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How exactly was Jesus' crucifixion a sacrifice?

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posted on Oct, 22 2015 @ 01:25 PM
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It was hard for me to continue further than the 3rd page.

How boastful and arrogant this generation has become.

I will try to be as reasonable as possible, but let me tell you, I am filled with frustration that so many people are so arrogant and boastful and argumentative and rebellious to anything good without even understanding it.

You should read the Bible first before you make your judgments! Actually read it. Actually get it.

That being said, let me entertain you.

Yes, what Jesus did was completely selfish. It was His selfish desire to see all of us cleansed so that the Father would accept us through His Name. It was His selfish desire that we all should worship Him because that would grant us eternal life. Did you not read? Satan offered Jesus all of the kingdoms of the world and Jesus refused! Why? Because He knew that though the world belongs to Satan, Jesus can save it from Satan.

But you see, there is another aspect you're ignoring, and actually a thousand more.

Jesus was not born with all knowledge. Jesus was a man, and also God. Just like if you have Irish parents and French parents, you are both Irish and French. Some will relate more to one ancestry and some to another.

But to have the seed of God as your part in your soul... it's obvious who Jesus is going to relate to more. But that doesn't mean that He didn't at all relate to the man because He clearly did.

He forgave the worst of sinners and even converted them for His cause. He put down those authorities that exalted themselves in their hearts and thought to themselves, "We are the children of Abraham, to whom God's promise is made!" God's intent was to prove to them that one should be a child of the promise and not a child of Abraham, for that blood means nothing. John the Baptist said it best when he said, "Think not to yourselves "We have Abraham as a father", for I assure you that God can raise children of Abraham up from these stones." I imagine the gesture.

Why do you choose to be so ignorant?

Jesus had to learn. In the Bible we are told that Jesus learned much and that He waxed strong in spirit. Therefore, because of his man part, He was not fully aware yet.

He became fully aware after studying His history and comparing it to the Scriptures and combined also with prayer to His Father, who was obviously revealed to Him by both His mother and His Father.

Do you not think in terms of other individuals? You demand that Jesus is to have a heart, but you have no heart of your own? Can you not see the boy, the man?

And you also say that God gave the sacrifice over and that it was His work, and therefore Jesus could not have chosen. And yet, Jesus did choose also to obey. Notice how Isaac obeyed his father when he raised the knife. How ignorant will you choose to be in favor of your arrogance?

Please forgive me if I seem mad, but I am, because the man who saved me is being attacked for exactly that suffering He endured. How can I not be mad?

He saved me! Because He came and was like me, and saw like me, and thought like me, and felt like me, and feared like me even - I am able to believe Him! Of course, when I read the story, I knew immediately it was real. I knew immediately that I was reading about someone that was human. I knew that everyone's idea that this was some fairy tale was foolishness from people who had never read because that man suffered in many ways the same way that I have. It was undeniable that this was truth because suffering was described EXACTLY AS SUFFERING ACTUALLY IS.

So many of you blind yourselves with your self importance and you mask your self importance with your notions of the pains of other individuals whom you truly do not care about because if you did then you would not belittle the pains of even one man, including Jesus.

How people are so easily fooled of themselves!

You mock and ridicule just like the Roman soldiers who spat in His face in ignorance, not knowing that their actions towards Him were a part of His plan for SAVING THEM.

And maybe your spit here is also purposed to that intent. Maybe you are guided by what you do not know and this will cause you to consider and no other action would have caused it.

Consider more also: If it was through sin and through the sacrifice of Jesus that we are cleansed of sin and reconciled to God in a way that is greater than if no sin had been committed in Eden, does this also justify sin? No.

Jesus became sin for us. That means that He became UNJUSTIFIED for us. But you see, because Jesus is God and is also the Judge, therefore, Satan has no foothold on the Lord of Heaven and Earth. Satan can persecute, but not ever prosecute, the Creator of the Universe, though He may try. And that is exactly what Satan's intention is: To prosecute and to impeach God so that he may have the throne of the kingdom of God.

That throne will never belong to him. He knew he lost when Jesus came back to life. He thought he won there for a few days. God was silent.

Then He was not.

How foolish some people can be.

This is no magic trick. This is not a talk about mantras or energies or any esoteric garbage. This is not a treatise about how it is okay to do harm to others as long as they are infidels. This is not some morbid list about how to serve one's self.

It's simply the history of a man who was born of God to die for all of us so that we can be free from the prosecution (though not the persecution) of Satan, the accuser, who accuses so that he can attempt to make God feel as though His plan is failing so that Satan can prove himself upon the throne and enact his form of government.

