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Why did God give them over?

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posted on Jul, 17 2015 @ 06:29 PM
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Romans chapter one was being used by some to show God did not like Homosexuality but upon closer look god actually gave those who practice it over to it.

I think the reason was clear though but thought I would ask others to read it and post why they think God gove them over to it according to Romans chapter 1


edit on 17-7-2015 by ChesterJohn because: (no reason given)




posted on Jul, 17 2015 @ 07:03 PM
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originally posted by: ChesterJohn
Romans chapter one was being used by some to show God did not like Homosexuality but upon closer look god actually gave those who practice it over to it.

I think the reason was clear though but thought I would ask others to read it and post why they think God gove them over to it according to Romans chapter 1



If read entirely out of context, it almost sounded like it was a punishment for making idols and not following the author's specific idea of worship.

If "punishment" entailed a constant supply of opportunities to satisfy your lusts, I'm sure a lot of people would be lining up to make some golden idols themselves.

Care to tell us what you were getting out of this chapter?



posted on Jul, 17 2015 @ 07:06 PM
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a reply to: Cuervo

Kinda what I got out of it too.

Like saying "Fine, go do your nasty and have your fun."

But also with a hint you will pay for it later.



posted on Jul, 17 2015 @ 07:15 PM
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Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.


Romans 1:24-25

Basically they worship creation rather than the Creator. So we tell ourselves all kinds of lies to justify the things we do based on what we see in the creation around us. And we worship the things we make for ourselves, and we tell ourselves we can be god.

This justifies all kinds of things people do.



posted on Jul, 17 2015 @ 07:39 PM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers:

(24-32) Hence they fell into a still lower depth; for, in anger at their perversion of the truth, God refrained from checking their downward course. He left them to follow their own evil bent. Their idolatry developed into shameless immorality and unnatural crimes. At last the extreme limit was reached. As they voluntarily forsook God, so He forsook them. They ran through the whole catalogue of sins, and the cup of their iniquity was full.

In the passage taken as a whole, three steps or stages are indicated: (1) Romans 1:18-23, idolatry; (2) Romans 1:24-27, unnatural sins allowed by God as the punishment for this idolatry; (3) Romans 1:28-32, a still more complete and radical depravity also regarded as penally inflicted. The first step is taken by the free choice of man, but as the breach gradually widens, the wrath of God is more and more revealed. He interferes less and less to save a sinful world from its fate. It is to be noted that the Apostle speaks in general terms, and the precise proportions of human depravity and of divine judicial impulse are not to be clearly determined.



posted on Jul, 17 2015 @ 08:09 PM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn


I think the reason was clear though but thought I would ask others to read it and post why they think God gove them over to it according to Romans chapter 1

Do you mean why does God give those who choose this practice over to a reprobate mind?
God gives everyone the right to choose bad or good. That is called His permissive will. Permissive will is simply that God allows all of us to do as we please. God teaches through his apostles and disciples but when a mind becomes so determined as to challenge the perfect will of God and refuses to repent from His abominations then God will turn away from that mind and let it have its way with no interference from Him or striving with that soul. That soul then has been given over to a reprobate mind. It has condemned itself. That condemned soul can repent from any abomination except cursing God.



posted on Jul, 17 2015 @ 08:31 PM
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originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: ChesterJohn


I think the reason was clear though but thought I would ask others to read it and post why they think God gove them over to it according to Romans chapter 1

Do you mean why does God give those who choose this practice over to a reprobate mind?
God gives everyone the right to choose bad or good. That is called His permissive will. Permissive will is simply that God allows all of us to do as we please. God teaches through his apostles and disciples but when a mind becomes so determined as to challenge the perfect will of God and refuses to repent from His abominations then God will turn away from that mind and let it have its way with no interference from Him or striving with that soul. That soul then has been given over to a reprobate mind. It has condemned itself. That condemned soul can repent from any abomination except cursing God.



So does that mean that a Christian who does not "challenge the perfect will of God" is shielded from committing sin and that the Christian god only removes that shield if the Christian challenges him?

How would you explain Christian homosexuals or Christian divorcees who have never challenged the "perfect will of God"? Does this mean that any Christian who deviates from the strict church definition of sexuality must not have enough faith?

If that's not what you meant, what did you mean by "then God will turn away from that mind and let it have its way with no interference from Him or striving with that soul"?



posted on Jul, 17 2015 @ 08:52 PM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn

I think is is pretty simple, we are God's children, when your children become grown and they decide that everything you taught them is of no value and throw it out. If they become a criminal or something abhorrent and opposite of all you taught them you do as it says
"So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired."

You can do no more as much as it hurts you.
www.bible.com...



posted on Jul, 17 2015 @ 08:59 PM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn

Prosopeia. We need to learn that word and concept. It was used in Romans. It's where Paul is reiterating another teachers arguments which he will then argue against. The person who read Paul's letters would be trained to use a different voice as he imitates the opponents arguments.

