Saudi Officials to Behead 28 Muslims for Holy Mecca Stampede

a reply to: NightSkyeB4Dawn

I am having a hard time wrapping my head around the eastern mindset where, absent a fire you would not progress in an orderly manner. In the case of the past Mecca stampedes they are willing to crush and trample others so they can at the end of it throw a rock at a wall. Do the think the wall will get up and walk off if they are not fast enough?

I was taught not to push or shove when I was four years old. Had standing in a queue down by the time I was five.

Anyhow, the stampede was caused by not being taught good manners as a child and the men are being used as scapegoats.

a reply to: ForteanOrg

Which one? I gave you THREE!


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You may actually see this one as credible?



What else can I do for you?

Stampede can kill more than a bomb...well at least the bodies are in one piece and make counting easier.

a reply to: VforVendettea

If anyone were to rewrite the stories and replace the names with comic book characters, everyone would laugh and think it was funny or just plain stupid. But label it religion and say "God", said it, and all commonsense and rational thought goes out the window-.

It never ceases to amaze me how people proclaim how great their God is, then they hide him away or lock him away in a box. Their great creator and master of all things, yet he is incapable of the tiny things, like speaking to them, understanding them. He is so awesome, but he needs your pathetic and silly rituals to feel that he is being adored and worshiped, he is incapable of seeing your love and knowing your heart.

They say he is great, but in their minds and hearts they think he is childish, self-centered, uncompassionate, brutal and scary. Makes me truly wonder what God they are really worshiping.

This world would be a lot better place if people stopped worshipping intermediaries, and following religions, and started worshiping and following God.

a reply to: StallionDuck

Iran has been doing similar things. Meanwhile these things are horrendous, do you want to start new wars with every country in the Middle East? It doesn't just happen in Saudi Arabia and Iran, but many other ME nations.

originally posted by: StallionDuck
So why kill anyone over it? Why not just chalk it up to simple error.

Because ISLAM.

Seriously. It's not Islamophobic to simply speak the truth. The only way Islam knows how to react to anything is with violence and death. The Quran is littered with specifically prescribed vicious punishments for almost anything yo can think of.

Progressives have gone so PC their brains fells out, so they simply ignore it when they embrace Islam taking hold in Europe and the US, but mark my words: These sorts of medieval, draconian arbitrary and unjust punishments are coming to the west within 50years.

Dear western nations: WAKE UP!

a reply to: StallionDuck

Aren't they chairing the UN Human rights council? LOL!

originally posted by: StallionDuck
a reply to: ForteanOrg

Which one? I gave you THREE!


Here are many more links related to this. Please look through each one before you comment again.

1
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Can I Get A Wiki! YeYass!!
6
You may actually see this one as credible?



What else can I do for you?

Find a credible source for your story about these beheadings. Your "sources" reek of politics, not of news. They are biased and like to put loud heads above theire "articles" - heads that themselves say plenty about the neutrality of these sources. They simply take any rumour that fits their agenda - or invent them - and push it as "news". Some of your sources do not even mention any beheading. I don't think anybody doubts that stampeds occasionally take place (this is nothing new, it happens when 3 million people gather in a few square miles). I also don't think anybody doubts that the Saudi government does not like to be made responsible for the stampede caused by pilgrims. And yes, no doubt people get beheaded in Saudi Arabia - a lot. That's about all we know, the rest is imagination of some guys and galls that have an agenda.

Deny ignorance - don't thrive on it.

You are aware of the Shiite/Sunni enmity - which goes back 1300 years about who controls Islam

Iran (Shiite) resents fact that Saudi (Sunni) run Mecca and other holy sites which Iran thinks should run

Iran often sends agents/provocateurs in pilgrims to Mecca to agitate and stir up demonstrations against the Saudis

Saudi take a dim view of this and come down hard on anyone causing trouble during the pilgrimages

originally posted by: Spider879

originally posted by: markosity1973
And THIS is the nation that the USA is in cahoots with in wanting Assad gone in Syria...