Of course, Satan has been allowed to enact his form of government upon the world. God has allowed him to take charge to prove how his government easily fails. "If you think you want to rule the universe, try earth alone. Let's see what happens. But if you cross the line, I will come." Of course, it should be expected that a devil will cross the line.

Also consider that God is like a man with an ant farm. He knows where our homes are. He can see through both sides. He knows how to take care of us. He knows the number of us. So when his spoiled brat child called Satan says, "Dad, I can take care of that ant farm better than you, you're being an idiot!" Then He says, "Okay. Go ahead. But if you kill my ants, I will punish you."

And so He shall.

And then the man's good son comes to him and says, "Father, I would like to go and take care of that ant farm, but brother won't let me have it. What should I do?" And His Father says, "Go and take care of the ants when your brother is turned away. When he turns towards you, continue to feed the ants. Whatever harm he causes you while you do this, do not fight back. That boy is your brother. Just do as I say and I will give you the ant farm because you love it and wish to take care of it."

The Father said this knowing that His bad son will attack and prevail against His good Son.

Why not stop this? Notice how the Father did not tell the Son why He was sent, but He knew beforehand when He created the ant farm to whom it should go and when it should go and all things that should follow.

Because the good Son will save all of the ants because the bad son will be proven wrong. The bad son will kill an innocent in his rule. God is right, and the Son reigns.




posted on Oct, 22 2015 @ 01:58 PM
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originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
a reply to: muSSang

according to James isnt faith without works dead? St Paul preached the opposite


Common misconception, friend! They actually didn't disagree at all. What Paul meant was that it is by our faith that we are saved, not by our works. In other words, Paul was preaching against legalism--reminding Christians that their works do not and cannot earn salvation. Salvation is a gift of God's boundless grace, fulfilled by Christ--the perfect sacrifice that ransomed humanity's sin--but one he will not forcibly give us. We receive His grace by accepting it, and we do that through our faith in Christ. He gives this gift to us out of love, though we are unworthy (imperfect) to be with Him (perfect), and will ultimately never stop sinning because of our imperfection.

Paul would agree that faith without works is dead. There's a difference between being saved by works and having our faith authenticated to ourselves and others by our works. All James meant was the latter. A person who claims to believe fully in Christ but continues a life of deliberate sin MORE LIKELY THAN NOT does not truly believe (which Jesus and Paul both reference). But, that is not for me or any of us to judge, but between that person and God. True faith in Christ and knowledge of His teachings--that connection to His love--would inspire a person and stir their heart to change for the better. They will never stop sinning because they are imperfect, but they will strive to be more Christ-like because they are called to by Christ.



posted on Oct, 22 2015 @ 02:08 PM
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a reply to: Ghost147

According to the bible...In the beginning, Satan made the implication to Adam and Eve that humans could make choices on their own separate from God. He the premise that they could be their own god's choosing for themselves what was right or wrong. (Gen 3:1-5) Adam and Eve were perfect humans at the time, yet with free will, they chose to rebel. The result was that they were banned from Eden(area within modern day Syria), could not eat from a deleted tree that sustained their lives eternally. They had kids grew old and died. Their kids started the first "tribes" in places such as ancient Sumeria. From there onward. As their genes spread so did imperfection or "sin." (Romans 5:12)
Okay, to the "sacrifice relevance." Rather than destroy Adam and Eve, God chose to allow humans to rule themselves for a time being, since Satan made the accusation that humans are better off without God's involvement. So he's allowing them to rule themselves for a while. Now, the bible tells us that God never changes, and also that whatever he purposes will come true. If he speaks it, it will be eventually. (Malachi 3:6; James 1:17;Isaiah 55:10,11). Also since he is called the God of justice, he only operates in such a manner. (Psalm 33:5) He has always been clear that eye goes for eye, tooth for tooth. Jesus was put into math and born a "perfect" man. He resembled Adam. (Romans 5:14) Adam failed to prove a "perfect" man could stay faithful to God. And he sold his offspring into sin by his actions and his perfect blood. Jesus, being perfect, allowed himself to be sacrificed and endure the most extreme torture, to balance the scales of justice with his perfect blood, and pay the debt or ransom that Adam created according to justice. (Romans 5:15-19;Hebrews 9:12-15) This is the most understandable view of his sacrifice to me. We lost paradise, and b/c of Christ we have a chance to go back to our original purpose. Because God's will doesn't change. That's why the bible holds such promises as Psalms 37:10,11 hold out.




posted on Oct, 22 2015 @ 02:22 PM
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OP, I totally see where you're coming from. When I was younger, I was an atheist, and I used to wonder the EXACT same thing.

