How Does One "Make Themselves" Believe?

a reply to: Involutionist

I have to ask, if gnosis means "know yourself", does agnosis mean "don't know yourself"?

Is there such a thing as antignosis? Antegnosis? Postgnosis? Pregnosis?

There is diagnosis, which must mean explain why you are a symptom....or, dia (which means through or across) and gnosis .... through knowing yourself. Physician, heal thyself.


I can have fun all day with this word.

ETA: I forgot prognosis..which means to project an outcome.

From my diagnosis, the prognosis is favorable.

a reply to: Involutionist

That is what ALL mystical schools of thought try to express. They encourage the knowledge of transcendence arrived at by way of interior intuitive means (Gnosis). Know Thyself.

This is exactly how I see it. We are all on our own, individual journey.

An old Hindu Proverb:

"There are hundreds of paths up the mountain, all leading in the same direction, so it doesnt matter which path you take. The only one wasting time is the one who runs around and around the mountain,
telling everyone else that their path is wrong."

]
And Buddha:

“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”
Buddha quotes (Hindu Prince Gautama Siddharta, the founder of Buddhism, 563-483 B.C.)

a reply to: WarminIndy

I have to ask, if gnosis means "know yourself", does agnosis mean "don't know yourself"?

Is there such a thing as antignosis? Antegnosis? Postgnosis? Pregnosis?

There is diagnosis, which must mean explain why you are a symptom....or, dia (which means through or across) and gnosis .... through knowing yourself. Physician, heal thyself.


I can have fun all day with this word.

ETA: I forgot prognosis..which means to project an outcome.

From my diagnosis, the prognosis is favorable.

Gnosis is the common Greek noun for knowledge (in the nominative case γνῶσις f.). In Christian, Islamic, or Jewish mysticism, mystery religions and Gnosticism gnosis generally signifies a spiritual knowledge or "religion of knowledge", in the sense of mystical enlightenment or "insight".

Etymology[edit]
Gnosis is a feminine Greek noun, which means "knowledge".[2] It is often used for personal knowledge compared with intellectual knowledge (eidein), as with the French connaitre compared with savoir, or the German kennen rather than wissen.[3]

The true Jesus was a Gnosis...

Gnostic Gospels.

I can have fun all day with this word.

Yes, many are spellbound in their daily existence...

Gnosis:

en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Always loved that
Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it


Buddha was a naturalist. Or, Buddhism is a kind of allegory for naturalism

:-)

Nice thread Buzzy - a nice read for a rainy day

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Spirituality doesn't have to include believing in a "God." I do believe in unseen forces, and have had supernatural-type experiences. I believe in reincarnation.

Hi BuzzyWigs
You said that you believe in reincarnation. That has always been one of my favorite interests. If you have faith in that belief then how did you come about that belief? The reason I ask is this.

You believe that you will be reborn into another body. What part of your present body survives to be reborn?

When your present body dies where does the other part of your body that survives go? Is it a celestial abode or terrestrial abode and who or what is in command?

Who or what decides what you reincarnate into? Is it a Creator of sort? Is it a happening or purposeful?

I had best stop there and let you catch up. I am not trying to entrap you but am trying to understand some things about this subject and I know that you are well founded in common sense.

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

I love it, too - it's so....TRUE!!

Anyway, I also am glad you're enjoying and participated in the thread, and I LOVE your monkey avatars!

Double post

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

And honestly, the thread is in part prompted by the theocrats in this and other parts of the world - ISIS, for example - how do they expect to "make" the unbelievers into believers? By beheading them? Lining them up and shooting them? How are the non-ISIS people supposed to "make themselves" believe?

There is a difference in unbelief and non conforming. I would say you lean more to non conforming than incapable of belief.
The ISIS scum could care less if one actually believe the way they do, they are more interested in conformity. They want people to conform not believe.

Why would you want to?

It's an ongoing process for lots of people. My husband and I examine and re-examine our faith every day. What do you think conversations here force me to do? If I am at all participating in them in an honest manner, I have to consider other points of view in order to formulate a reply.

On the political side, that means considering other political positions.

On the religious side, it means examining the position of my faith.

You either arrive at the conclusion one day that it no longer makes sense to you, or you have yet to run into any counters that shake what you believe. And that goes for any and all belief systems, including atheism. However, if you believe in Buddhist viewpoints, then you ought to consider that in many ways, they harmonize and are not incompatible with Christian ones.

