Bruce Jenner and the "Transgender"

originally posted by: Astrocyte
from the masculine body and athletic interests of the swimmer (who Bruce Jenner was) to the compassionate, empathic and caring nurturer (who Bruce Jenner experiences himself as being.

Bruce Jenner was not a swimmer. He won the gold medal in the men's decathlon in 1976.

originally posted by: WarminIndy


So the therapist is the one who will give him the idea that he is not confused?

I don't think he is confused, he is a 65 year-old man. If he hasn't learned by now then there's no hope for him.

The therapist did NOT give him the idea that he's not confused. The idea of therapy is to be sure that changing genders is what you REALLY want to do. If the therapist sees ANY hesitation whatsoever, they will tell the surgeon and the surgeon will not perform the operation. The therapist will help clear up his confusion over his sexuality and whether still liking women as a woman would be considered gay or not gay. That is what I meant. Please don't take things out of context.

originally posted by: WarminIndy


When he did his interview that was something that I did find kind of strange. He says he is female inside,
and that he is not gay, but that he loves women, and that part just didn't seem to jive with what all he was doing.

If he loves women and becomes a woman, then that would make him gay...right?

If he loves *women* and he has the operation to become like one, he
will cease to be of interest to a *woman* who is not a lesbian? so wont
that defeat the purpose of changing his body?

What surprises me is that he has spent 65 years as a man ... that is most
of the life span of a human, so in effect he will only have roughly 15yrs
(if he's lucky) as a woman and well past his prime at that!!
I hope he'll find it worth it .....

I have seen some programmes where the operation has been done and
the subject has been interviewed, before, during and after. and if I'm
honest I have to say, that they have all mostly ended up looking like
'men in drag' sounding masculine, and not emulating a feminine stance.
Not really very convincing as women.

Having said all that I suppose its down to "whatever floats their boat"

originally posted by: WarminIndy
See, this is how biology works, the genotype is expressed in the phenotype. Bruce Jenner was born genotypically male, therefore he looked phenotypically male. If your genotype determines that you have blue eyes, then the phenotype is blue eyes.

A person can have both XX and XY chromosomes simultaneously. I don't believe nature has as much interest in gender determinism as most of the people in this thread seem to think.

What's harder to believe? That nature saw that there were two genders and it was good? (See what I did there?) Or that sometimes, for whatever reason, people are born messed up?

originally posted by: Pinke

originally posted by: WarminIndy
See, this is how biology works, the genotype is expressed in the phenotype. Bruce Jenner was born genotypically male, therefore he looked phenotypically male. If your genotype determines that you have blue eyes, then the phenotype is blue eyes.

A person can have both XX and XY chromosomes simultaneously. I don't believe nature has as much interest in gender determinism as most of the people in this thread seem to think.

What's harder to believe? That nature saw that there were two genders and it was good? (See what I did there?) Or that sometimes, for whatever reason, people are born messed up?

Yes, the hermaphrodites...which would have been known in his Olympic days as they had to prove they were either male or female, especially the women had to prove it.

Gender Testing at Olympics

Aiming to create a fair competition, the IOC has introduced gender testing of some form since 1968, primarily to prevent men from competing in the women's events. As they have discovered over time, there is not always a clear boundary between the two. Gender testing was first introduced at the Olympics in 1968, for the Winter Games in Grenoble. These tests were compulsory for female athletes, possibly due to fears that male athletes would pose as female athletes and have an unfair advantage over their competitors. However, most cases of men competing as females have been unintentional.

Bruce Jenner would have been gender tested for the Olympics, albeit not compulsory, but there was scandal so I imagine the US would have made darn sure we got our athletes right.

As his events were male only, meaning that to qualify, he had to submit a genetics test in order to compete in a male event.

He says he felt like a woman at the Olympics, then I would imagine he was tested. And if he felt like a woman, then he probably should give his medals back, because inwardly he would have been competing as a woman, if that is what he really felt.

If he believed himself as a woman, then give the medals back. The women had to do gender testing to prove they were not males, so what makes him more special than them?

