How Does One "Make Themselves" Believe?

a reply to: WakeUpBeer

That's the interesting thing isn't it? There are indeed things being experienced. Some more miraculous than others. But still, something is going on.

Yes, it's very much going on, and that's the interesting thing.

I think you and I are on the same raft entirely.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: TzarChasm

Maybe you are a natural born cold reader

I don't know. Perhaps a tiny bit.....
but I have to be interacting with people, so it's more of a "warm read".

I don't know. So many charlatans out there! It's as bad as having so many preachers, truly! Or, dare I say - "lawyers"?

I'm no "psychic" - but I feel like I feel stuff intensely when in an interaction with others.

It's called.....

intuition.....

a reply to: FyreByrd

Have a nice nap. And thank you for your thought-provoking posts in the thread.


I'm about done myself - off to watch some entertainment that doesn't require such deep thinking and attention....

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I love it, too - it's so....TRUE!!

It is true - for me it's a personal mantra

possibly...disputed

I went on a quest a few years ago and found a bunch of stuff that says yes he said it - no he didn't - yes he's real - no he isn't...not that I would know either way. How could I?

Forgive me for being a buzz kill Buzzy :-)

This is what I love about any of this though - does it matter who said what if it touches us in some way? Could be Siddhartha - could be Ray Bradbury. Does it matter?

a reply to: SyxPak

You are as I was, growing up in disbelief. I still am. I am 53 yrs old now. Midwestern born and raised too. I think that whatever You are comfortable with, go with that. Who's to say who is right or wrong really. Just my 2 cents here. Just live Your Life as You see fit! You Keep Your Faith! In whatever that is...

THank you for chiming in, SyxPak.

I agree with your 2 cents.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: borntowatch

Don't tell me what I think. I'll tell YOU what I think, and yes, I AM curious.

Curious means eager to learn, you have a passing interest, nothing more.

Curious people dont ask people in the internet for the truth, they seek it.

You have completely ignored matthew 25 29

If you want to learn, you learn, it grows. You have no interest because you wont learn

You think you think, is all

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

It is true - for me it's a personal mantra

possibly...disputed

I went on a quest a few years ago and found a bunch of stuff that says yes he said it - no he didn't - yes he's real - no he isn't...not that I would know either way. How could I?

Forgive me for being a buzz kill Buzzy :-)

Possibly disputed. Yeah - so is everything that anyone from ancient times had to say - I still like it.
You aren't killing the buzz at all - and I'm brain-drained now, so - I bid you all goodnight.

a reply to: borntowatch

Curious means eager to learn, you have a passing interest, nothing more.

Curious people dont ask people in the internet for the truth, they seek it.

You have completely ignored matthew 25 29

If you want to learn, you learn, it grows. You have no interest because you wont learn

You think you think, is all

Oh.
Okay.

This post is not even worthy of a response....
but have a nice day anyway, though.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: ketsuko

It ties in with the idea that broad is the path and narrow is the gate.

Hmmmm.

No. I think it ties in with the Hindu Proverb:

"There are hundreds of paths up the mountain, all leading in the same direction, so it doesnt matter which path you take. The only one wasting time is the one who runs around and around the mountain,
telling everyone else that their path is wrong."

So - you start in a "narrow gate", but as you ascend on your own path, it eventually gets wider and easier to navigate. And you come across others who have got there by their own path.

I think the Hindu quote misses half the equation. Try adding the two together. It makes an hourglass.

We do indeed all have to make our own walk on our own path. No two people will experience God in the same way. So many people walking on the path which is very broad and has many, many names. The gate we all have to go through is very narrow, only room for one in that gate. That gate is the point where you come to know Him. It's personal because it's your experience with Him.

In this world, we get to the gate. And we have to be careful not to lose it.

Perhaps the Hindu half of the quote talks about what happens after we cross or pass through. And indeed, from that narrow gate we broaden out again to meet with the others who have found the gate as well. And all are together in the road then.

