How exactly was Jesus' crucifixion a sacrifice?

More like a debt paid in what would seem to be high cost. A gift that keeps on giving.
God incurred a huge debt (ARROGANCE) when he asked of Abraham for Isaac.
Thus Jesus... was... not... a... gift.:.!

Such arrogance can only result in forgiveness being sought. Humility is a virtue.
But loyalty is most taxing.

originally posted by: Pinocchio
More like a debt paid in what would seem to be high cost. A gift that keeps on giving.
God incurred a huge debt (ARROGANCE) when he asked of Abraham for Isaac.
Thus Jesus... was... not... a... gift.:.!

Such arrogance can only result in forgiveness being sought. Humility is a virtue.
But loyalty is most taxing.

What did I even just read? Sorry, but can you rephrase this?

originally posted by: Ghost147
a reply to: Akragon

The only thing is, he is immortal, so he didn't really die in the first place, and there was no threat what so ever that he may in fact go to hell (like there supposedly is for all of us). He already knew he was going right back to heaven, after what wouldn't even be considered a single nanosecond of his existence

You focus way to much on trying to reason this stuff out.According to the bible Jesus did this to show He had real power.He also did it to save man kind from their sin.Jesus did this so mankind can walk in His footprints but they must repent and serve others and love others and love Jesus.
Jesus called real life and death in the after life....Jesus said He would give you eternty life if you followed His ways and said you will get death and torment forever if you do not.So He had to come as flesh to prove Himself to mankind that He loved you more giving you a choice.
It still is a mystery why God would chose this way of life.My guess is something had God infuriated and it must have been with Lucifer the Angel.Or God felt He gave no purpose to His life and everything was becoming selfish.This stuff is hard to even believe and if you are a christian you will have doubt.However the world is molded exactly as a ongoing battle and war with each other and ones own self control and to forgive and love each other.
So as unbelieveable as it sounds,there had to be ongoing struggles and God became furious at what angels where doing before humans where created is how I look at it.God became jealous over it and put a stop to whatever was going on before life was created or evolved,depending how you believe life came about.

My own theory is God gave angels the power to do what they wanted before mankind existed and they did stuff he did not like.He may have warned them not to do it.He had the major battle with Lucifer at some point and decided I will show you that I love my creation.Could be God got to the point where He wanted to make purpose for life.
Anyways that is my 2 cents worth and my own opinion.

originally posted by: Jobeycool

You focus way to much on trying to reason this stuff out.According to the bible Jesus did this to show He had real power.He also did it to save man kind from their sin.Jesus did this so mankind can walk in His footprints but they must repent and serve others and love others and love Jesus.
Jesus called real life and death in the after life....Jesus said He would give you eternity life if you followed His ways and said you will get death and torment forever if you do not.So He had to come as flesh to prove Himself to mankind that He loved you more giving you a choice.

Mankind exists since at least 100.000 maybe 200.000 or even more... why did Jesus took so long to come and do the above things you are talking about?
Why this supposed sacrifice to save mankind had to be done only 2000 years ago, how about all those billions poor unsaved souls that lived before that?

Something doesn't add up... don't you smell a scum?

It still is a mystery why God would chose this way of life.My guess is something had God infuriated and it must have been with Lucifer the Angel.Or God felt He gave no purpose to His life and everything was becoming selfish.This stuff is hard to even believe and if you are a christian you will have doubt.However the world is molded exactly as a ongoing battle and war with each other and ones own self control and to forgive and love each other. So as unbelieveable as it sounds,there had to be ongoing struggles and God became furious at what angels where doing before humans where created is how I look at it.God became jealous over it and put a stop to whatever was going on before life was created or evolved,depending how you believe life came about. My own theory is God gave angels the power to do what they wanted before mankind existed and they did stuff he did not like.He may have warned them not to do it.He had the major battle with Lucifer at some point and decided I will show you that I love my creation.Could be God got to the point where He wanted to make purpose for life. Anyways that is my 2 cents worth and my own opinion.

Interesting story but why the omnipotent creator couldn't control his creations (angels)? doesn't make sense...
And how do we know that Lucifer, devil, Satan or whatever name he has... isn't the Hero that tried to save us from the evil dictator God?

After all, according to the bible Satan has killed 10 people and God has killed 2.476.633!