BTW, men also tested.

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: Pinke

originally posted by: WarminIndy
See, this is how biology works, the genotype is expressed in the phenotype. Bruce Jenner was born genotypically male, therefore he looked phenotypically male. If your genotype determines that you have blue eyes, then the phenotype is blue eyes.

A person can have both XX and XY chromosomes simultaneously. I don't believe nature has as much interest in gender determinism as most of the people in this thread seem to think.

What's harder to believe? That nature saw that there were two genders and it was good? (See what I did there?) Or that sometimes, for whatever reason, people are born messed up?

Yes, the hermaphrodites...which would have been known in his Olympic days as they had to prove they were either male or female, especially the women had to prove it.

No, a person can actually be completely unaware of being intersexed, and whether or not you're allowed to compete would vary based on which decade you entered the olympics. Someone with AIS would be allowed to enter one decade and not the next.

Jenner being allowed to compete in the Olympics really says nothing about gender, physical, psychological or otherwise. Over the decades we've actually been incapable of detecting some gender differences.

Nothing in these Regulations is intended to make any determination of sex. Instead, these Regulations are designed to identify circumstances in which a particular athlete will not be eligible (by reason of hormonal characteristics) to participate

From here: www.olympic.org...

The above is less to do with political correctness and more to do with the Olympics getting things wrong time and time again. Is from 2012.

The term hermaphrodite isn't really used much in this context any more. True hermaphrodites are so rare as to make it a misleading term.

originally posted by: Pinke

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: Pinke

originally posted by: WarminIndy
See, this is how biology works, the genotype is expressed in the phenotype. Bruce Jenner was born genotypically male, therefore he looked phenotypically male. If your genotype determines that you have blue eyes, then the phenotype is blue eyes.

A person can have both XX and XY chromosomes simultaneously. I don't believe nature has as much interest in gender determinism as most of the people in this thread seem to think.

What's harder to believe? That nature saw that there were two genders and it was good? (See what I did there?) Or that sometimes, for whatever reason, people are born messed up?

Yes, the hermaphrodites...which would have been known in his Olympic days as they had to prove they were either male or female, especially the women had to prove it.

No, a person can actually be completely unaware of being intersexed, and whether or not you're allowed to compete would vary based on which decade you entered the olympics. Someone with AIS would be allowed to enter one decade and not the next.

Jenner being allowed to compete in the Olympics really says nothing about gender, physical, psychological or otherwise. Over the decades we've actually been incapable of detecting some gender differences.

Nothing in these Regulations is intended to make any determination of sex. Instead, these Regulations are designed to identify circumstances in which a particular athlete will not be eligible (by reason of hormonal characteristics) to participate

From here: www.olympic.org...

The above is less to do with political correctness and more to do with the Olympics getting things wrong time and time again. Is from 2012.

The term hermaphrodite isn't really used much in this context any more. True hermaphrodites are so rare as to make it a misleading term.

My mom has a cousin who is hermaphrodite. That is why I use the word, because of my relative. But is this a matter of integrity? If he felt like a woman, give the medals back. Ethics, ethics....

If he is so ethical and has a lot of integrity, then do the right thing, give the medals back. Funny thing though, he met his wife Linda Thompson at the Playboy Mansion where he was living.....

Seems the man loves a lot of women.

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: Pinke

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: Pinke

originally posted by: WarminIndy
See, this is how biology works, the genotype is expressed in the phenotype. Bruce Jenner was born genotypically male, therefore he looked phenotypically male. If your genotype determines that you have blue eyes, then the phenotype is blue eyes.

A person can have both XX and XY chromosomes simultaneously. I don't believe nature has as much interest in gender determinism as most of the people in this thread seem to think.

What's harder to believe? That nature saw that there were two genders and it was good? (See what I did there?) Or that sometimes, for whatever reason, people are born messed up?

Yes, the hermaphrodites...which would have been known in his Olympic days as they had to prove they were either male or female, especially the women had to prove it.

