Why did God give them over?

a reply to: Cuervo

So does that mean that a Christian who does not "challenge the perfect will of God" is shielded from committing sin and that the Christian god only removes that shield if the Christian challenges him? How would you explain Christian homosexuals or Christian divorcees who have never challenged the "perfect will of God"? Does this mean that any Christian who deviates from the strict church definition of sexuality must not have enough faith? If that's not what you meant, what did you mean by "then God will turn away from that mind and let it have its way with no interference from Him or striving with that soul"?

No. No one is shielded from committing sin and everyone does commit sin every day of their waking life. Sodomy is sin and adultery is sin. Lying and stealing, murder, and back biting is a sin among a host of other things. Every act or thought against the perfect will of the Creator is a sin to the Creator. A homosexual or divorcee has challenged the perfect will of God the very same way that we all challenge the perfect will of God every day.

Now are you asking the question that if a person commits the act of homosexuality or adultery are they any more guilty of sin then if I lie or steal or murder? The answer is that all of us who will overcome and repent of sin will enter the kingdom of heaven. All of us who do not repent and delight in sin and die in that state will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Given over to a reprobate mind is taught that God has poured out His Spirit upon all flesh according to the prophet Joel (2:28) and the Apostle Luke (Acts 2:17). God strives with all people in many ways and does not want one soul to perish. That is His perfect will of love, but in His foreknowledge He knows that not all will accept Him and some will perish. Those who will not accept Him are those who God tearfully turns away and in sorrow will let them have that freedom that He gives to all of us. Through foreknowledge, He knows that soul will be lost but only by that soul's own contention against Him.

Can we challenge the existence of God? Yes we are told to try the Spirits and not to follow just any spirit. How do we do this? We are taught this through the many Prophets, Apostles and disciples of Christ Jesus. We will see the truth of this matter in the words of these men and women who were of Christ Jesus.

Of course all of this is theological belief. If a person refuses to believe this then that is their right to do so but not without repercussions. So what am I saying? What I am saying is that sin is sin and all sin goes in the same dustbin.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Chapter one is building up to what is laid down in chapter two. Otherwise it is cherry picking.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Char-Lee

I think is is pretty simple, we are God's children, when your children become grown and they decide that everything you taught them is of no value and throw it out.

When did we grow up? I don't remember a childhood where father god was bouncing me on his knee, reassuring me when I fell, teaching me about the lessons of life. Nope, father god never came 'round when I was a child.

:-) You have the genetic teaching built in. We all know right from wrong it is called a conscience.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: infolurker

What sayest thou?

I am not interested in some comments of a dead man long ago.

Then there is no discussion of ancient texts for you as that is what they are made up of.

originally posted by: Char-Lee

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Char-Lee

I think is is pretty simple, we are God's children, when your children become grown and they decide that everything you taught them is of no value and throw it out.

When did we grow up? I don't remember a childhood where father god was bouncing me on his knee, reassuring me when I fell, teaching me about the lessons of life. Nope, father god never came 'round when I was a child.

:-) You have the genetic teaching built in. We all know right from wrong it is called a conscience.

I agree with this, somewhat, but if it is emphatically true that right and wrong are solidly programmed into us genetically, why is everything so gray, instead of black and white? Why do I, even though I'm not a homosexual, have no problem with it, and not only do I think it's not wrong, I applaud any celebration of love, while others vehemently condemn it?

originally posted by: windword

originally posted by: Char-Lee

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Char-Lee

I think is is pretty simple, we are God's children, when your children become grown and they decide that everything you taught them is of no value and throw it out.

When did we grow up? I don't remember a childhood where father god was bouncing me on his knee, reassuring me when I fell, teaching me about the lessons of life. Nope, father god never came 'round when I was a child.

:-) You have the genetic teaching built in. We all know right from wrong it is called a conscience.

I agree with this, somewhat, but if it is emphatically true that right and wrong are solidly programmed into us genetically, why is everything so gray, instead of black and white? Why do I, even though I'm not a homosexual, have no problem with it, and not only do I think it's not wrong, I applaud any celebration of love, while others vehemently condemn it?