But to be totally honest with you, friend, you're missing the point, just like I did back then.

Jesus was fully God and fully MAN. Scripture indicates that He limited His power and knowledge to only what the Father permitted Him to have. It is incredibly complex, a bit of a mind-f%#?. Essentially, they simultaneously existed, independently yet one God.

God exists outside of time. Time is merely His creation He does not experience time in the same fashion that a human does. So saying that Jesus' life was just a blip in comparison to eternity is comparing apples to oranges. Jesus, as a human, experienced time in the same way that a human does. All of his sensations and temptations were identical to what a human experiences. The immense pain and torture He experienced on the cross, He felt fully.

God HUMBLED Himself by becoming one of us. Furthermore, He was entirely sinless as a human being.

The sacrifice on the Cross was a sacrifice for these reasons. He fully experiences the pain and suffering. He fully subjected Himself to that torture and took on all of humanity's sin and suffering, though He did not need to.

My apologies if this offends you, but it is willingly ignorant and arrogant for an individual to discount that in the ways that you and others have done on this thread. The point soars over your heads to a point that it is almost laughable.

Furthermore, Jesus' sacrifice was a fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy, and reflects the symbolism displayed there.

I get it, though. You'll ask how it is a sacrifice still, or wonder how it could be when omniscient God created mankind fully aware that this would all occur. I really get it.

Still, tremendously, tremendously missing the point. God gave us free will but knew fully what we would do with that gift, and that He would need to become a man to redeem us. He loves us infinitely, more than we could even hope to imagine. He subjects Himself to unimaginable pain as we choose to sin--ALL of us. Not just you and me, but billions upon billions of people on earth alone, throughout history. He took all of that sin and suffering on at the Cross, but He continues to suffer, still, as His creation defies Him and hurts and destroys one another.

He did all of this willingly... You'll wonder why, especially when He knew all along...

Because otherwise we would be purposeless automatons. Our love would not be genuine. It would be worthless in a world without sin, anger, and suffering. With how creation is, we can love God fully like He loves us--it's difficult to find the words to explain this. I really hope you see it, get it, reflect on it... I really do. I hope that I sufficiently explained this.

God bless.



posted on Oct, 22 2015 @ 02:38 PM
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a reply to: Ghost147OP WTF is up with your avatar? Is that you?



posted on Oct, 22 2015 @ 03:03 PM
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a reply to: Ghost147

I don't know whether this has been said yet, I haven't read all six pages of the thread, but I'll attempt to explain and hope someone else hasn't said the exact same thing.

Jesus' sacrifice is NOT a sacrifice in the modern sense of the word of giving something up to achieve a goal, because as you point out Jesus never really loses anything. Jesus goes from an impoverished carpenter to all powerful master of time and space, you're right that such a thing is NOT a sacrifice in the typical usage of the word. Christians sometimes conflate the two meanings of the word sacrifice...

The other meaning is that of a religious ritual sacrifice and this is the sense in which Jesus serves as a sacrifice. As I'm sure you know the ancient Jewish method of atonements and offerings meant sacrificing animals to Yahweh. Essentially ancient Judaism, like many other ancient religions, has a form of blood-magic. Jesus is the sacrificial lamb.

So within Christianity it isn't actually important for Jesus to have given anything up because his blood was spilled in a ritualistic manner and fits that definition of sacrifice.

With that said I do find that Christians equivocate the two meanings in an attempt to emotionally blackmail people into belief by talking about how Jesus "gave his life" for us and suffered and blah blah blah. If Christians really loved Jesus - that is to say if their love of Jesus was not based on fear, indoctrination and self-preservation - I would think they would be reluctant to accept salvation and want to take responsibility for their own sins. After all if Hell is truly a just punishment that we all deserve and if they truly love Jesus why would they hoist even more sins upon his shoulders? Perhaps so that he didn't 'sacrifice' himself in vain?

I've always preferred a more human Jesus, just a guy who thinks he has a new way for people to live, an apocalyptic Jewish prophet who sees the Kingdom of God coming in the lifetime of his followers. He stirs up the establishment, teaches some good stuff, some silly stuff, some questionable stuff and plenty of controversial stuff and gets killed for his trouble. I have no sympathy for the supreme divine version of Jesus many Christians believe in who is 100% God and knows he's going to be fine and be Resurrected and reign in glory. The Jesus of Gethsemane where he is sweating blood and unsure if he can go through with it is a much more human Jesus.