No, a person can actually be completely unaware of being intersexed, and whether or not you're allowed to compete would vary based on which decade you entered the olympics. Someone with AIS would be allowed to enter one decade and not the next.

Jenner being allowed to compete in the Olympics really says nothing about gender, physical, psychological or otherwise. Over the decades we've actually been incapable of detecting some gender differences.

Nothing in these Regulations is intended to make any determination of sex. Instead, these Regulations are designed to identify circumstances in which a particular athlete will not be eligible (by reason of hormonal characteristics) to participate

From here: www.olympic.org...

The above is less to do with political correctness and more to do with the Olympics getting things wrong time and time again. Is from 2012.

The term hermaphrodite isn't really used much in this context any more. True hermaphrodites are so rare as to make it a misleading term.

My mom has a cousin who is hermaphrodite. That is why I use the word, because of my relative. But is this a matter of integrity? If he felt like a woman, give the medals back. Ethics, ethics....

If he is so ethical and has a lot of integrity, then do the right thing, give the medals back. Funny thing though, he met his wife Linda Thompson at the Playboy Mansion where he was living.....

Seems the man loves a lot of women.

He competed as a man, whether he felt like a woman or not, he competed AS a man, he won fair and square, there's no need to give the medals back. You claim after he has the surgery he will STILL be a man. You can't have it both ways. here you say he's a woman and needs to return his medals, earlier you say once he has his surgery to become a woman, he will still be a man. Which is it? Can't have it both ways. So are you now admitting he will be a woman?

originally posted by: Anyafaj

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: Pinke

originally posted by: WarminIndy

originally posted by: Pinke

originally posted by: WarminIndy
See, this is how biology works, the genotype is expressed in the phenotype. Bruce Jenner was born genotypically male, therefore he looked phenotypically male. If your genotype determines that you have blue eyes, then the phenotype is blue eyes.

A person can have both XX and XY chromosomes simultaneously. I don't believe nature has as much interest in gender determinism as most of the people in this thread seem to think.

What's harder to believe? That nature saw that there were two genders and it was good? (See what I did there?) Or that sometimes, for whatever reason, people are born messed up?

Yes, the hermaphrodites...which would have been known in his Olympic days as they had to prove they were either male or female, especially the women had to prove it.

No, a person can actually be completely unaware of being intersexed, and whether or not you're allowed to compete would vary based on which decade you entered the olympics. Someone with AIS would be allowed to enter one decade and not the next.

Jenner being allowed to compete in the Olympics really says nothing about gender, physical, psychological or otherwise. Over the decades we've actually been incapable of detecting some gender differences.

Nothing in these Regulations is intended to make any determination of sex. Instead, these Regulations are designed to identify circumstances in which a particular athlete will not be eligible (by reason of hormonal characteristics) to participate

From here: www.olympic.org...

The above is less to do with political correctness and more to do with the Olympics getting things wrong time and time again. Is from 2012.

The term hermaphrodite isn't really used much in this context any more. True hermaphrodites are so rare as to make it a misleading term.

My mom has a cousin who is hermaphrodite. That is why I use the word, because of my relative. But is this a matter of integrity? If he felt like a woman, give the medals back. Ethics, ethics....

If he is so ethical and has a lot of integrity, then do the right thing, give the medals back. Funny thing though, he met his wife Linda Thompson at the Playboy Mansion where he was living.....

Seems the man loves a lot of women.

He competed as a man, whether he felt like a woman or not, he competed AS a man, he won fair and square, there's no need to give the medals back. You claim after he has the surgery he will STILL be a man. You can't have it both ways. here you say he's a woman and needs to return his medals, earlier you say once he has his surgery to become a woman, he will still be a man. Which is it? Can't have it both ways. So are you now admitting he will be a woman?

I am saying what HE said to Diane Sawyer. HE said that at the Olympics he felt like a woman.

If he felt like a woman, but competed as a man, then he was was intrinsically competing as a woman. So therefore he must have not been honest at the Olympics, to his wives, to his girlfriends, to the public, to all the other athletes.

