Arrogance of Humans

originally posted by: Barcs
a reply to: soulpowertothendegree

I see quite an abundance of humble humans as well. The thing is, with humble folks, they aren't actively going out of their way to start arguments over the validity of their faith or tell people how they should live their lives. They are generally quiet, respectful and treat other people above themselves. When looking at your average citizens, this applies large scale from what I have observed at least. When looking at government leaders and corporate CEOs, it goes out the window and they are the primary people that are destroying the environment at our expense. The average citizen, who is humble isn't speaking out and making a lot of noise, so it's easy to think most people are arrogant because they are the ones always in your face making themselves known. Just some food for thought.

Being humble and being arrogant are two vastly different ideas, being humble allows for you to accept that you can be arrogant at times, being arrogant does not allow for you to be humbled, unless you can admit you are arrogant to begin with.

I know plenty of both groups. Many of them have showed up in this thread. Being assertive is not being arrogant and having an opinion does not mean you can't be humble.

Arrogance is an aggressive stance on something that will not allow for humbleness and causes humans to manufacture idiotic so called facts to suit their ego.

a reply to: soulpowertothendegree

How would you classify your behaviour on this thread?

Do you feel you have been humble and respectful?

Do you feel that your posting behaviour is an example worthy of emulation by others?

Do you feel that you have managed to avoid the arrogance of humans?

Mod note:

That's about enough character assassination in this thread. If you want to get personal with people, there are other sites that promote dysfunctional discussions.

Do not respond to this post (or it will be removed).

a reply to: soulpowertothendegree

I agree that they are different ideas, but humble and arrogant are pretty much exact opposites. That's why I brought it up.

arrogant - having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities.

humble - having or showing a modest or low estimate of one's own importance.

They seem mutually exclusive to me. I don't see how somebody has to admit they are arrogant in order to be humble. What if they legitimately are not arrogant in their life? I mean, if you are arrogant at times, how can you really be considered humble? It's a personality thing, and thus is prevalent through most stances and beliefs of that particular individual. I see it with plenty of posters here and it usually carries over into all of their other views.

I agree that being assertive or having an opinion does not mean they aren't humble. What DOES show indication of this, is how they try to argue that idea or opinion to others. Do they consider their opinion absolute fact and consider all other views wrong and invalid without reasoning? Or are they willing to learn more about their stance and upgrade their knowledge when conflicting evidence or when alternative ideas or information is presented? Being humble also means admitting when you are wrong and IMO is the best way to determine whether somebody has an arrogant or humble personality.

originally posted by: Barcs
Says who? Who determines how any creature SHOULD be living. It's about survival. Humans primary survival traits are their problem solving skills (intellect) and their ability to manipulate things with their hands. It could one day save us all. It may already have done exactly that when we survived the last glacial period, while a bunch of a other hominid species did not.

Survival is exactly what I'm talking about. Harmonious with nature, not against it. The resources are there if we were wiser about things. We're destroying ourselves and the natural world is becoming collateral damage.

If you'll go back through and read all my posts on this thread you'll see that I'm not some "Animals are better than people" hippie. My point is that humans are animals too, we all have our place in this world, and we should be more respectful of our fellow animals.

Humans primary survival traits are their problem solving skills/intellect and ability to manipulate things with their hands? It could one day save us all? ....or be our undoing.

originally posted by: GetHyped

With high infant mortality and death and chronic injury from easily treatable diseases? Cool!

I'm sorry if my post went over your head. I was illustrating the difference between living with harmony and respect for nature v. raping and pillaging nature. What does infant mortality and chronic injury have to do with that????

In my ideal world we would still have technology and medicine. We would still have cities and industrialization. We would still eat meat and drive cars and have air conditioning. It would just all be achieved without the rampant wasting of resources and polluting.

a reply to: ladyvalkyrie

I agree completely, I'm really just saying you can't fault humans for using their intellect and making technology to improve our lives. Technically we are still living off the land, we are just doing it very complexly. Everything we create comes from nature originally. As our knowledge keeps improving, I feel that we will eventually have cleaner technology with less pollution and be kinder to our environment. We have come a long way in the past couple decades with nature conservation. If you think about it, we have only been a scientific society for the last couple hundred years. Imagine being on that level for thousands of years. Right now we are still in our infancy as an advanced civilization. I firmly believe that we'll turn it around at some point, but if we don't and it causes a mass extinction for the majority of humans, then we will have failed and will have to start over. Right now, people in positions of power care more about milking the oil cash cow than cleaning up our environment and polluting less. This demonstrates complete arrogance, thinking that your temporary financial situation is more important than the future of our civilization.

a reply to: Barcs
OMG! We agree!!! Lol! Trust me, I love my truck and medicine and diapers and refrigeration. I just wish I could have all that without driving whole species of animals into extinction. It seems as though our technology has surpassed our ability to responsibly produce/use it.