Anyway I'm rambling now, Star and Flag!



posted on Oct, 22 2015 @ 03:38 PM
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I'll sacrifice myself for all your sins. Will you worship me after?



posted on Oct, 22 2015 @ 03:50 PM
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It probably depends on popular belief, where I recall coming across one website giving the idea of Jesus getting killed on the cross caused the gates of Heaven to be open, since Hell was open 24/7...Especially in those times, it was pretty much an assembly line.

Also, you kind of have to look at the circumstances of the story, where Jesus and a murderer, Barbasa where to be picked by popular vote to be sacrificed for the "Passover". Also Jesus, in the story, was said to have clairvoyance, and wasn't very...whats the word I'm
looking for...Old Testament like, not using his divine power to save himself, unlike Moses and YahWeh casting the Ten Plagues upon Egypt.

So in a way, he committed martyrdom so people would believe God again without being killed, even though his supposed ed teachings were different then his inheritant heritage was.

Other then that, it just an excuse for overzealous people to get friends to join, because they don't want to go to Hell alone, when really they all meet each other there in the end. (That was a joke)
edit on 22-10-2015 by Specimen because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 22 2015 @ 03:55 PM
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Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.

“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

“How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.

But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.



posted on Oct, 22 2015 @ 03:57 PM
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I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?


This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead



posted on Oct, 22 2015 @ 04:08 PM
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a reply to: Stormdancer777

What sacrifice is there for light to penetrate the darkness? There is none.



posted on Oct, 22 2015 @ 04:25 PM
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a reply to: Akragon

That is one of the most honestly 'Christian' understandings I have seen from someone who is.....skeptically observing Jesus.



posted on Oct, 22 2015 @ 04:25 PM
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a reply to: gflyg



I'll sacrifice myself for all your sins. Will you worship me after?


That depends...

What kind of afterlife benefit packages do you offer?



posted on Oct, 22 2015 @ 04:27 PM
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I respect people who have religion. Or a belief system. So long as it brings them joy and happiness in their lives. I believe in god 100%. A god.. or even gods. That I don't know. But that is my belief and I don't dump it on anyone.

What I have a hard time respecting is people who have religion, and then demand everyone respect theirs as the only true religion. My view is this... Man created religion. The entire system, be it Christianity, Judaism, Islam, whatever... the entire system was created as a control mechanism. Period. Good and bad. Dark and light. It is all meant to keep "man" in check. "Do this bad thing and you will go to hell." To me even hell is a man made thing. A form of fear to keep people from straying so to speak. I don't know much about other religions, but this method that I have just said is pervasive in Christianity. Especially Catholicism.

I've sat down from time to time and really looked at Catholicism and it kind of amazes me. In their views, god is one of the most evil, vindictive, spoiled entities around. "Don't make god angry or he will destroy you in fire and brimstone". "Better not tick off god or he will wipe out your entire family". It's insane.

I was raised Episcopal. My mom is very religious. She constantly tries to get me to go to church. I politely decline every time. As I've said.. I believe in a god. Because for me, I can't explain everything in our existence. And neither can science. That is just my opinion. I've always had a hard time following the whole Jesus narrative my entire life.

God sends down his only son, who is actually him? I dunno. Holy trinity and what not. Never understood it. So anyway, Jesus is born to a virgin (and that story I have a VERY hard time with.. but is a whole different topic). He grows up, but we really only follow him till he's about what? 12? Then nothing. Absolutely nothing. Fast-forward and he's about 30. He's preaching and doing "miracles" and whatnot. Turning water into wine, etc. Now.. people TODAY are very naive. So I can't imagine what it must have been like 2000 years ago. Could it be at ALL possible that these people were deceived? I'm not saying Jesus did it. But maybe they bought into it a little too much? So yadda yadda, Jesus ends up ticking off the Jewish bankers, who in turn have the Romans crucify him. They stab him in the side with a spear, a few days later they drop him in a cave. Then his family comes back, finds the cave empty. And now Jesus is back with dear old dad.. or himself. Who knows.

It just seems rather ... grapevine'ish. Didn't the old testament not even come out till over 100 years AFTER his crucifixion? Man is flawed. Man lies. The story has been changed and adjusted to fit whomevers needs over the centuries. It is MAN MADE... for an AGENDA.