The gray is because we have free will and people who fight their built in knowledge long enough in order to become comfortable with what they want rather than what they know is right will lose the benefits of this guide.

We are instructed to love, we are not instructed to ever hate anyone for any reason, we are instructed to hate wrongful actions without judging and without hating any person. Each person must follow their own path we can't do anything for each other.

If a person has blunted their conscience or lost the ability to tell what is a wrongful action then they have the texts that were written for a purpose and if they believe the texts are not just ramblings of some ignorant humans they can be guided there. Seek and you find.
We are also told that if we ask we will receive and this includes answers, but when we receive an answer in our heart we will be inclined to either embrace it or fight it following our own will or the will of God.

Once you establish and nurture the built in knowledge (conscience) it is always there with answers but it takes time and effort. Every baby step we take off a healthful path we push the conscience further away, wall it up and eventually close it down.

All bad things usually start with baby steps. I want to do this, it is no big deal. I want this... stealing this little thing is no big deal. I need sex and my partner is not giving it to me I deserve to have this affair it is only fair and no big deal. Our comfort zone grows wider step by step to the detriment of the conscience until it will not respond any longer, thus you will be given over to your own objectives.

a reply to: Char-Lee

The gray is because we have free will and people who fight their built in knowledge long enough in order to become comfortable with what they want rather than what they know is right will lose the benefits of this guide.

This is a cop out, in my opinion. I think most people discard their sense of right and wrong for agreed upon religious and social norms.

I don't think that there's anything wrong with leaving an abusive, loveless and forsaken marriage, find love again and remarry, to live happily ever after. But, it's wrong according to the Bible.

According to the Bible, slavery is good thing, but i find morally appalling.

Some people can't look at a chicken clucking around and then have chicken for dinner. It assaults their sense of right and wrong and they've separated themselves as vegetarians. While the Apostle Paul deemed them weak. They believe they're taking a higher moral ground.

I believe that we all imbued with a certain sense of morality, that has evolved over the millennium. I don't believe that a guide to morality exists in the Bible or any other book, or that religions hold the higher ground when it come to morality. I belief that it's expressed individually, on a moment to moment basis.

a reply to: windword

This is a cop out, in my opinion. I think most people discard their sense of right and wrong for agreed upon religious and social norms.

True and for greed and for fun, you won't be comfortable nor fit in in this world if you are on the narrow path.

I don't think that there's anything wrong with leaving an abusive, loveless and forsaken marriage, find love again and remarry, to live happily ever after. But, it's wrong according to the Bible.

If both in a couple were following the correct path you would love one another.

According to the Bible, slavery is good thing, but i find morally appalling.

The bible doesn't say that, it tells slaves to be obedient and not fight the masters, the world as it is today was in the hands of Satan, that is why he could offer to let Jesus rule the whole planet, we are not to fight this but acquiesce until the time when it is changed.

Some people can't look at a chicken clucking around and then have chicken for dinner. It assaults their sense of right and wrong and they've separated themselves as vegetarians. While the Apostle Paul deemed them weak. They believe they're taking a higher moral ground.

I am a vegetarian but I have no feeling of taking a "higher ground" i simply have compassion for all creatures and this is a choice for me. All I have trouble with for others is that they don't care about the treatment of their flesh foods while they are alive.

I think what was being spoken of was that the old laws had passed away, the rules to not eat this and that given to the Jews was no longer to apply and the old laws had been fulfilled.

I don't believe that a guide to morality exists in the Bible or any other book, or that religions hold the higher ground when it come to morality. I belief that it's expressed individually, on a moment to moment basis.

I agree with you about religions actually they seem to be on the broad road...and you are saying the same thing as far as conscience directing you moment to moment.
Ancient texts are full of wisdom in my opinion I don't feel a compilation called the bible is the basis or end all for study and learning.

a reply to: Char-Lee

If both in a couple were following the correct path you would love one another.

We grow, evolve, sometimes we grow apart. Sometimes, letting go of an unproductive union is the most loving thing to do. At any rate, you can't love someone else if you can't love yourself.