* That first pic was my front yard BTW. My animals are well cared for, and therefore are happy to perform their 'duties'. I can tell you that they are all intelligent and have emotions. I believe they have souls, but you have to believe in souls for that to be an issue. I love to eat meat, but I love it a lot more when I know the animals weren't being crammed in unhygienically small cages and pumped full of antibiotics and beaten and abused. There's no need for all that. Give them a happy life and slaughter them humanely. Kick it old school like the indians, thank them for their contribution before you kill them for meat. Use every scrap of the carcass. As for wild animals, let them be wild. Build your mini mall, but leave habitat for them too. I don't even kill plants or insects unless I absolutely have to.

I don't agree with every single view the OP has, but....humans ARE arrogant. Increased respect and appreciation for the natural world would do our entire species good.

a reply to: ladyvalkyrie

To me, the important part is that we have recognized many of errors we have made with the environment over the years. This gives us hope for the future that we'll solve it. It does beg the question, though. What else are we unknowingly messing up on earth? Back in the 20s and 30s it was the standard to just dump garbage in the ocean, pollute like crazy, catch fish without limit or size restraints, and pretty much reap whatever we wanted without consequence. People didn't really understand enough to think about the repercussions of our actions. Today we know better, so there is really no excuse. I have high hopes that we'll get there.

a reply to: Barcs

I firmly believe that we'll turn it around at some point, but if we don't and it causes a mass extinction for the majority of humans, then we will have failed and will have to start over.

Rather than a mass extinction, what we have been bringing about is an increase in misery for the (yet to be) many. Extinction won't come from us, it will come from something lurking, out there.

We can do something about the growing misery (which we, the privileged, have not really been affected by on the whole as yet). Whether we can do anything about that lurker...well, that depends on when is shows up and what we do in the meantime.

a reply to: soulpowertothendegree

Oh and thanks for proving my point about arrogance of humans!

I am not sure if you realize your own hypocrisy,

But you have proven your own point yourself as well.

Actually I talk to all the animals. I am like DR. Doolittle and DR. Seuss. If you want to call me arrogant for believing humans are arrogant that is just mindless psyco-babble.

No one is calling you arrogant,

you speak with it in just about every post so far in this thread.

You speak for so many, yet act as though you have some sort of enlightenment, "we" this, "we" that,

Is that not arrogance at one of the highest degrees?

If you have to ask then you are not,

Now that is quite arrogant telling a person what they are or are not for asking a question.

What amazes me is that they are so blinded by their own arrogance they can't see that they are being arrogant

Can you, or are you just as blind to your own as you say everyone else is?

Rumors? What is funny is you actually think you have offered up some kind of proof that refutes the possibility that they could be more spiritual than humans and all you have done repeatedly is prove the main contention of the OP. You are so focused on one aspect of what was written that you have no clue what the entire OP was about. No where in the OP did I say I had proof of anything, the proof has come from the responses.

Humans are arrogant.

So is your OP a confession, or do you place yourself above others?

It sure sounds like you aren't admitting your own but pointing out your perceptions of everyone else's.

Can you speak for yourself and say you are not arrogant and what I have read is simply my own misinterpretation of the arrogant things I have read you post?

I bet if I bring statistics in here and detail all the rapes and murders that humans have done you could not even find .00001% equivalent of the entire animal kingdom combined.

Again quite an arrogant claim

They sure are more spiritual and far less arrogant than any humans.

I believe animals are more enlightened on what their purpose is on this planet because they don't have characteristics like arrogance that we humans have, yes we might see such characteristics in domesticated animals, but less so in wild animals in my opinion.

the animal kingdom is less diverse in characteristics when compared to humans, humans go from one end of the spectrum to the other where wild animals live simple, like human ancestors or early humans used to.

Hunt,Eat, sleep, Sh!t, and reproduce.

Humans today and in modern times keep getting more and more complex, new beliefs that take from here and there come and go, concepts repeated over and over.

People speaking for others and acting as though they know what other are and aren't which most times is a way to hide what they themselves are.

You have convinced me beyond all shadow of a doubt.

What you have convinced me of is that you have so much arrogance in you,

what I haven't seen is if you actually know your own arrogance, hence why mentioned hypocrisy,

I mean if you were to say you are a hypocrite then you would have a foot to stand on as being arrogant and quite so as it seems would allow you to observe it in others, however you write as though you are not, you use superiority or at least that is how I interpret your posts.

I cant believe you actually posted the definition as well.

Can see any of that in your posts?

HUMANS ARE THE MOST ARROGANT SPECIES ON THIS PLANET!!!