I don't doubt that a man named Jesus probably existed back then. He probably was a good guy, helping others and preaching etc. I don't doubt that a man named Jesus was crucified and sealed in a tomb. Was he actually dead? Who knows. I've heard stories that he went to India and lived out the rest of his life. So who's to say those "stories" are incorrect, and the biblical stories are? I'm curious what the Vatican has locked away in their archives. I've heard they have stories from Jesus himself. I also have a strong feeling that whatever they have, they have locked up good and tight because it would destroy organized religion as we know it.

So to answer the OP's question. According to the story, it was a sacrifice because he was accepting all mans punishment. According to reality? Who knows.



posted on Oct, 22 2015 @ 04:47 PM
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"...Jesus was fully God and fully MAN..."
This is simply untrue. The scriptures refer to Jesus as god-like. But they also refer to Satan as the "God of this system."
(2 Corin. 4:4)

God never had a beginning or end(YHWH)
(Psalm 90:2)

Jesus did have a beginning for he was clearly created. If he was created then there must be a creator...? God. (Colossians 1:15)

If Jesus was almighty God and creator, why would he speak about being subject to God. Multiple times he says,"My god, and Your God." There is clearly someone above him. That's what he is saying with his own lips. That he has a God (Rev. 3:12) Then fits with 1 Corinthians where it says that 'in the end he turns the kingdom over to God, that way he can subject himself to God and God can be God to all things, including himself.' (1 corninthians 15:25-28)





posted on Oct, 22 2015 @ 05:09 PM
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a reply to: TarzanBeta

Jesus was a man, and also God. Just like if you have Irish parents and French parents, you are both Irish and French

So Jesus is a demigod. The offspring of a god and a mortal.


I knew immediately that I was reading about someone that was human.

Oh okay he is actually just human.


Jesus is God

Never mind. He's fully god.


Notice how the Father did not tell the Son why He was sent

...he's a demigod again.
edit on 22-10-2015 by Lucid Lunacy because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 22 2015 @ 05:19 PM
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originally posted by: Lucius Driftwood
a reply to: Akragon

That is one of the most honestly 'Christian' understandings I have seen from someone who is.....skeptically observing Jesus.


Well... thanks, I think?

IF you're referring to my first post in this thread... most Christians would not agree about it being a "Christian" view point... they tend to prefer the golden ticket theology, and rely on his "sacrifice" which paid some debt of sin

which is actually Paulianity... but they don't know the difference anyways


edit on 22-10-2015 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 22 2015 @ 08:32 PM
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originally posted by: TheCretinHop

"...Jesus was fully God and fully MAN..."
This is simply untrue. The scriptures refer to Jesus as god-like. But they also refer to Satan as the "God of this system."
(2 Corin. 4:4)

God never had a beginning or end(YHWH)
(Psalm 90:2)

Jesus did have a beginning for he was clearly created. If he was created then there must be a creator...? God. (Colossians 1:15)

If Jesus was almighty God and creator, why would he speak about being subject to God. Multiple times he says,"My god, and Your God." There is clearly someone above him. That's what he is saying with his own lips. That he has a God (Rev. 3:12) Then fits with 1 Corinthians where it says that 'in the end he turns the kingdom over to God, that way he can subject himself to God and God can be God to all things, including himself.' (1 corninthians 15:25-28)




...are you unfamiliar with the Gospel of John? The Word was with God, the Word was God, and the Word became Flesh.

Jesus referring to God as His God and His Father is part of the Trinitarian mystery. Three distinct persons, one God.

Jesus DID have a beginning of His human life on earth, yes, in regards to time and space. But regardless, He was with God and was God beyond time and space.
edit on 22-10-2015 by Achilles92x because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 22 2015 @ 09:12 PM
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a reply to: Ghost147




Crucifixion has been a part of ancient civilization for thousands of years (it even occurs to this day, at much lower numbers, sometimes willingly). Tens of thousands, if not 100's of thousands of people have been crucified, and it makes me wonder, just how is the story of Jesus a sacrifice in the first place?


Do you know the names of any of those hundreds of thousands
aside from those in the Bible? I will tell you there are none like
Jesus.



The way Jesus eventually was killed isn't the main issue though.


Of course it isn't to you.

Allow me to point out that you and your back patters don't have the
slightest clue or care.



What part of he sacrificed his life do you not understand?
Jesus knew all about the horrors he faced and youspeak of
courage as if you know something about it? You don't.
edit on Rpm102215v28201500000050 by randyvs because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 23 2015 @ 02:49 AM
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a reply to: Titen-Sxull




What kind of afterlife benefit packages do you offer?


Most everything aside from put out of existence and forever on fire!




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