I see no sense of humanity or morality here at all, but hey Obama says they're OK, so awesome

All U.S presidents think they are awesome

After taking into mind that nearly all of the Saudis in the video are grossly overweight, I have come to the conclusion that Saudi Arabia must be one of the fattest countries on the planet.

We are giving them far too much money.

For the sake of their health, we must all convert to alternative fuel sources or they won't have the energy to wield those massive beheading swords.

Ironically enough, isn't it Saudia Arabia that has been chosen to lead and chair the UN Human Rights Commision this year..
I believe there had been news about that about two weeks ago..

a reply to: Kratos40

Well maybe they can show the world how it is done and lead by example.

Tent City

But Saudi Arabia are our best allies in the region, so this is ok...right? Isn't that how it works? If they are our "friends" then they don't have to pay attention to troublesome things like "human rights".

originally posted by: firerescue
You are aware of the Shiite/Sunni enmity - which goes back 1300 years about who controls Islam

Iran (Shiite) resents fact that Saudi (Sunni) run Mecca and other holy sites which Iran thinks should run

Iran often sends agents/provocateurs in pilgrims to Mecca to agitate and stir up demonstrations against the Saudis

Saudi take a dim view of this and come down hard on anyone causing trouble during the pilgrimages

Wrong wrong wrong. Sunnis & Shiites don't have enmity; Wahhabis & Shiites have enmity. Wahhabi leaders try to promote their aggression as Sunni vs Shiite both to recruit disillusioned Sunnis & to make non-Muslims butt out. Sunnis & Shiites often get married to each other.

As examples, from 1980 to 1989, Iran & Saddam's Iraq fought a bitter war. Iraq was roughly 60% Arab Shiite, 10% Kurdish (almost exclusively Sunni), and the rest were mostly Sunnis & Christians. so Saddam Hussein, a Sunni, led a country of mostly Arab Shiites against a country of mostly Persian Shiites. And Saddam, a Sunni, bombed & massacred the mostly Sunni Kurdish people in Iraq during the war.

And Syria is mostly Sunni Muslims. The Syrian military is mostly Sunni Muslims too. Yet Assad is an Alawite, which is a branch of Shiites. If it was really Sunni vs Shiite, the Sunni Syrians & the Sunni-majority Syrian military would've easily overrun the Alawite Assad. Also, Hezbollah (Shiites) are helping Assad (Alawite-Shiite) & the Syrian military (mostly Sunni) against ISIS, al Nusra, and the other extremists (who are mostly Wahhabi). And al Nusra & ISIS (Wahhabis) have been fighting, massacring, and enslaving Kurdish people, who are almost all Sunnis.

The vast majority of these terrorist groups are Wahhabis. 75-90% of their victims are other Muslims. Wahhabis make up a small fraction of Islam, and militant Wahhabis make up an even smaller fraction. Unfortunately, they'll filthy rich because of their petrodollar deals w/the West. And their backers & power brokers are well armed & well connected, because they invest heavily in Western countries and maintain lucrative arms contracts w/the West.

A parallel example would be this. Imagine you were a person in China or Japan & you wanted to understand the America right wing's negative obsession with Hispanic people & illegal immigrants. Then imagine if some internet experts said the conflict was just an extension of the many centuries long feud between Catholics & Protestants. Any actual American would know that was false. But would the average Chinese or Japanese person know this was false or would they accept that explanation?

originally posted by: ManBehindTheMask
a reply to: enlightenedservant

lol except they are not false statements

ANYONE can go on google and look up how Wahhabis came to be, im not wrong

Muhammad ibn ʿAbd al-Wahhab (/wəˈhɑːb/; Arabic: محمد بن عبد الوهاب‎; 1703 – 22 June 1792) was a Sunni Islam preacher and scholar from Saudi Arabia in central Arabia who claimed to "purify" Islam by returning it to what, he believed, were the original principles of that religion as the salaf, t