It almost sounds like you are saying believing in some sort of abrahamic faith is a requirement or that you feel you are doing something wrong by not believing. I would say don't feel this way because you don't have to.

"I just don't understand what I am "supposed to do" to make myself "believe" stuff that I just don't believe. "

Is something nagging you in the back of your mind rejecting your rejection of the items you listed? There is clearly conflict here which suggests to me you have not come to a reasonable and self satisfying conclusion.

Re-assess and look for new info on both sides of the argument from new sources and challenge all of your thoughts/held beliefs...Repeating this process may yield a favorable outcome for you and a new perspective.

Thats what you SHOULD do...you should always be willing to challenge/review/reflect on all of your beliefs as hanging onto any single belief without challenging them can be detrimental....

Hang in there. All will be well


a reply to: BuzzyWigs

a reply to: ketsuko

Finally... :-)

It's a hard thing to explain. There is a spiritual thing inside yourself. If you feel it, you know what I mean.

This is what I'm talking about ketsuko - this is the stuff I live for. These conversations

I do feel it, and I do know what you mean. But, I'm an atheist

Honestly, this is such a meandering, interesting, never ending topic. I could babble on for another five pages about life and love and art...the power and necessity of metaphor, parable and allegory for creatures that speak consistently (whether they realize it or not) only in metaphor, parables and allegory

Science says we may be wired to believe in God. Spiritual and religious folk - the faithful - might laugh at that. Scoff even. Same as the irreligious think certain things are preposterous. Science is nothing but the mind looking in and looking out, trying to understand where we are and what we are - how we are. Faith doesn't require any data

Why we are is another thing entirely, and we all have different ideas about that :-)

And that is the best I can do.

Same as that ketsuko

I understand why Buzzy started this thread

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

No, I do get that. Science may just now be getting around to realizing that we all have a need to believe in something, but look at the patterns of society and you see that evidence everywhere. It doesn't take science to prove it, only someone able to see the evidence of their own eyes.

To me, it's only more proof of God as it seems to serve no evolutionary purpose for our genes if we have any kind of spiritual faith or not.

And, of course, just because we may have a wired need to believe doesn't mean we are forced to direct our faith in the right direction either. We have the right to choose where we place that faith and in what.

a reply to: ketsuko

To me, it's only more proof of God as it seems to serve no evolutionary purpose for our genes if we have any kind of spiritual faith or not.

Well there are many interesting theories about that - and I'm not knowledgeable enough to get into any of it

We all do, as you pointed out, have a need to believe in something

Any discussion (like this one here) worth it's salt is inevitably going to end up with the two sides trying to talk the other out of their position. It should be fun - and could be funny, but it hardly ever is

I don't much see the point in that anymore - though I admit I did at one time

But, what the hell :-)

Do you ever wonder if AI reaches a certain point if it might not be inevitable that it wonders why it is too?

Inevitable as - inescapable. Thinking is like that

I kid ketsuko - but might there not be a point in the future where AI feels it might need to make a choice between the abyss and Jesus?

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
a reply to: ketsuko

To me, it's only more proof of God as it seems to serve no evolutionary purpose for our genes if we have any kind of spiritual faith or not.

Well there are many interesting theories about that - and I'm not knowledgeable enough to get into any of it

We all do, as you pointed out, have a need to believe in something

Any discussion (like this one here) worth it's salt is inevitably going to end up with the two sides trying to talk the other out of their position. It should be fun - and could be funny, but it hardly ever is

I don't much see the point in that anymore - though I admit I did at one time

But, what the hell :-)

Do you ever wonder if AI reaches a certain point if it might not be inevitable that it wonders why it is too?

Inevitable as - inescapable. Thinking is like that

I kid ketsuko - but might there not be a point in the future where AI feels it might need to make a choice between the abyss and Jesus?

