstances (such as surreptitious electronic surveillance). The expansion of this extraordinary authority to all searches constitutes a radical departure from Fourth Amendment standards and could result in routine surreptitious entries by law enforcement agents.



This is what we should be scared of, the fact that with 'probable bullsh$t', they can secretly search your home , find the evidence, and then the arrest can be made.

However, this is not what occured here. He commited an offense that can fall under the Patriot Act. The Patriot Act was introduced to 'help' combat terror and other crimes against our country and citizens, it is not inclusive to only jihad terror #.....

Originally posted by Magickesists
what if the pilot was wearing night vision it would very easy to have been blinded.

That has to be the most idiotic thing I've seen in this thread yet. How many commercial airline pilots fly around with night vision goggles? What if he happened to be flying upside down? Or maybe he was hanging his head out the window?
I doubt anything can blind you wearing night vision goggles, anyway. I'm sure they have ciruitry to protect from blinding over-lighting, since any direct light source would have that effect. I'm sure someone here has worn them before and can verify this.

the fact that none of these incidents properly coincided does not elude the fact it is very possible to crash and airplane with no more then a second of bright light in the cockpit especially if it happened at the wrong time.

Says who? Again, I think you're being completely ridiculous. You don't even have a fictitious understanding of what it's like to fly a plane, do you? Frankly, a good pilot can fly a plane for quite a stretch of time with his eyes closed. There's not as much to run into up there. It's not as if you have to devote 100% attention all of the time. That's why there's such a thing as auto-pilot. Many jets will even take off and land by themselves.

He is being punished for his ignorance and stupidity. I don't buy that he was just pointing at stars but he probably didn't understand the full implications of his actions.

It doesn't matter if you buy it or not. Unless you can prove otherwise, he's still innocent of criminal intent.

Put the idiot down for maximum sentence as an example to smarten everyone else out there up who does have a laser pointer and is thinking of pointing it at a plane. Makes perfect sense to me.
Definatly no misuse of the patriot act here other than to keep the citizens truly patriotic.

Smarten, like you? You've got to be kidding!

[edit on 6-1-2005 by Damned]

If your so sure of your self why don't you go buy a pair of night vision goggles yourself and shine the laser in your eyes see what happens.
Night vision goggles amplify All light thus a high energy beam of light will have a devastating effect through nighvision even if it is the cheapest version of one.

And next time you accuse some one of knowing nothing of aircraft or anything why don't you ask there backround first. I lived on military bases for most of my life and im quite familiar with much of what is being taked about here. I have been in the cockpit of an airplane including fighter jets and night vision is occasionally used in commercial and military aircraft.

Get your facts straight before you go around accusing others of ignorance and taking shots at spelling is rather low. I'm not posting here anymore i have said the all i know and am content with that thanks for your conjecture on the subject damned.

Didn't mean to sound melodramatic or anything just don't ask me anything about this thread im not interested anymore its just lost my curiosity.

I wasn't aware that I took any spelling shots. Sorry if I was hard on you, but I can't understand how anyone can think such a seemingly innocent "crime" is deserving of such a hateful punishment. No one was killed (or even close to injured), and there was no murderous intention, period.
There are always angry people who can't wait to hate the first person who makes a mistake, and light the match under his burning stake, or sling the hanging noose over the gallows pole. I hate it when I see that type of attitude. It makes me rather angry.

But if you know so much about aircraft, you'd know that (for a pilot) they're easier to drive than a car, and for the most part, safer. I don't think my facts are crooked, really. But if someone can prove me wrong, I have no problem admitting to my errors.



[edit on 6-1-2005 by Damned]

I know i said i wasn't gonna post but here goes.
The guy could have caused a tragedy thats the point whether it was malicious, stupidness, or just plane ignorance if the guy is made an example then there will be no trgedies of similar nature in the future. If nothing is done theres the classic he'll go tell his buddy hey look at this and then it might spread and eventually there will be big problems.

Any way i do belive that the main thing is i think this is maybe one of the more responsible and well thought out actions the fbi has taken in a while.
Why wait till a problem is unmanagable hit young and hit it hard. I hope thats a good explanation
And im not a hateful person i just like to keep an open mind and think logically.

I think this isn't even an FBI issue. There's less than a slight chance in hell that a plane could be taken down with a laser pointer. The danger of this ever even happening is drastically exaggerated, and you've fallen for it.
The only reason they're concerned at all, IMO, is because they fear laser guided missiles. Since we have yet to see any of these laser guided missiles used in the US, worrying about it is utter stupidity.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go ask the neighbor if I can borrow their laser guided missile launcher.