Bruce Jenner and the "Transgender"

a reply to: Astrocyte

I think this has something to do with the way the brain is hard wired at an early age. Between the age of 1 and 18, your brain is growing by leaps and bounds, the synapses are connecting themselves a certain way based on stimulus and environment. I think in some people their external environment somehow can wire a male brain to think its female. Maybe Jenner had a strong maternal parent but not so strong or present male influences, and this affected his self perception. So he grows up thinking he is female because thats the personna that was imprinted on him during development. That being said, IMHO if we are born into a male body we are meant to be male. But I am not someone going through this so I dont think anyone can understand it if they arent in those shoes. The conflict that arises from thinking you are female in a male body must be horrendous. But I question if this is something I would want to share with the entire world if I was going through it. I dont understand why people have to put all their innermost secrets on display these days.

As long as he/she is happy, then more power to him/her.

It was interesting watching his/her CNN interview the other day.
I've always been of the opinion that if it doesn't harm anyone,then a person should be free to be whatever they want, and if they want to be a woman instead of a guy, and they have the money, then go for it.
I'll watch the change with amused interest,
forming my own weird questions in my mind that will never be asked,
(Although I really do wonder what his new name will be, hope it is not something like Cinnamon, it is probably out there somewhere already but I have not seen it yet)
and then be happy that someone was able to be happy.

I really do find it interesting that a person can change physically from one gender to another now.
That is just amazing and kind of weird, but kind of cool.

As long as he is being him/herself,
I say way to go!

originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: Astrocyte

Who cares he aint harming anyone.
Live and let live.

In reality, that's not correct. By contributing to the consensus that re-defines "normal" into something that can be potentially devastating for the minds of the youth, he is in essence harming people who had not otherwise heard of transgender people.

For emphasis:

Alarmingly high suicide rates among transgenders

Encouraging people by entertaining delusions that you can be whatever you want to be, ultimately leads to rejection by society, confusion about who and what a person really is, and depression leading to suicide, particularly if a permanent decision is made to undergo an irreversible operation.

Political correctness prevents one from calling it what it is, a mental illness.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: Astrocyte

Thank you for the food for thought. I tend to think hormones would play a bigger role than the mind, but I really don't know.... I'm still trying to understand how it "feels" to "feel like a woman." I AM a woman, and I still couldn't tell you.. I can tell you how it feels to live the life of a woman, because I have. Likewise, how could I possibly know what it feels like to be a man? I have absolutely no frame of reference, except from the outside looking in! But I don't have to understand to know this is his choice and is very emotional to him, and therefore very important to him. It's not my head, not my body, not my money, not my journey.

I wish Bruce and his family the brightest blessings. This is a rough road he's embarking on, and I sure don't envy him, but I hope he finds what he's looking for in the end. He's already breaking barriers and stereotypes... maybe we'll all learn something from his journey too.

I am a woman also.

Unless he has a uterus, ovaries and other female biological parts inwardly, then he doesn't understand what being a woman is. Neither you nor I can say what it feels to be a male either.

Society is fixated on the outer image. And men are fixated on that in women as well.

But there is a new phenomenon going around called MGTOW, men are abandoning relationships and blaming it women because to them womanhood is no longer the old-fashioned role they once approved of.

Bruce Jenner is a perfect example of MGTOW, he defines womanhood as being the perfect image that he perceives as being rightly womanhood. Now society is throwing that onto children, believing that children are cognizant of sex.

I have seen for myself the things the OP has mentioned, when a child is raised with the idea that somehow their parents had preferred a boy over a girl or a girl over a boy, parents might not think there is anything wrong when they mention it off-hand or in front of other adults, but the child hears that and begins to believe in themselves that it would have been better if they acted like the other gender, their parents might love them more. Children pick up on those things.

I know two sisters who both grew up in the same house, one was prettier than the other and the mother was always comparing the younger one to the older and prettier one, both were told that the prettier one was pretty. After growing up like this, the younger one was treated as more masculine, so she began to act masculine, then she was mistreated for that. Now both girls have been so warped in their thinking about what it means to be pretty, the younger one became a lesbian and the older one became a drug addict.