Anyway I don't believe any of these, but I wanted to show you that mythological stories are just stories... and can have any meaning that the prejudged reader wants them to have...

The desert people at that time didn't had, TVs, comforts, newspapers, books, theaters, Ac, education.... nothing
They only had these primitive stories to go by....
No reason in our times to live by these ignorant unnatural superstitious stories, they are just ancient literature.

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: Ghost147
Do you know the names of any of those hundreds of thousands
aside from those in the Bible? I will tell you there are none like
Jesus.

Does it matter how many I can list? No. The point is, it was an incredibly common way to sentence someone to death.

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: Ghost147
What part of he sacrificed his life do you not understand?

The part that he existed in heaven before hand, eternally, and then went doing for not even a nano-second's worth of time to achieve very little and in a way that could have simply been done any other way considering his is an all powerful being. That is why choosing to sacrifice his life is meaningless. It would be meaningful if he was an actual human who didn't know what was going to become of him if he were to take that path, but he did know. And that knowledge alone, absolute knowledge, not just a guess, is what makes it a case that isn't a sacrifice.

The thing many of you don't seem to acknowledged, is that Jesus is an immortal god. So his 'life' on this planet for 30 years is basically meaningless for him, because he is already immortal. Thus, there is no sacrifice. This isn't a matter of not existing before hand or after he was crucified, he had always existed and would always exist. There is no sacrifice in that.

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: Ghost147
Jesus knew all about the horrors he faced and youspeak of
courage as if you know something about it? You don't.

I can certainly think of a lot worse ways to day than crucifixion and a common (for that time) beating. You act as if his death was the ultimate worst thing that could happen to someone. Again, the pain he sufficed is moot if he is an immortal being, and if he knew he was just going to go right back to heaven afterwards.

originally posted by: Jobeycool
You focus way to much on trying to reason this stuff out.

If something doesn't make any logical sense to you, despite people preaching it's 'the truth' and 'the only way' and threatening you with an eternity of torture if you don't believe it, do you just accept it? No. because it doesn't make any sense.

originally posted by: Jobeycool
According to the bible Jesus did this to show He had real power.He also did it to save man kind from their sin.Jesus did this so mankind can walk in His footprints but they must repent and serve others and love others and love Jesus.
Jesus called real life and death in the after life....Jesus said He would give you eternty life if you followed His ways and said you will get death and torment forever if you do not.So He had to come as flesh to prove Himself to mankind that He loved you more giving you a choice.

I can someone understand why he did it, despite there being many other ways he could have that would be more concrete evidence and not in a secluded part of the world, but more so on a global scale. But, that isn't what is in question here, the question is "did he really make a sacrifice?"

originally posted by: Jobeycool
It still is a mystery why God would chose this way of life.My guess is something had God infuriated and it must have been with Lucifer the Angel.Or God felt He gave no purpose to His life and everything was becoming selfish.This stuff is hard to even believe and if you are a christian you will have doubt.However the world is molded exactly as a ongoing battle and war with each other and ones own self control and to forgive and love each other.
So as unbelieveable as it sounds,there had to be ongoing struggles and God became furious at what angels where doing before humans where created is how I look at it.God became jealous over it and put a stop to whatever was going on before life was created or evolved,depending how you believe life came about.

This kind of goes along another topic. That being God's supposed omniscience (all-knowingness). The concept is told in a way that god had no idea that this was going to happen, and so became furious that it did. However, if he is all-knowing, then he would have already known even before he created the universe that he would eventually create a race that would eventually bite the forbidden fruit, that would eventually begin to fight each other, that would eventually worship other gods, that eventually he would have to go down and show that he is the god, that would eventually make a religion of that event, that would eventually lead to some still rejecting that religion, so on and so forth.

If he knew everything was going to happen like this, there is simply no room to be surprised, and thus, 'furious', of the continuing events.

they shouldn't have made up the lie that jesus was son of god. He should have been a regular human that just trusted in god so much, akak had faith, that he didn't lie when the jews wanted him to so they crucified him. What if the Christian god was fake and jesus was really going to go to hell . . . but no jesus knew he was correct so went to heaven. But he had in faith in it, not knowing it for a fact. If Jesus was really just god in disguise he didn't need faith, he would have known heaven existed. so it was no sacrifice. In fact it was the easy way out. He should have stayed on earth after being revived after 3 days and worked further to spread the religion. Instead he rose up to heaven to live the good life.

a reply to: HorusChrist

Precisely, which, in-turn, is no sacrifice at all.

originally posted by: Lucid Lunacy
a reply to: TarzanBeta

Jesus was a man, and also God. Just like if you have Irish parents and French parents, you are both Irish and French

So Jesus is a demigod. The offspring of a god and a mortal.