The bible doesn't say that, it tells slaves to be obedient and not fight the masters, the world as it is today was in the hands of Satan, that is why he could offer to let Jesus rule the whole planet, we are not to fight this but acquiesce until the time when it is changed.

The New Testament glorifies slavery.

Romans 1:1
Dear friends in Rome: This letter is from Paul, Jesus Christ’s slave, chosen to be a missionary, and sent out to preach God’s Good News.

I am a vegetarian but I have no feeling of taking a "higher ground" i simply have compassion for all creatures and this is a choice for me. All I have trouble with for others is that they don't care about the treatment of their flesh foods while they are alive.

That's all I meant about taking the moral high ground. It's a personal inner moral compass that allows us to take a stand against something that bothers us, that doesn't seem to bother others as much. Which brings us back to the hard line of right and wrong being hardwired into us genetically, yet we don't all reflect or experience the same compassion, empathy or morality.

a reply to: windword

The New Testament glorifies slavery.

Other versions

Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and

but clearly a self chosen path.

I think when people grow enough they learn that love is about being kind to one another respect, you would not cheat one one another, your love is not about looks or lust the instructions are good ones in the bible. I don't think you can outgrow truly loving.

I think some develop their conscience further but we have a lot of leeway to make decisions and if they are based on the right things and not a direct disobedience to a command we are supposed to put up with each others differences.

We agree on much I think

so here is what the Bible says,

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 ¶ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

it is a form of wrath (wrath is a judgement of God) because they hold the truth about God in unrighteousness and that those who know the judgement of God not only are given over to do those things that are not convenient, do the same and have pleasure in them that do likewise.

This giving over to all that is written in the verses above is God's judgement not any mans judgement.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

So, let me get this straight.

You believe that God has punished homosexuals with homosexuality, because homosexuality is evil?

a reply to: windword

No. Not punishment of Homosexuals but of mere men and women.

These individuals are not homo by nature but given over too it at a young age and just think they are. Homosexuality is the Judgement of God for not holding the truth of God in righteousness.

Man will say, "we are gay by nature", but Gods word says they are gay because they hold the truth of God in unrighteousness.

It is a spiritual matter not a physical one.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

So, in your opinion, God prejudges children, toys with their sexual impulses at adolescence making them believe that they're gay, because, as children, they didn't know the truth of God's righteousness.

Your God is a dick, in my opinion!

a reply to: windword

you think you can judge God. it is easy to see you too hold the truth of God in unrighteousness.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

I think that I can judge the God of your imagination. I don't believe in any other kind.

a reply to: windword

you are given up to all that Romans one talks about. You are the proof of the truth of God and that he is righteous in his judgement.

Because by your own words you bear the truth of God in unrighteousness

originally posted by: windword

originally posted by: Char-Lee

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: Char-Lee

I think is is pretty simple, we are God's children, when your children become grown and they decide that everything you taught them is of no value and throw it out.

When did we grow up? I don't remember a childhood where father god was bouncing me on his knee, reassuring me when I fell, teaching me about the lessons of life. Nope, father god never came 'round when I was a child.

:-) You have the genetic teaching built in. We all know right from wrong it is called a conscience.

I agree with this, somewhat, but if it is emphatically true that right and wrong are solidly programmed into us genetically, why is everything so gray, instead of black and white? Why do I, even though I'm not a homosexual, have no problem with it, and not only do I think it's not wrong, I applaud any celebration of love, while others vehemently condemn it?

You have no problem with it because you have been given over to a reprobate mind.

Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them

a reply to: ChesterJohn

I never said what you have quoted me to say, but my answer to your biblical nonsense is:

Life is worthy of death!

There is no god playing around with children's sexual urges to make them gay because he's a "righteous god". That's just nonsense!

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Homophobia, sexism, slavery, and inequality is not from The Spirit of God within.

If they are gay, then they are gay. It has nothing to do with Paul's version of God "punishing" anyone.

Everyone is a God. The Spirit of God is within the human being and you ARE Spirit, not just a physical body.

You can never become God because you already ARE God in The Flesh.