The younger one never expressed sexuality before, but she was pushed into it by her mother who continually provoked into her the idea that she could never be a pretty girl like her sister so she might as well be a pretty boy.

Had the idea of an outer image never been forced onto them, had both girls been loved and treated equally, their image of themselves may be different today.

But how many times have you seen it, a girl is given a male name because her parents wanted a boy instead? That is destructive, in my opinion. It diminishes her self-worth as a girl. If a girl in our society can't be appreciated as having worth as a girl and if she is constantly bombarded with the idea that to be a girl means that your outer image must fit in with what is approved by this still male dominated society, then she either attempts to become that false image or turns away from it completely, never realizing there is worth in just being a regular girl, pretty or not.

The older one that I know also suffered from Anorexia because she thought that she was not as pretty as what she was being presented with. The trauma in children is very real, and if the trauma is associated with their very biology then there can be no doubt that children make decisions when they reach adulthood based on that trauma.

I say, love little boys as little boys and little girls as little girls. Never compare them to each other as having more worth than another.

My Personal feelings are that it's due to chromosomal damage same as with all the cases of ADHD OCD and schizophrenia which are becoming so prevalent. There's a huge amount of toxicity, and I think these types of things become more regular as more of the pharmaceuticals and chemicals build up in the environment.

I don't blame the peop,e who suffer from these things at all but I don't think it's right to treat it as normal, the causes of such thing should be investigated.

a reply to: WarminIndy

I say, love little boys as little boys and little girls as little girls. Never compare them to each other as having more worth than another.

And there it is. That says it all.

Love sees the heart -- not the shell. Love is the greatest equalizer.

originally posted by: nemonimity
My Personal feelings are that it's due to chromosomal damage same as with all the cases of ADHD OCD and schizophrenia which are becoming so prevalent. There's a huge amount of toxicity, and I think these types of things become more regular as more of the pharmaceuticals and chemicals build up in the environment.

I don't blame the peop,e who suffer from these things at all but I don't think it's right to treat it as normal, the causes of such thing should be investigated.

Chromosomal damage?

Do you mean mutations in the chromosome? There are many unknown factors as to why there are mutations on the chromosomes. But Bruce Jenner's chromosomes still have Y. That makes him biologically male.

See, this is how biology works, the genotype is expressed in the phenotype. Bruce Jenner was born genotypically male, therefore he looked phenotypically male. If your genotype determines that you have blue eyes, then the phenotype is blue eyes.

There may be many reasons, environmental or whatever, but if one goes by the model of random mutations that determine evolution, then Bruce Jenner is an evolved male. Living with the Kardashians might have been environmental...maybe? Or it could just be psychological. Cutting his thingy off will never change the fact that he will die with the Y chromosome.

In 2,000 years when someone finds his skeleton, they will look at his skull shape, his pelvis and his other masculine features and say he was a male.

Morphologically, biologically, genotypically and phenotypically, he is male.

a reply to: Astrocyte

We can talk about this till the end of time and not come to a conclusion.

The truth is that the mind transcends gender which is why some people undergo gender realignment but the reasons behind those decisions could remain elusive. My relative Dr. Cake (an actual psychologist) would analyze this and provide extra analyses and extrapolations till the cows come home but would struggle to explain what makes us who we are.

"Chemical imbalances" and "nature vs. nurture" are thrown up all the time but the issue of personality is never discussed because their origins elude the greatest of minds. If the dude wants to look like a woman then that is his choice.

He's "transjennered." That's right I made a sniglet.

Face it, if you were a male living with the Kardashians, you'd probably turn gay too at some point.