Why is that?

Could it be because arrogance is a human characteristic?

Or did some animal teach humans how to speak and how to define characteristics we have?

The premise of the OP was to point out we have no idea what animals think of us because we do not even bother to think they can.

Again with the "we",

Now this is a great example where I believe you show you arrogance,

You said you speak to animals like Dr Doolittle but "we" have no idea and you do.

A few poster have tried to point it out, can you not see your own or can you?

I know I have lumped all HUMANS together, but I realize there are many like me that feel the same way.

Yes because that is weakest way to get a point across, paint with wide brush and wide strokes.

Yes many realize their own arrogance and its them in my opinion that might see it in others better because they can see it in themselves.

Do you see the arrogance in yourself for lumping all humans together?

Or not because many feel as you do and you guys aren't arrogant because you all might have similar beliefs?

That you thought I was speaking on behalf of all humans is humorous, I was giving my perspective and you are just another example of what being arrogant is, look up the definition.

So you are speaking for yourself when use the term "we" and "humans"?

Being humble and being arrogant are two vastly different ideas, being humble allows for you to accept that you can be arrogant at times, being arrogant does not allow for you to be humbled, unless you can admit you are arrogant to begin with.

Can you?

Sorry if I missed it or misinterpreted that you are a part of the "we" you speak about.

I have read the whole thread and haven't seen you imply that you are, which is why I believe you aren't as qualified as someone who is aware of their own arrogance to see it in others.

I am quite arrogant and a hypocrite and just every post I read of yours reeked of it with touches of anger and disgust, but like I said I could have misinterpreted even though it seemed quite clear to me.

Mod note:

For those who have read the whole thread and others who may not, this is the second instance where I have interjected this message:

Please stop attacking the intelligence and psychology of your fellow ATS members.

Stick to a general opinion on the arrogance of humanity and not each other.

Thank you.

Do not reply to this post.

a reply to: InhaleExhale

Once again proving to me that arrogance runs amok.

Since existential thought and comment seems to be an unattainable goal, I am giving this thread a time-out of 24 hours.

This should be enough time to do some navel gazing on the arrogance of the human race.

All animals are sweet loving super spiritual beings except for the human animal, which for some absurd reason MUST be treated as a special case either as superior than everything else or the ultimate demon and destroyer.

Have fun in your black and white worlds.

The truth is shades of grey, but there's too much hate to see reality for the truth of.

When a natural disaster comes and obliterates most life on this planet, other than you being dead, I hope in that moment before death you realize that nature, and all life in it, simply is, and simply was.

True humility is coming to the realization that we simply are, we're not special, as demons or angels, we aren't better than the rest of the animal kingdom, nor are we worse.

We're all just different entities doing the best we can with the tools we have to survive in a crazy, chaotic, and hostile environment.

Man didn't kill the dinosaurs, nature did, man is not responsible for any of the major extinctions in the history of this world. In reality we are but a small blip compared to the damage to live caused by nature itself.

Humans aren't the first species to out compete others. The dinosaurs that existed when the dinosaurs died out were very different from the ones when they first colonized the earth? Why because of millions of years of bloody and brutal competition in an evolutionary arms race.

In between before the dinosaurs and in between the time of humans, and even while we've been here, there have been mass extinctions. We've suffered through one and squeaked by barely ourselves. During all this time, in between these mass extinctions that make the damage we've done look like a flick of the ear, many species also died as they out competed each other and failed to adapt.

As has been pointed out before, some of which can no longer be mentioned, despite the educational truth of them, there's no real behavior that humans possess that can't be found in the rest of the animal kingdom, including our worst traits. The only think separating us from much of the animal kingdom is our thumbs and advanced technology.

If you think hyena's would still exist if lions could use and possessed advanced weaponry you're kidding yourself, same with if you gave it that ability to hyena's instead. They're brutal competition would end in extinction for the other soon after one gained such a distinct advantage. In fact give that ability to a single male lion and watch him start killing all the other male lions, and butchering every child that's not his as well. In fact, advanced weaponry or no, chances are, one of them will win their war one day unless man wins it for them.

Nature is brutal and competitive, it just happens over many many years of brutality with the winners children living to see tomorrow while the others die out and if they lose enough, bam, extinction.

To make nature even more unfair, the winners could die too, thanks to one of a million natural disasters that could occur, leaving ash from which the lucky survivors after years of living a meager existence trying to survive what's left rise to find themselves on top as the few left. The winners then being whatever creature won the evolutionary lotto to survive whichever for the destruction took.

You're confusing non-human animals as special, more spiritual, and more in tune with nature, but that's not true, there is no in tune with nature, nature is an unfeeling uncaring force, both beautiful and horrifying in it's complete and total objective neutrality. There's nothing to be in tune with. Just something to make the best of and try to survive in as little misery as possible for as long as you can.