Shouldn't we be about honesty? HE said HE felt like a woman. When he stood up there and took his medals, in a men's event, he felt like a woman.

Was he not honest with himself? Integrity, that is what he should have. I do not see him with any integrity, therefore he should give them back. He should have never competed as a man if he felt he was a woman, that was unfair to the other athletes, especially the women athletes who were subjected to greater genetics testing than he was.

If he says "there she is" referring to himself when showing the picture, then he needs to make it right with every woman Olympian that year.

originally posted by: WarminIndy
My mom has a cousin who is hermaphrodite. That is why I use the word, because of my relative.

The term is still misleading in our context, but okay.

But is this a matter of integrity? If he felt like a woman, give the medals back. Ethics, ethics....

If he is so ethical and has a lot of integrity, then do the right thing, give the medals back. Funny thing though, he met his wife Linda Thompson at the Playboy Mansion where he was living.....

Seems the man loves a lot of women.

1. I wasn't aware we were just carrying out a grudge against Jenner?
2. There is a male hammer thrower who competes in the Olympic hammer throwing for Poland. The person is FTM. Olympics does what it does for fairness, not for any other reason. They are not a gender registrar.
3. Who cares where the person met their partner? Sexuality and gender are often considered separate. I'm not sure why they would factor in here.

originally posted by: WarminIndy

I am saying what HE said to Diane Sawyer. HE said that at the Olympics he felt like a woman.

If he felt like a woman, but competed as a man, then he was was intrinsically competing as a woman. So therefore he must have not been honest at the Olympics, to his wives, to his girlfriends, to the public, to all the other athletes.

Shouldn't we be about honesty? HE said HE felt like a woman. When he stood up there and took his medals, in a men's event, he felt like a woman.

Was he not honest with himself? Integrity, that is what he should have. I do not see him with any integrity, therefore he should give them back. He should have never competed as a man if he felt he was a woman, that was unfair to the other athletes, especially the women athletes who were subjected to greater genetics testing than he was.

If he says "there she is" referring to himself when showing the picture, then he needs to make it right with every woman Olympian that year.

Whether or not he felt he was a woman internally, externally, he was still a HE, therefore HE followed the rules whether you like it or not. The medals are good and valid. He was NOT taking female hormones at the time, he was, at the time, to all purposes, male. He have felt woman internally, but he was MALE. If he was taking hormone therapy at the time, which he was not, then I could see the argument.

originally posted by: Anyafaj

originally posted by: WarminIndy

I am saying what HE said to Diane Sawyer. HE said that at the Olympics he felt like a woman.

If he felt like a woman, but competed as a man, then he was was intrinsically competing as a woman. So therefore he must have not been honest at the Olympics, to his wives, to his girlfriends, to the public, to all the other athletes.

Shouldn't we be about honesty? HE said HE felt like a woman. When he stood up there and took his medals, in a men's event, he felt like a woman.

Was he not honest with himself? Integrity, that is what he should have. I do not see him with any integrity, therefore he should give them back. He should have never competed as a man if he felt he was a woman, that was unfair to the other athletes, especially the women athletes who were subjected to greater genetics testing than he was.

If he says "there she is" referring to himself when showing the picture, then he needs to make it right with every woman Olympian that year.

Whether or not he felt he was a woman internally, externally, he was still a HE, therefore HE followed the rules whether you like it or not. The medals are good and valid. He was NOT taking female hormones at the time, he was, at the time, to all purposes, male. He have felt woman internally, but he was MALE. If he was taking hormone therapy at the time, which he was not, then I could see the argument.

Well then, he should not have said "she" in the interview with Diane Sawyer.

Either he is a he or she is a she, it can't be both now.

originally posted by: WarminIndy



Well then, he should not have said "she" in the interview with Diane Sawyer.


Either he is a he or she is a she, it can't be both now.