Here's an interesting read

''Brain ‘gender’ is more fluid than originally thought, research reveals''

www.sciencealert.com...

originally posted by: openminded2011
a reply to: Astrocyte

I think this has something to do with the way the brain is hard wired at an early age. Between the age of 1 and 18, your brain is growing by leaps and bounds, the synapses are connecting themselves a certain way based on stimulus and environment. I think in some people their external environment somehow can wire a male brain to think its female. Maybe Jenner had a strong maternal parent but not so strong or present male influences, and this affected his self perception. So he grows up thinking he is female because thats the personna that was imprinted on him during development. That being said, IMHO if we are born into a male body we are meant to be male. But I am not someone going through this so I dont think anyone can understand it if they arent in those shoes. The conflict that arises from thinking you are female in a male body must be horrendous. But I question if this is something I would want to share with the entire world if I was going through it. I dont understand why people have to put all their innermost secrets on display these days.

Try again. Jenner's father was very present in his life and taught him football and was there to help him train for the Olympics. He idolizes his father. During the ABC interview, he was torn as to what his father might think of him now, (since deceased). He'd like to think no matter what his father would still love him, as his mother does. Jenner was very into sports as a child, and even transitioning into a woman, he said he would still be into sports and joked Kim called him a Tomboy.

What happens is during fetal development all fetuses are girls. Between 8 and 24 weeks of development the fetus is flooded with hormones to determine if the fetus will stay a girl or become a boy. This has to be timed perfectly. If the timing is off, the brain can get too little of the male hormone while the body gets the right amount, leaving the child feeling like a boy trapped in a girl's body while growing up. Autopsies done on transgendered male to female bodies have shown that the brain is larger like that of a female brain, and not of a male brain.

originally posted by: Darkblade71
As long as he/she is happy, then more power to him/her.

It was interesting watching his/her CNN interview the other day.
I've always been of the opinion that if it doesn't harm anyone,then a person should be free to be whatever they want, and if they want to be a woman instead of a guy, and they have the money, then go for it.
I'll watch the change with amused interest,
forming my own weird questions in my mind that will never be asked,
(Although I really do wonder what his new name will be, hope it is not something like Cinnamon, it is probably out there somewhere already but I have not seen it yet)
and then be happy that someone was able to be happy.

I really do find it interesting that a person can change physically from one gender to another now.
That is just amazing and kind of weird, but kind of cool.

As long as he is being him/herself,
I say way to go!

I believe until the change is fully complete, you still refer to Bruce, as He. Once he has fully transitioned and has changed his name, then he will be referred to as she. At least that is what I've learned.

originally posted by: yourignoranceisbliss

originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: Astrocyte

Who cares he aint harming anyone.
Live and let live.

In reality, that's not correct. By contributing to the consensus that re-defines "normal" into something that can be potentially devastating for the minds of the youth, he is in essence harming people who had not otherwise heard of transgender people.

For emphasis:

Alarmingly high suicide rates among transgenders

Encouraging people by entertaining delusions that you can be whatever you want to be, ultimately leads to rejection by society, confusion about who and what a person really is, and depression leading to suicide, particularly if a permanent decision is made to undergo an irreversible operation.

Political correctness prevents one from calling it what it is, a mental illness.

As of 2012, the APA no longer refers to transgenderism as a mental illness, please see my post a few posts back.

originally posted by: Blackmarketeer
He's "transjennered." That's right I made a sniglet.

Face it, if you were a male living with the Kardashians, you'd probably turn gay too at some point.

And it was a funny sniglet.

OK Billy Jean King and Martina Navratilova both prove women athletes don't feel the need to become male, even if they acted like males.

I think this might be relevant..

Testosterone and estrogen are actually very closely related in the body. A look at their chemical structure reveals only subtle differences. Yet, the differences of the effects of these two hormones on the body are substantial. Testosterone affects nearly every cell in the male body. It improves muscle mass and bone density and will also have a positive affect on the heart, brain and blood vessels. Estrogen is actually made from the circulating testosterone in the body by an enzyme called aromatase. As men age, they tend to make increasing levels of estrogen with decreased production of testosterone. Estrogen can be made in the liver, muscle and brain, as well as the fat cells. This is actually where much of the concern lies. As obesity rates go up in this country and around the world, the production of estrogen will also increase from the fat cells. This is a bad combination of decreasing testosterone and increasing estrogen.