I would say it is more likely that AI would start asking us what its purpose is. But then, there is a difference between finding your purpose in life and having faith. I can't claim to know what my purpose is; I only have faith there is a place to go when I'm done here. Heck, I don't even know for sure if I'm "one of the saved" as BuzzyWigs puts it, and I won't know until that day comes.

It is an interesting line of thought however, about the AI, and which would you rather? An AI that believes it has higher purpose and a reason to exist or one that has no purpose or reason except that which is conceives of? Either path could become scary when you start to think about it. One the one hand, you have AI that can anoint itself as god as soon as it gains that power. On the other hand, you have AI that scares the bejesus out of you when it starts asking you if it has a soul.

I've played the Mass Effect series many, many times, and this actual question is one of the central themes of the whole.

More probable IMO that if AI ever gets to the point of some sort of sentience, it would form its own religion (if it was to form religious beliefs in the first place). Us humans would be the Gods. Warring amongst ourselves.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Spiramirabilis

And, of course, just because we may have a wired need to believe doesn't mean we are forced to direct our faith in the right direction either. We have the right to choose where we place that faith and in what.

The whole "wired to believe" concept is not a proof for god, it's just an example of how active brains seek information. Religious views always deal with absolute certainties, and that's what the brain craves (even if that information is absolutely false). It is no surprise that there is a million and one religions out there, because religions and gods are made from the minds of humanity; a personal description on how something functions, only there to appease the curious mind.

The only difference from my perspective and yours is that your doing your best to perceive everything as a proof for your world views and ideologies, whilst also rejecting anything that opposes it as some kind of safety mechanism for your mind. My view is based on the fact that there is absolute knowledge, so I base conclusions on evidence, rather than searching for evidence to support my presupposed conclusions.

What would happen if someones entire universal view were to collapse? Especially when they have put so much effort into rejecting anything that opposes it. Especially when they are told it is "absolute, infallible truth". Those people are setting themselves up for an extremely difficult event. Reality and rationality will inevitably sink in if you can no longer surround yourself with a firewall of false fantasies.

The advent of the Internet is a death sentence for religion. There's information everywhere, and rational conversations trumping the common faith-based arguments. Education is the way to end religion. You being here is a very threat to your faith.

I'm not saying this as a warning, or even a threat itself. It is a much more interesting world when you don't have to follow it from an adult's fairytale book.

After all, if the brain seeks correct information, what's the use of replacing or rejecting what is more accurate for what is absolute mythology?

a reply to: ketsuko

On the other hand, you have AI that scares the bejesus out of you when it starts asking you if it has a soul.

I imagine (imagine) that question would creep out any reasonable God

But, a lot of the time I don't think big enough - that's just me :-)

If AI asked me that question - I'd just start crying. Then a very smart AI would have it's answer

Out of here for tonight ketsuko - thanks for this

:-)

a reply to: Ghost147

Soon we'll be left with nothing but fundies and luke-warms!

originally posted by: WakeUpBeer
More probable IMO that if AI ever gets to the point of some sort of sentience, it would form its own religion (if it was to form religious beliefs in the first place). Us humans would be the Gods. Warring amongst ourselves.

My husband has the theory that if AI every got to that point, we'd have nothing to fear. The AI would look at the mess we are basically say, "Eff this!" and bug out for the stars. Even if we ever got the to point where we could go after it, it would take forever before we'd be competing against it, and by then, if it was anyway competent as an AI, it would be so advanced, it might as well be god.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I don't have a personal experience to share since I am not a ''believer'' either.

My opinion is that people are trying to explain some personal spiritual experiences or even ''inner'' questions,

according to the religion of the societies, they happened to be born in.

such an experience could be a supposed miracle, or other life changing experiences...

When I was a believer (as a child), I tried to explain everything good or bad happening to me through the christian

religion ''philosophy'', and I've seen many examples of not so religious people becoming passionate believers, after been

subjects to certain experiences.