He said what he said, because to him, internally, not externally, he FELT female, but externally and hormonally, at the time, he was all male. HIs body was male, his hormones were male, but his brain was female. Since fetal development his brain has been female. He may or may not have tried to fight it now and then, but body wise he was male, brain wise he was female.

I posted a few links regarding this a few pages back, I believe page 2 or 3. You are welcome to read them.

Im about equally boggled by the people in this thread talking down about Bruce Jenner, as I am by Bruce's choice.

I can tell you this though, Id rather have a beer (or Cosmo) with Jenner than any of you people here who think you know what normal is or call transgenders dangerous to society. 

originally posted by: Anyafaj
He said what he said, because to him, internally, not externally, he FELT female, but externally and hormonally, at the time, he was all male. HIs body was male, his hormones were male, but his brain was female. Since fetal development his brain has been female. He may or may not have tried to fight it now and then, but body wise he was male, brain wise he was female.

He *FELT* female .... that has to be a wild assumption on his part, as

being all male at the time >>>>

* his body was male

* his hormones were male

* his brain was female That requires proof .... after all some men have

'feminine' and less 'masculine' traits and some women have 'masculine' and less

'feminine' traits. eg. As a 'feminine' woman I have been told I drive like a man! lol!!


A man can empathise with how a woman may feel ... but not having the

basics of what makes a female, his views are pure guesswork, conjecture and

assumptions.

originally posted by: boymonkey74
a reply to: Astrocyte

Who cares he aint harming anyone.
Live and let live.

right. useless thread! your opinions should stay off the internet.

As a transgender female I feel depressed by this thread...

There are animals in the wild that have been known to change gender either naturally or otherwise. So maybe, it's not that bizarre? Of course, it's for varying reasons and probably survival of the species. But it happens.

However anyone feels regarding the topic of transgender people, you have to sympathise. And not in a patronising way, just understand the struggle they go through.

I have no idea if Bruce Jenner is really a "female soul" because none of us really know everything there is to now about our bodies, our being and our "soul" - It's all a confusing mess and I guess transgenders try and make the best of what they have.

Am I 100% comfortable with it? No. I'm going to be 100% honest, I'm not. A part of me believes transgenderism wouldn't exist if humanity was more accepting and loving. If we accepted "women" and "men" who claim to be "different" those who class themselves as "transgender" wouldn't feel the need to change. It's humanity that can only accept women are women and men are men... that's the reason, I believe, transgender people have a struggle and need to change in to the gender they feel they "should" be.

I don't know, I'm no expert on the issue by a long shot. I hope he finds happiness, wherever this takes him.

a reply to: WarminIndy

No Chromosomal damage is what I meant, there's a huge number of chemicals that adversely effect sex assignment on the cellular level and damaged the chromosomes ability to replicate leaving it in a broken state. There's a difference between mutation and damage. Atrazine a chemical used in pesticides, causes animals to switch gender or males to not fully develop into sexual maturity due to damage on the y chromosome inhibiting it's ability to copy. It damages the male chromosome leaving the x chromosome to make up as best it can.
Morphologically, biologically and genetically, you cannot say whether he is male, we'd need to see the breakdown of his genome in order to be sure. All life comes down to walking chemical reactions. Our DNA changes over the course of our lives and constant bombardment of out side chemicals can cause things like gender reassignment as well as things like autism, degenerative neurological disorders and sexual amorphism.

We don't know what chemicals have been in his brain, or what kind of changes his genome has went through since inception. Study is needed not abject terror at such things.

originally posted by: caladonea
I really don't truly understand (as yet) why Bruce Jenner at 65 years old is making this choice in his life; I am trying to understand...but (as of right now)...I just don't get it.

Think publicity stunt, and all the profit and attention that has and will come from such an obviously orchestrated and carefully planned scam.

Old Bruce got his interview with Diane Sawyer, and surprise surprise, he's getting his own reality TV show that will focus solely on his gender change.

Don't forget to pre-order the future book! LMAO! You could not make this stuff up. Oh wait, in a Country full of clueless imbeciles, you can! ~$heopleNation