You ought to also consider that just because you can't stand the persons of a faith is no reason to chuck the faith itself out with the bath water. People are people and you find people in all walks of like and all creeds who are going to corrupt the intent and purpose of that creed. The most famous example for the counterpoint is that Stalin really didn't do what he did because of communism or atheism; it was just because Stalin himself was bad ... and Mao ... and Pol Pot.

Well, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

a reply to: Seede

If you have faith in that belief then how did you come about that belief?

It came into my mind - after considering what I was aware of. I distinctly remembering talking to my mom about it - that it seems most logical to me that we progress as souls in a series of short-lived bodies....that when we've learned all of what our oversoul needs to know, we can either keep going or can come back to help.

You believe that you will be reborn into another body. What part of your present body survives to be reborn?

Nothing of your present body. Only your soul. Our atomic particles don't die....we are all stardust that came from the same Source. That Source is not a person, not a judge, not a king or parent.

When your present body dies where does the other part of your body that survives go? Is it a celestial abode or terrestrial abode and who or what is in command?

Into another dimension, a "celestial abode" I guess is a good word for it - where "time" as we know it doesn't really exist. No one is "in command."

Who or what decides what you reincarnate into?

Your own oversoul, in conference with other ethereal beings who help you like a "school advisor".

Is it a Creator of sort?

No.

Is it a happening or purposeful?

It is purposeful.

I had best stop there and let you catch up. I am not trying to entrap you but am trying to understand some things about this subject and I know that you are well founded in common sense.

About 16 years ago I was invited to attend a lecture on a blind date. The woman who was speaking was Judy Goodman - she talked about the whole idea, and has her own website. A couple of years later she came back to town to do a private workshop, which I enrolled in.

Our souls make a "contract" - a decision - an agenda before we return.

We don't have 'conscious' recollection of it once we're back here, because real, honest experience is the BEST TEACHER. So, we live it out - and then return to HQ and review our most recent life.

Also - you could read the Tibetan Book of the Dead to get another idea of how I see things.

Thanks for stopping by! And for the 'common sense' compliment.

a reply to: ketsuko

Why would you want to?

It's an ongoing process for lots of people. My husband and I examine and re-examine our faith every day. What do you think conversations here force me to do? If I am at all participating in them in an honest manner, I have to consider other points of view in order to formulate a reply.

I'm glad to hear this. I never knew if you were considering things with an open-minded view.

And, I don't really "want" to "make myself believe"- but it's curious how some people want to force everyone into their belief system "or else".
The Inquisition happened.
ISIS is happening.
Oliver Cromwell was real.

And you're right (in my opinion) it is and should remain an ongoing process. I don't "want to". I just wanted to know how others think it can be accomplished to "save someone's soul" - what is their target supposed to do?

I'd love to hear what of your ideas have been most challenged and which of those, if any, have changed.

However, if you believe in Buddhist viewpoints, then you ought to consider that in many ways, they harmonize and are not incompatible with Christian ones.

Yes, that is true. Actually I believe that if Jesus existed, he was one of the Bodhisattvas, like Buddha and others before him. Some souls come back to help - and their message in common is "Treat others they way you want to be treated" as well as "look inside yourself - it is inside yourself."

I just don't believe that if someone doesn't accept the "teaching" of any certain group they should be shunned, ostracized, beheaded, belittled, "condemned", threatened with physical harm or exile, or burning in hell, tortured, etc.

a reply to: ketsuko

However, if you believe in Buddhist viewpoints, then you ought to consider that in many ways, they harmonize and are not incompatible with Christian ones.

So, then I have to ask - what's with all the exclusiveness - and the only way to heaven stuff?

:-)

Oh, simmer down and reply ketsuko

I am all about the tongue in cheek

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

"There are hundreds of paths up the mountain, all leading in the same direction, so it doesnt matter which path you take. The only one wasting time is the one who runs around and around the mountain,
telling everyone else that their path is wrong."

One of my favourite proverbs of all time.