Whether Paul totally disagrees with the opponent we don't know for sure but that much of Romans was written with this rhetorical device.
See Douglas Campbell "the deliverance of God".



posted on Jul, 17 2015 @ 09:38 PM
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a reply to: Cuervo

No. It's one thing to sin. We all sin. The key is how you respond to it.

Are you aware that you have walked away from God or do you look for ways to justify your sin as proper and correct, not sin at all? When you start doing the latter, you are walking the road described in Romans. And God gives you up to it.



posted on Jul, 17 2015 @ 09:59 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Cuervo

No. It's one thing to sin. We all sin. The key is how you respond to it.

Are you aware that you have walked away from God or do you look for ways to justify your sin as proper and correct, not sin at all? When you start doing the latter, you are walking the road described in Romans. And God gives you up to it.



So you can either be aware of it or you can try to justify it. Those that are aware of it can still follow the Christian path but those that try to justify it cannot? I think I can follow that so far but does that mean that Christians who continually sin (like remarried couples, gay folks, etc) and can't really not sin and are continually aware of it are able to gain salvation even when it is impossible for them to turn away from "sin"?

I ask because I know of several Christians who are in situations where their very existence causes them to sin and I've always wondered how they reconcile that (I've never felt comfortable asking them, obviously).

I know I can be a bit catty with my baiting questions sometimes but I'm being serious about this and I'm admitting ignorance to this process. I really want to know how that scenario works for the average Christian.



posted on Jul, 17 2015 @ 10:16 PM
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a reply to: Char-Lee




I think is is pretty simple, we are God's children, when your children become grown and they decide that everything you taught them is of no value and throw it out.


When did we grow up? I don't remember a childhood where father god was bouncing me on his knee, reassuring me when I fell, teaching me about the lessons of life. Nope, father god never came 'round when I was a child.



posted on Jul, 18 2015 @ 01:53 AM
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a reply to: ChesterJohn

The verse is about becoming addicted to sin. Like the alcoholic is addicted.

The verse is not about people born gay, because they couldn't be given over to it. It is about straight men having gay sex wich is a perversion.

God did not make the straight man try gay sex, but he will give them over to addiction. The alcoholic wants to stop but can't. The straight man may want to stop, but his addiction takes hold.

He will either be shamed, or justify it. Either way God gave him over to his perversion via addiction.



posted on Jul, 18 2015 @ 08:48 AM
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“You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment?”— Romans 2:1-3 NIV

Context changes once framed better.



posted on Jul, 18 2015 @ 09:09 AM
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originally posted by: Cuervo

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
Romans chapter one was being used by some to show God did not like Homosexuality but upon closer look god actually gave those who practice it over to it.

I think the reason was clear though but thought I would ask others to read it and post why they think God gove them over to it according to Romans chapter 1



If read entirely out of context, it almost sounded like it was a punishment for making idols and not following the author's specific idea of worship.

If "punishment" entailed a constant supply of opportunities to satisfy your lusts, I'm sure a lot of people would be lining up to make some golden idols themselves.

Care to tell us what you were getting out of this chapter?


Please Identify the context of this chapter.



posted on Jul, 18 2015 @ 09:10 AM
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a reply to: infolurker

What sayest thou?

I am not interested in some comments of a dead man long ago.



posted on Jul, 18 2015 @ 09:14 AM
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a reply to: Cuervo

you need to read the passage and tell us why did God give them over to sin.



posted on Jul, 18 2015 @ 09:16 AM
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a reply to: MonkeyFishFrog

First try addressing Romans 1. No one is judging anything out side of Scriptures.



posted on Jul, 18 2015 @ 09:18 AM
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a reply to: MonkeyFishFrog

context of chapter one is different than that of Chapter two.

Stick to the chapter at hand.= and stop derailing the thread.



posted on Jul, 18 2015 @ 09:32 AM
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originally posted by: MonkeyFishFrog
“You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment?”— Romans 2:1-3 NIV

Context changes once framed better.


Indeed and Paul is lengthy is coming to his point.


What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:


“There is no one righteous, not even one;

11
there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.

12
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”

13
“Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”[c]
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”[d]

14
“Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”[e]

15
“Their feet are swift to shed blood;

16
ruin and misery mark their ways,

17
and the way of peace they do not know.”[f]

18
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[g]

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
Romans 3: 9-20

All this time he has been talking about the old Mosaic Law. The law is useful for instructing us what sin might be. And your passage about judgment is in the context of the law. Remember how the Pharisees were always trying to judge Christ within the strict context of the law? Even going so far as to try to construct impossible scenarios for Him in order to trap Him in legalisms without regard for the righteous spirit of the law, only it's literal letter?


But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
Romans 3: 21-31

And here he concludes that the only real way to escape the judgment by law that no one can uphold and by which judgment no one is worthy, is through faith. Faith in Christ, and through that faith, we can be brought around to the law anyhow by our faith in Him.

Which is basically the point of the whole question in place.



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