The man WHO STARTED Wahhabism , was SUNNI, it CAME from the Sunnis in Saudi Arabia

Stop with your lies , its sad that a non muslim has to educate you on your own damn religion

And once again, non-Muslims cling to non-Islamic sources to learn about Islam. Then you get mad & start cussing when you're wrong. Like I said earlier, this is like asking a Christian for advice about the beliefs & views of atheists, then dismissing the advice from actual atheists when they try to correct them.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

actually you can go to Islamic sources and look up the man who actually started Wahhabism and they still ALL say that he was SUNNI

Islamic source

Muhammad ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab belonged to the Bani Tamim tribe. He was born in Uyayna village near the town of Huraimila in the Najd Desert in 1111 A.H. (1699) and died in 1206 (1792). F - See more at: www.sufi.it...

The Bani Tamim were SUNNI

Keep up with the calling me a liar all you want, its sad that you keep on with this when i have REPEATEDLY provided proof of my statements , in links and quotes

When all you have is "Im muslim so I am right" apparently you need to research your own religions history better

originally posted by: 8675309jenny

originally posted by: StallionDuck
So why kill anyone over it? Why not just chalk it up to simple error.

The Quran is littered with specifically prescribed vicious punishments for almost anything yo can think of.
WAKE UP!

Show me all those "vicious punishments for almost anything" if you are truthful. Killing of apostates, homosexuals, and adulterers? Stoning to death? Burqa? covering hair?

Learn the difference between hadith books(hearsay sh*t) and the Quran. Though I can't blame you for your ignorance on this topic since so called followers of Islam claim to follow the Quran while deriving at least 90% of their religious laws and teachings from hearsay books authored by Bukhari and company and not Prophet Muhammad.
It's why they call themselves "sunnis" and Shi'is" etc. Muhammad wasn't a sectarian following Bukhari, he was a monotheist.

They have essentially separated the message from the messenger by claiming Muhammad came with his own sunna(teachings) hadith books, alongside God's sunna(teachings), the Quran. Quran has only authorized one sunna, the sunna of God.
"You will find that the sunna of Allah is the only sunna" (33:62....35:43.....48:23).
There isn't a single mention of the so called sunna of Muhammad in the Quran. Muhammad simply followed God's teachings, the Quran.

There wouldn't be a religion called Islam without hadith books, it is the backbone of the religion. Islam in the Quran isn't even a religion. It's the submission to the Creator and a muslim is a peacemaker. Growing a beard, wearing middle Eastern clothing and reciting the Quran a few times a day gives them the illusion of righteousness to compensate for their deviance.
The Quran condemns blind submission. It encourages the reader to reflect on it, not just give it lip-service like followers of Islam do.

www.quranicpath.com...

originally posted by: Boeing777
Islam in the Quran isn't even a religion. It's the submission to the Creator and a muslim is a peacemaker. [...] The Quran condemns blind submission. It encourages the reader to reflect on it, not just give it lip-service like followers of Islam do.

Well spoken. If your religion becomes a harness the blacksmith has a field day.

a reply to: Boeing777

Even though I disagree with some of the things you say, I agree in many ways. Islam is a religion with specific guidelines, recommendations, restrictions, and requirements (as listed in the Qur'an). The Qur'an outlines in extreme details the things that Allah requires of us as well as our rewards & punishments in the afterlife. It also leaves out the things that aren't necessary or important. But Islam's also not the same as the localized, man-made variations that exist today, which include many new restrictions, requirements, customs, etc. After all, none of God's Prophets followed any of these denominations.