Bruce Lee's approach to life and martial arts exemplifies this ideology. Basically, Bruce didn't adhere to one style of martial arts. What he did was incorporate many different disciplines into his own style. I have walked the path of Gnosticism, Kabbalism, Suffism, Buddhism, Hinduism, and a few others since a child (long story...just the way things evolved naturally) and incorporated the teachings that I have weighed empirically into my life philosophy. This to me is reflects true religion which is to live according to one's own light.

Develop your own style using the wisdom and teachings of others. Do not accept any dogma as complete and whole. Incorporate the things that provide value and comfort to your daily existence.

Personally speaking, I have always interpreted the Bible through Gnostic eyes through esoteric Christianity, therefore I do not read scripture as literal, historical, biographical or cosmological factual accounts, but instead interpret it through an understanding of the metaphorical meanings. I know each character, place and thing in the Bible is the personification of psychological states, eternal states and spiritual states.

Here is gematria spelled out simply (page down and work your way up...)

www.lojsociety.org...

Again, live by your own light. If the above link does not resonate with you, then disregard it.

Respectfully,

Involutionist

ETA: The first ten minutes pretty much sums it up.

a reply to: Involutionist

Thank you!

*************************

And also, thanks to everyone who has offered resources like books and websites for me to look into. I know I haven't responded to everyone, but I have READ everyone's posts, and I appreciate it very much.

To ALL OF YOU, regardless of faith or faithlessness,

NAMASTE (the divine in me recognizes the divine in you)

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
a reply to: ketsuko

However, if you believe in Buddhist viewpoints, then you ought to consider that in many ways, they harmonize and are not incompatible with Christian ones.

So, then I have to ask - what's with all the exclusiveness - and the only way to heaven stuff?

:-)

Oh, simmer down and reply ketsuko

I am all about the tongue in cheek

It's a hard thing to explain.

There is a spiritual thing inside yourself. If you feel it, you know what I mean. I'm not sure the literal expression of it is the best way to go, but as with everything in this world, we are limited to speech to try to describe the indescribable.

The way to God is through belief. As a Christian, there was a literal, physical representation of that provided for you in the person of Christ. Through that is the easiest way to arrive at the necessary spiritual salvation. I'm not always 100% sure it's the only way, but only God knows for sure. Until then, I know how I arrived at it, and that is through the Christian way.

And that is the best I can do.

a reply to: Involutionist

So the gnosis of knowing...isn't that what my discussion is about?

All that you have done is verified my original argument that personal experience (gnosis) overrules blind faith, because now you know (have gnosis) that God exists.

The gnosis isn't that metaphysical, allegorical or symbolic, not even cryptic anymore.

Gnosis means you know, therefore the real gnosticism is knowing God exists because you know God exists. And we know (gnosis) God exists from our experience. So the real gnostics are then those who are experienced believers in God?

I think you have defined it well, thank you.

Let me just clarify my statement here to make it clear what I mean...As gnostic means a knower because they have gnosis, then Christians like FlyersFan, Disraeli, and I are gnostics, because we know.

You know, another problem is this, we read the Bible in today's English and assume the words used have meant the same throughout history. So when you hear the word faith, you automatically think it means to just believe or accept without thinking. Not so.....

Etymology
Faith

mid-13c., faith, feith, fei, fai "faithfulness to a trust or promise; loyalty to a person; honesty, truthfulness," from Anglo-French and Old French feid, foi "faith, belief, trust, confidence; pledge" (11c.), from Latin fides "trust, faith, confidence, reliance, credence, belief," from root of fidere "to trust," from PIE root *bheidh- "to trust" (source also of Greek pistis "faith, confidence, honesty;" see bid). For sense evolution, see belief. Accomodated to other English abstract nouns in -th (truth, health, etc.).

It is a cognate of fides. As we can see, that was the way the word was used then, to mean that we are faithful (have fidelity) and trust that God has the same fidelity towards us.

Faith is therefore a matter of the will. To consciously engage our trust. And we do not blindly engage our trust in what we do not know.

And it brings up a better verse that I might use, "it is better to have never known, than to know and turn away". As BuzzyWigs right now indicates that she never really knew, as in the sense FlyersFan, Disraeli, Seede and I do, BuzzyWigs cannot be judged, because she didn't know.