I knew immediately that I was reading about someone that was human.

Oh okay he is actually just human.

Jesus is God

Never mind. He's fully god.

Notice how the Father did not tell the Son why He was sent

...he's a demigod again.

Sometimes you got to leave it a mystery.... it's way more catchy,
Human, God, demigod, demidog... whatever
God himself doesn't even know what he is...
Just like the understanding of the Holy Trinity which caused the Schism

A real truth doesn't cause any confusion, it's clear...
A lie on the other hand can be very confusing, can create contradictions, gaps, misunderstandings and so on...
reminds me the bible a lot,... suspiciously .

A lie needs a million different meanings to be believed
That's why whatever clever arguments the op brings about the ''sacrifice'' of Jesus,
there is always people bringing a different meaning that suits their faith.

There were humans on this earth that suffered way more than Jesus in their lives and when they died they never came back, and according to the christian fate as they did not believed in Jesus they went str8 to hell for even more suffering.

What did Jesus lose in his sacrifice compared to humans? a
few hours of pain, being treated like a human for a few years and returned to his throne after that. So what?
It wasn't a sacrifice at all.

He showed his powers to the weak mortal humans, he gained hardcore supporters, lived an adventure down on earth, and didn't lose anything...
Sound more like a promotion than a sacrifice to be honest.

originally posted by: Dr1Akula

originally posted by: Lucid Lunacy
a reply to: TarzanBeta

Jesus was a man, and also God. Just like if you have Irish parents and French parents, you are both Irish and French

So Jesus is a demigod. The offspring of a god and a mortal.

I knew immediately that I was reading about someone that was human.

Oh okay he is actually just human.

Jesus is God

Never mind. He's fully god.

Notice how the Father did not tell the Son why He was sent

...he's a demigod again.

Sometimes you got to leave it a mystery.... it's way more catchy,
Human, God, demigod, demidog... whatever
God himself doesn't even know what he is...
Just like the understanding of the Holy Trinity which caused the Schism

A real truth doesn't cause any confusion, it's clear...
A lie on the other hand can be very confusing, can create contradictions, gaps, misunderstandings and so on...
reminds me the bible a lot,... suspiciously .

A lie needs a million different meanings to be believed
That's why whatever clever arguments the op brings about the ''sacrifice'' of Jesus,
there is always people bringing a different meaning that suits their faith.

There were humans on this earth that suffered way more than Jesus in their lives and when they died they never came back, and according to the christian fate as they did not believed in Jesus they went str8 to hell for even more suffering.

What did Jesus lose in his sacrifice compared to humans? a
few hours of pain, being treated like a human for a few years and returned to his throne after that. So what?
It wasn't a sacrifice at all.

He showed his powers to the weak mortal humans, he gained hardcore supporters, lived an adventure down on earth, and didn't lose anything...
Sound more like a promotion than a sacrifice to be honest.

The holy trinity reminds me of the uncertainty principle in physics. With trinity people had previously called god and jesus different things so the way they solved that apparent contradiction was to basically say "don't question it, he's all 3. it makes no sense but have faith in this nonsense anyway"

With the uncertainty principle in quantum mechanics, scientists couldn't figure out the position and momentum of tiny particles so they just made up a law saying it couldn't be figured out.

Both are similar in that they are obvious lies that require doublethink for people to believe. Like in 1984 where Winston Smith was tortured into believing 2+2=5.

originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: Ghost147
Do you know the names of any of those hundreds of thousands
aside from those in the Bible? I will tell you there are none like
Jesus.

Let me answer this question with one word and picture...

Freeeeeeedddddddooooooooommmmm

Much worst and you have to agree, in dark ages we improved on old arts of torture for all different reasons...

Speaking of this, did you know that ottoman used to pay extra if subject stays alive through procedure of torture with stake?

originally posted by: okrian
a reply to: cooperton

Spoiler:

Perfection does not beget imperfection… else it was made imperfect to begin with.