Many human traditions have crept into Islamic denominations, mainly in the form of Hadith, Sunna, scholarly interpretations, fatwas etc. But even then, as long as their traditions & interpretations don't override or conflict with the Qur'an, it's ok. However, the Qur'an does specifically say not to forbid something that God hasn't forbidden, so those innovations should strictly be suggestions and not requirements. So you're absolutely correct about the requirements for hair styles, clothing styles, superstitions like eating with the "correct" hand, interactions with dogs & snakes, etc.

In fact, the Prophet Muhammad & the first 9 Caliphs all forbid teaching from anything other than the Qur'an, which proves the religion was a "religion" long before different sects started adopting Hadith & Sunna. (Plus we believe the basics of "Submission to God" is the same religion given to all of God's Prophets, from Adam onwards.) I think the major disagreement you & I have over this is the concept of a "religion". It seems that you mean "organized communion with strict rules & standards", while I mean "specific way of life that follows God & His directions".

I only became a Muslim because of my personal relationships with both God & Shaytan. It literally had nothing to do with God's Prophets, His Holy Books, or my Muslim parents (though I respect all of His Prophets since He chose them to deliver His message). I'm a nondenominational Muslim because I reject the human influences, & I've dedicated my life to fulfilling my personal covenant with God. I'm only bound by the Qur'an & my personal lessons from God because of that and because I'm not satisfied with the origins & conclusions of the human innovations.

So ironically, I'm still a Muslim by your definition even though many denominational theologians consider me a heretic. But nearly all believers I meet in real life consider me a devout believer & Muslim. The main point I'm trying to make is that most Sunnis & Shiites are still absolutely Muslims, especially those who follow God's actual directives & are "non practicing" with the additional stuff.

I've even concluded that that's why we're supposed to get along with the other People of the Scripture. Because as long as they're following the same core beliefs, they're just as worthy as we are for Heaven (1 God; respect God's Prophets & Holy Books; Heaven & Hell, Shaytan/the Devil is bad; help the needy; treat God's creations well; do good & not bad; no adultery, stealing, killing, fornicating; make peace not war, etc). As examples, the 3 believers who've influenced me the most were 2 Christian women & a Muslin woman. I almost hope they make it to Heaven more than I do (almost, I'm not volunteering for Hell for anyone though).

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Even though I disagree with some of the things you say, I agree in many ways.

No problem. I don't expect everyone to agree with me. I am considered a non-Muslim by many non-Muslims because my views are almost polar-opposite to sectarian Islam(mainstream Islam) and a "kafir" by some so called followers of Islam. I've lost friends since rejecting hadith books. I was banned from my local Mosque for asking too many questions. The same Mosque that I made my shahada and frequently went Friday prayers.

Islam is a religion with specific guidelines, recommendations, restrictions, and requirements (as listed in the Qur'an). The Qur'an outlines in extreme details the things that Allah requires of us as well as our rewards & punishments in the afterlife. It also leaves out the things that aren't necessary or important. But Islam's also not the same as the localized, man-made variations that exist today, which include many new restrictions, requirements, customs, etc. After all, none of God's Prophets followed any of these denominations.

Agree. Everything is permissible except for what God made forbidden. [Quran 33:53] "GOD does not shy away from the truth."
God doesn't beat around the bush. When God forbids a thing, it is explicitly mentioned in the Quran and condemned. When God makes something compulsory, it is also explicitly mentioned in the Quran too. When so called followers of Islam(hadith followers) argue that Quran isn't enough for them and hadith books "clarify the Quran". They are criticizing the Quran and claiming that the Quran isn't complete, without them perceiving it. They argue that the 5 daily prayers and how to pray are nowhere to be found in the Quran and so hadith books must be used.
[Quran 7:71]"Do you dispute about names which you and your forefathers invented and for which God has revealed no authority?"
They haven't just made up random prayers from hadith books that God did not authorise, but use the same lies to claim that the Quran isn't complete without the books authored by Bukhari and co. Kufr(to cover the truth up) and hypocrisy at its finest. Such people cannot be muslims according to the Quran. They are the munafiqun and kafirun.