BuzzyWigs indicates that she only heard about God, that she only was presented with an idea of God, but that God to her wasn't something she really knew or understood. Therefore, BuzzyWigs cannot be judge for lack of faith, because BuzzyWigs never had the trust to begin with, and that is why BuzzyWigs cannot be forced to believe, because BuzzyWigs has not known God the way some of us have.

believe (v.) Look up believe at Dictionary.com Old English belyfan "to believe," earlier geleafa (Mercian), gelefa (Northumbrian), gelyfan (West Saxon) "believe," from Proto-Germanic *ga-laubjan "to believe," perhaps literally "hold dear, love" (cognates: Old Saxon gilobian "believe," Dutch geloven, Old High German gilouben, German glauben), ultimately a compound based on PIE *leubh- "to care, desire, love" (see belief).

As the original word believe comes from the Old Saxon (German) means to hold dear or to love. It was only later that believe was changed in meaning and now people use believe only as believing something to be true.

If we go by the original meaning of belief and faith, we see that the original meaning was that a Christian is faithful (has fidelity) toward God, holding Him in trust, because we hold God dear.

It is impossible to say that BuzzyWigs lacks faith because BuzzyWigs doesn't believe. And here is why, all of this is based on knowing God through experience. Therefore there is no compunction upon BuzzyWigs to have fidelity toward a God that she doesn't know. Therefore she can't hold God dear, because she doesn't know.

Before you even get to faith, there has to be experience first. Call it gnosis if you like. Once you have gnosis, then the rest comes.

And I hope that all makes sense. BuzzyWigs cannot be forced to have fidelity toward a God that she doesn't know.

That is the best answer I can give right now.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I didn't have time this morning to finish my post. I wanted to end it off with this. One of the most inspirational things I've heard in a long time. It's an hour. It requires headphones, a sofa, and a pillow.

a reply to: WarminIndy

Before you even get to faith, there has to be experience first. Call it gnosis if you like. Once you have gnosis, then the rest comes.

Yes. I speak from Gnosis. How about you...?

I get things with my eyes closed based on the application of the Bible's esoteric teachings. Neville Goddard may help you become more a creator of cause and less a pawn of effect.

Lift up your eyes...and illuminate yourself so you to can speak from gnosis. After all, who wants to live out their existence as daily commuters...?

ETA: Faith is believing in the unseen as if were seen. So, your version of faith is the polar opposite of what I have personally come to experience in my life when faith is concerned.

The story of Lazarus might help you better understand where I'm going with this...

a reply to: WarminIndy

Before you even get to faith, there has to be experience first. Call it gnosis if you like. Once you have gnosis, then the rest comes.

And I hope that all makes sense. BuzzyWigs cannot be forced to have fidelity toward a God that she doesn't know.

In a way, that's quite eloquent. I could take it as alleging that my condemnation is due to "ignorance", but I know you well enough, I think, to determine that what you mean is that "my" path is okay, even if I don't believe the Bible stuff the others believe.

And, that doesn't make me "defective". It just puts me on another path.

That is the best answer I can give right now.

It's perfect, if I've interpreted it correctly. If not, please let me know.
Thanks

ETA:
Yeah, but, sorry dearest, it still kinda sounds like you possibly see me as if I'm some kind of "innocent" or "ignoramous" in this. Like somehow you and Disraeli and Ketsuko and so on et al "get it", you are "seniors" -- specially anointed members of an exclusive club who have to be initiated first----- and only some souls are eligible, depending on whether "Jesus" did whatever or chose whoever or meant whoever or exhorted or rejected or condemned whoever......
that you all are members of an exclusive, snickering club (or pitying club) looking down on the rest of us with a sigh of disappointment and hopelessness......

where I'm just sort of a middle-schooler, or an adult too thick to do so, who is simply ill equipped to think clearly about philosophical things.

Like I'm not going to get a ribbon as a 'chosen one' - or a ticket (you must be this tall to go on this ride) to participate,
because the Holy Spirit ditched me??? Like what is in me isn't something you all recognize, sanction, and expect? And if I lack it, then "poor, pitiful, inattentive, silly person."

Again - INDY, I KNOW you don't mean it like that. I'm just giving an example of the "no" side of me. I'm typing as I think - how it feels to be treated as an unbeliever in a faith.

I WANT your feedback about this.
Yours and everyone else's. How do you "think of me" in terms of your faith and your certitude that it is the only viable one?

a reply to: FlySolo

I'm going to watch it right now!!