The rest of the animal and plant kingdom is our brothers and sisters in the struggle against nature, who like the joker in batman tossed two criminals a broken pool stick and told them, "I'm having tryouts and there's only room for one." So we are pitted against our brothers and sisters due to an uncaring force that could kill any of us at anytime with no remorse or comprehension of the lives it's squelched.

Like every other animal, we're pretty clueless really, yeah we have technology, but like the rest of the animal kingdom, ultimately, we're babes in the woods blundering about and hoping we get things right and live to see tomorrow. The big picture, if there even is one, does not exist for most humans, who just like the bear, wakes up and goes about their day hunting and foraging for the things that keep them alive and healthy and gives them those nice little chemicals of pleasure the brain of all creatures long for.

I know I'm pretty clueless when I go about my day, I must be, I'm struggling, barely making it, one bad day away from losing everything, yet again. Just another animal struggling as I blunder about the woods hoping I learn enough that tomorrow my day might just be a little more easier and a little more happier, hoping for a little bit of security and the comfort the illusion of such brings.

Rest of the animal kingdom, pretty much the same thing. Are human's arrogant? Nope not really, we're just dumb animals with claws too big for our intellect. We're babies with bazookas. We're not arrogant, we're clueless monkeys with a whole bunch of crap we've created but barely comprehend. We're not destroying and killing because we're monsters, we're doing it cause our technology is of control and we're too wrapped up trying to survive as individuals and being clueless just like every other creature on this cold unfeeling rock.

Give any predator the weapons to hunt without risk, and you'll soon find too many predators and too little food. Really, we've shown quite a bit of restraint overall, that intellect of ours is good for something. While you see an arrogant species unwilling to do what's right, I see a struggling species that is in a precarious and chaotic situation it really doesn't have the know how to deal with, but is at least trying.

Humanities biggest threat is also it's greatest strength, as a species we've been too successful too fast. We keep having new things before we even fully understand the old or the consequences of it's use.

Long story short, no humans aren't any more or less spiritual than any other animal, nor are we better or worse beings, we're just babes in the woods like everything else.

a reply to: Puppylove

What an extraordinarily wise and eloquent post.

You are, of course, absolutely right. Your example of what would happen if lions and hyenas were given guns is particularly telling.

I wonder why people are so quick to attribute a completely spurious benevolence to 'nature'. No doubt they are disillusioned with humanity (which is understandable, especially in the young) but why project the qualities they fail to find in their fellow humans on to a totally fictitious entity and create an absurd mythology around it? I suppose it's easier than projecting the same qualities on to real things or people.

Only people very ignorant about the natural world can possibly adopt this mythology -- like the lady earlier who thought the farm she grew up on was 'natural'. Evidently she has never recognised that a farm is actually an artificial contrivance, a machine that includes animals among its working parts, along with tractors, winnows and milking machines.

The concept of nature as benevolent is usually confined to city dwellers who have no real experience of it. Primitives and people in pre-industrial cultures tend to view 'nature' as hostile and malefic, an enemy to be overcome or propitiated rather than a friend to rely on or a god to be adored. Pastoralism as an aesthetic movement was coterminous with the Industrial Revolution.

There is a higher sensibility that recognises the harmony of the natural world and even worships it; but it is under no illusions about what it embraces, and adores the violence, ruthlessness and arbitrariness of 'nature' as well as its beauty and its extraordinary interactive homeostasis. In other words, it worships death as well as life and wallows in filth as often as it luxuriates in the scent of roses.

The lady in my avatar is an exponent of this philosophy. It is one of the reasons I admire her and fear for her. But that is not germane to the topic, and I do not wish to discuss her any more.

a reply to: Astyanax

I think part of the reason people like to think better of nature is because in truth, there's little more horrifying if you truly look into it. They want there to be some kind of sentience, so there's some kind of purpose to it all. They want animals to be better than us, because when we look at ourselves we see many horrible things and hope for something better. Is why so many people hope/believe in aliens that have moved beyond all our foibles and failures of morality. It's about hope.

The problem is, even with that hope, the world still sucks more often than not, so they find they need to blame somebody and be heard. So, like many do, they blame others, we make great punching bags, with the news pushing every human atrocity it can, with everything we see and hear about humanities misdeeds everyday, we're simply the best easiest targets.

Not only that, but those who need this hope, even if they are unwilling to admit or accept it, experience and see the same failures in themselves daily as the put upon everyone else. Unwilling to accept it, it pushes them to even harder rail against the other humans who reflect the failings they hate within themselves.

It's all just hope, and an inability to accept reality and the harsh truths derived thereof.