Let's say that he has been surrounded by very high levels of estrogen and as he gets older his testosterone levels drop, then he might just be turning feminine.

There is a strange phenomenon among women, when women live in the same home, whether related or not, their menstrual cycles correlate so they actually have them at the same time.

If he has been surrounded by these highly saturated estrogen levels, maybe his body is responding to the pheromones, and he doesn't have enough testosterone to counter balance it.

But if this is a cause, then it would have to be observed in other males.

I can imagine how it is in women's prisons, all those ladies getting PMS at the same time.

originally posted by: Anyafaj

originally posted by: Darkblade71
As long as he/she is happy, then more power to him/her.

It was interesting watching his/her CNN interview the other day.
I've always been of the opinion that if it doesn't harm anyone,then a person should be free to be whatever they want, and if they want to be a woman instead of a guy, and they have the money, then go for it.
I'll watch the change with amused interest,
forming my own weird questions in my mind that will never be asked,
(Although I really do wonder what his new name will be, hope it is not something like Cinnamon, it is probably out there somewhere already but I have not seen it yet)
and then be happy that someone was able to be happy.

I really do find it interesting that a person can change physically from one gender to another now.
That is just amazing and kind of weird, but kind of cool.

As long as he is being him/herself,
I say way to go!

I believe until the change is fully complete, you still refer to Bruce, as He. Once he has fully transitioned and has changed his name, then he will be referred to as she. At least that is what I've learned.

He will still be he.

As long as there is that Y chromosome, he will be male, regardless of how he looks on the outside. I think you guys are stuck on the outer and not the inner.

Inside, he is male and always will be.

a reply to: WarminIndy

Inside, he is male and always will be.

When he did his interview that was something that I did find kind of strange. He says he is female inside,
and that he is not gay, but that he loves women, and that part just didn't seem to jive with what all he was doing.

Maybe he is not confused about it, but it did make me wonder if he was.

originally posted by: Darkblade71
a reply to: WarminIndy

Inside, he is male and always will be.

When he did his interview that was something that I did find kind of strange. He says he is female inside,
and that he is not gay, but that he loves women, and that part just didn't seem to jive with what all he was doing.

Maybe he is not confused about it, but it did make me wonder if he was.

I think on the sexual relationship part he is confused and is still sorting things out there, as for whether he wants to go through with this, I saw someone who was definitely sure about this.

originally posted by: Darkblade71
a reply to: WarminIndy

Inside, he is male and always will be.

When he did his interview that was something that I did find kind of strange. He says he is female inside,
and that he is not gay, but that he loves women, and that part just didn't seem to jive with what all he was doing.

Maybe he is not confused about it, but it did make me wonder if he was.

If he loves women and becomes a woman, then that would make him gay...right?

Isn't that way gay means?

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: Darkblade71
a reply to: WarminIndy

Inside, he is male and always will be.

When he did his interview that was something that I did find kind of strange. He says he is female inside,
and that he is not gay, but that he loves women, and that part just didn't seem to jive with what all he was doing.

Maybe he is not confused about it, but it did make me wonder if he was.

If he loves women and becomes a woman, then that would make him gay...right?

Isn't that way gay means?

Most likely, but I think he's still confused there, and that is where his therapy comes in. It will help him walk through this and help clear up any confusion. And it's perfectly ok if that is the way he wishes to go.

originally posted by: Anyafaj

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: Darkblade71
a reply to: WarminIndy

Inside, he is male and always will be.

When he did his interview that was something that I did find kind of strange. He says he is female inside,
and that he is not gay, but that he loves women, and that part just didn't seem to jive with what all he was doing.

Maybe he is not confused about it, but it did make me wonder if he was.

If he loves women and becomes a woman, then that would make him gay...right?

Isn't that way gay means?

Most likely, but I think he's still confused there, and that is where his therapy comes in. It will help him walk through this and help clear up any confusion. And it's perfectly ok if that is the way he wishes to go.

So the therapist is the one who will give him the idea that he is not confused?

I don't think he is confused, he is a 65 year-old man. If he hasn't learned by now then there's no hope for him.