Many human traditions have crept into Islamic denominations, mainly in the form of Hadith, Sunna, scholarly interpretations, fatwas etc.

Does history repeat itself?

The Jews, hundreds of years after Moses's death created Mishnah (hadith, sayings) and Gemarrah (sunna, Actions) and upheld them and the invented laws in them rather than the TORAH (revealed word of God).

In the city of Nicene 300 years after the death of Jesus, the concept of Trinity was created, and is now the primary source of a Christian's belief in defiance of the Bible which advocates the absolute worship of God Alone.

The Muslims 150- 200 years after the death of Muhammed created another source of their religion with the Quran, "Hadith and Sunnah", falsely attributed to the prophet Muhammed, and in defiance of the Quran. Today most Muslims have discarded the Quran in favor of Hadith and Sunnah.

The same thing is happening today. This is the true nature of organised religion(sectarianism), to hijack the word of God, invent their own books with it and cover the truth up. They(hadith followers) have the revelation(Quran) from their lord right in-front of them and recite it everyday but don't seem to understand it. Deaf, dumb and blind they are. They have stopped thinking and blindly chosen to follow what they found their parents and forefathers to be doing and they will regret it one day.

[Quran 2:170] "And when it is said to them, "Follow what God has revealed," they say, "Rather, we will follow that which we found our fathers doing." Even though their fathers understood nothing, nor were they guided?"

[Quran 33:67] "And they shall say: our Lord! surely we obeyed our leaders and our great men, so they led us astray from the path;"

[Quran 7:179] "We have created for Gehenna many jinn and men: they have hearts, but understand not with them; they have eyes, but perceive not with them; they have ears, but they hear not with them. They are like cattle; nay, rather they are further astray. Those -- they are the heedless."

[Quran 2:18] "They are deaf, dumb, and blind, so they return not."

[Quran 67:10] And they will say: "Had we but listened or used our intelligence, we would not have been among the dwellers of the blazing Fire!"

But even then, as long as their traditions & interpretations don't override or conflict with the Qur'an, it's ok. However, the Qur'an does specifically say not to forbid something that God hasn't forbidden, so those innovations should strictly be suggestions and not requirements.

It isn't ok. Any "Muslim" who isn't content with the Quran as a complete source of guidance and relies hearsay books isn't really a muslim by Quranic definition.
"Which Hadith, other than God and His revelations, do they uphold?" [45:6]
"The Quran is not a fabricated Hadith; ...it details everything." [12:111]
"Some people uphold vain Hadith to divert others from the path of God." [31:6]
"The only Sunna to follow shall be God's Sunna." [17:77, 33:62, 48:23, 6:114]

The Quran informs us that some enemies of the Prophet, described as"human and jinn devils," will fabricate lies and attribute them to the Prophet (6:12, 25:31). This is precisely what happened after the prophet Muhammad's death; Hadith (oral) and Sunna (actions) were invented and attributed to the Prophet. Hadith and Sunna are satanic innovations because they:

1- defy the divine assertions that the Quran is complete, perfect, fully detailed, and shall be the only source of religious guidance (6:19, 38, 114 and 45:6-7).
2- blaspheme against the Prophet and depict him as a vicious tyrant who did not uphold the Quran, and
3- create false doctrines based on superstition, ignorance, and indefensible nonsensical traditions.
The prophet Muhammad was enjoined, in very strong words, from issuing any religious teachings besides the Quran (69:38-48).

Some Muslims compromise: "If a Hadith agrees with the Quran we will accept it, and if it contradicts the Quran, we will reject it!" Such premise proves that these people do not believe God's assertions that the Quran is "complete, perfect and fully detailed."
The moment they seek guidance from anything besides the Quran, no matter how "right" it seems, they fall into Satan's trap (see 63:1). For they have rejected God's command not follow any hadith (45:6) and they demonstrate that they are not satisfied that the Quran alone is sufficient.