Correct. Being made in the image of God, they were initially perfect and immortal... They were a copy of God. They also had their own free will, and with their own free will they chose evil, and caused the curse of creation.

As an analogy, If I got a copy of the Mona Lisa, and scribbled all over it, it would not cause the original to have a blemish... only the copy would be tainted. Jesus came to erase the sharpie that we scribbled all over the copy of the Mona Lisa.

originally posted by: vethumanbeing

why not correct or manipulate the outcome of his horrible demise? .... Jesus was not a karmic sponge at all; merely the metaphor for what the human race has always been, a revolving door (hamster wheel reincarnation factory) you just recognized.

This is the crux of the matter... He had to die as an atonement for the sins of mankind, and thus lift the curse established by Adam and Eve... or as they say it in the bible "the veil was torn apart" (The veil in the OT disallowed complete communion with God). This is why I said he was a karmic sponge (as in, absorbed the malady of our mis-doings) ... he died to atone for the sins of humankind, which re-opened the gates to paradise.

a reply to: cooperton

But what is the sacrifice if you knew ahead of time you were going to live forever in heaven?

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
a reply to: cooperton

But what is the sacrifice if you knew ahead of time you were going to live forever in heaven?

Because he still felt all the pain. Even if you're God of the Most High in human form... you still feel humanly things (I think?). This indicates he was suffering: Last words before death. Yes, he knew it was going to be awesome afterwards, but it still sucks to get publicly disgraced, tormented, and crucified when you deserve no punishment.

originally posted by: cooperton
Because he still felt all the pain.

Big deal. He still knew it would all end in a relatively short amount of time.

originally posted by: vethumanbeing

why not correct or manipulate the outcome of his horrible demise? .... Jesus was not a karmic sponge at all; merely the metaphor for what the human race has always been, a revolving door (hamster wheel reincarnation factory) you just recognized.

This is the crux of the matter... He had to die as an atonement for the sins of mankind, and thus lift the curse established by Adam and Eve... or as they say it in the bible "the veil was torn apart" (The veil in the OT disallowed complete communion with God). This is why I said he was a karmic sponge... he died to atone for the sins of humankind, and the gates to paradise were re-opened once the curse was lifted.

Watch this: Analysis of the Sacrifice

a reply to: cooperton

No one is saying he didn't feel pain, but that is not the issue. The issue is that you aren't making a sacrifice if you already know the outcome and are rewarding yourself after it.

The only possible way that jesus made a sacrifice if he had no knowledge of what was going to come after it.

If a human did the same things, I would say he/she did a courageous action. If Jesus knew he needed to go to hell afterwards for all eternity in order to save us, that would be a courageous action. But in the cosmic scope of infinite time that Jesus is, the "suffering" he "endured" was not even a prick on the finger. There was so sacrifice. He knew he would go right back up to heaven.

I'm not sure why that is so difficult for many posters here to understand.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: cooperton
Because he still felt all the pain.

Big deal. He still knew it would all end in a relatively short amount of time.

We know a migraine will end in a short amount of time... does this mean migraine sufferers do not suffer?

a reply to: Ghost147


Yeah dude it's called the nature of christ.

For Jesus crucifixion to be truly a sacrifice he must have taken human form and not known all of that other god stuff. That way not only is it truly a sacrifice but perfection becomes an attainable goal for all people as well...

This has been debated for over a thousand years.

Was Jesus a man playing god, or a god playing a man?
And if he was both man and god, is it possible for other men to be gods?

a reply to: cooperton

"This is the crux of the matter... He had to die as an atonement for the sins of mankind, and thus lift the curse established by Adam and Eve... or as they say it in the bible "the veil was torn apart" (The veil in the OT disallowed complete communion with God). This is why I said he was a karmic sponge (as in, absorbed the malady of our mis-doings) ... he died to atone for the sins of humankind, which re-opened the gates to paradise."

Wasn't this accomplish by the flood?? I thought mankind got a reboot by wiping out everything (via the flood) and starting over with the sacred family of Noah. How do you explain the "Zombies" after the resurrection...how could he die but yet couldn't die...how is it a sacrifice if god knew he (his only son) couldn't die. How come nothing has changed since...SIN is still rampant...people still dies, sickness, suffering etc....Where is the evidence that the curse has been lifted???