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Bruce Jenner and the "Transgender"

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posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 09:31 PM
a reply to: Answer

Agreed ! My wife was watching that Jenner special last night and asked if I wanted to watch it, my answer was that I can care less . If (s)he's happy transitioning into a woman good for him...ummm...her(?) , but it effects me not in the slightest . I guess , though , it would give the average person who is watching Jenner go through this the courage they need to do the same .

Actually I would be the type many progressives would (and do! without even knowing me) accuse of being a bigoted redneck simply for where I live (Ky) , my political affiliation(Republican) and simply being VERY country ( not a reneck , big difference) . But I honestly do not care if someone is gay , straight , transgendered , black , white , brown , male , female etc; etc; .

edit on 25-4-2015 by Stonecutter45 because: (no reason given)

posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 09:31 PM
a reply to: MystikMushroom

I for one don't care what Jenner does, as long as he's not harming another person. If being a woman fulfills something in his life he feels is missing -- good for him.

I'm sensing people do not understand what the issue is here.

Can you tell me what the difference is between anxiety about the body, such as in anorexia and bulimia, and anxiety about gender? I do not mean, of course, that one can lead to the death by starvation whereas the other can lead to death by suicide; rather, I mean, what makes either of these situations fundamentally different from one another?

To my mind, as a psychotherapist, they are both mental disorders. They are both born from anxiety about something about the self. They both find their origin in some relational condition; for instance, in anorexia/bulimia the person in question will need to a) be exposed to a cultural or social norm that favors a certain body type b) feel inadequate in comparison. The etiology, or movement begins when the mind becomes more and more depressingly focused on an 'ideal', or an "image" of what it wants, and ruthlessly feeds this concept back on itself, until, eventually, the perception of the body becomes "dysmorphed" by the prolonged influence of anxiety/depression in its conception of its body.

Now lets analyze the case of gender identity disorder. The person in question, in its early life, is exposed to a particular relational environment (just as in the previous case). In this case, the environment in question presents the sex the person is born into (boy or girl) as 'negative' in some way. The object-relations are more subtle here as society doesn't fundamentally make one sex more or less appealing (though in earlier times one would be remiss to ignore how many women dressed up as men to get respect); but this nevertheless is besides the point. An abusive father, or brother, or another male, and a weakened and passive mother, sister, or some other female, will create associations that engender identifications and repudiations of certain self-states.

Self-state theory, or the idea of us having multiple selves, is quite simple. As written in the original post, the mind is really only "aware" for half a second at most, basically for a full electric cycle (as recorded by an EEG). This means experiences are not 'continuous' but discontinuous.

The logic of how we come to experience ourselves has to do with how the human mind responds to pain, suffering and pleasure. Certain affects, like fear, anxiety, depression and shame (basically "negative affects") structure how we come to perceive and think about the world. On the other hand, positive emotions promote the types of experiences/objects associated with the feelings. In this way, relational experiences condition our self-understanding of the world.

I cannot speak to the history that underlies Bruce Jenners belief that he is "truly a woman" or has a "female brain". What I do know, however, is how often, nay, predictably, people who experience strange emotions come to experience themselves SOLELY FROM THE VANTAGE POINT of that emotion. This is what I wrote earlier about the jump people make from experience to ontology.

The human mind situates its experience not as a process subject to contextual constraints, but as a 'thing'; "I'm a woman at heart" is such an assertion, as the mind is neither feminine or masculine, as most, normal and healthy men and women actually experience themselves as having BOTH masculine AND feminine qualities.

So the question, ultimately, is about the thoughts such a person has about their body. What makes this any different from anorexia nervosa? In both cases, you simply have a mind obsessed and traumatically disposed to view its body in a morbid and damaged way. The identifications in the former are easier to make out because society is wantonly careless about the body-types they prefer. But given what the psychotherapeutic literature suggests about the role of personal history in people who want to undergo sex-change operations, the primary factor appears to be negative meanings associated with their gender, and an idealism towards the other.

So to answer your question 'what harm does this cause"? The harm is the influence of the belief. As psychologists have long said, emotions are contagious. Any person who experiences himself as "in the wrong body" could then be thought of as LITERALLY, as in, ONTOLOGICALLY, being born into the wrong body. The movement from an anxious and paranoid thought (which anyone with stress regulation difficulties could experience) about gender would promote a "jump" to a decision to change gender.

If you do not see how problematic this is, then you don't understand whats at stake.

Whats at stake is a correct understanding of the phenomenology of human experience; not getting caught up in paranoid thoughts about self/body/gender and not getting pulled into drastic "solutions" that conform more to the quick-fix ethos of capitalism/consumerism than the self-awareness needed for a better society.

posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 09:31 PM
edit on 25-4-2015 by Astrocyte because: (no reason given)

posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 09:44 PM
a reply to: Spiramirabilis

How consumerism disturbs the mind? WTH?

You're going to have to write more than that.

Says you...can you prove it's a myth? If it is a myth - what's your beef with capitalism or consumerism?

You'll need to read the neuroscience literature for that understanding. Check out Damasio, Ledoux or Feinberg for how split-brain people show how the mind is 'split'; how things can be known without our actually knowing. The experimental psychology literature, most eminently, the work of Daniel Kahneman, has shown how our thinking is oftentimes 'primed' by our exposure to contextual stimuli.

And mostly, psychoanalysis, and most glaringly, the phenomena of dissociative identity disorder, shows how experiences can be "blocked" from our own awareness.

Even conditions like hearing voices show how other parts of ourselves can "split away" and enter consciousness outside of our volition. We know, also, that these 'parts' represent voices because voice-hearing is oftentimes a symptom of early-life relational trauma. And the only way to resolve these 'voices' is to develop a compassionate relationship with them; that is, its only when you acknowledge the voice as a PART of you, that the voices quiet down and speak more kindly.

If it's a myth - I say Jenner get's to pick his own version of reality - it's as legitimate as anything else

umm, no it isn't. There is such a thing called objective reality. It's not a given. It takes analysis/study and reason to discover.

posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 10:10 PM
I don't care what he does frankly and have no idea how he really feels inside but I'm not into the public spectacle part.

I watched the interview and to me he didn't seem to be taking it seriously, like it was a big joke to him. Or he was masking deep pain. He was acting very feminine but didn't sit like a lady with one leg cocked open how it was. Perhaps he needs some lessons on that. So I wasn't really buying he had a woman stuck inside his body.

I don't think it's a publicity stunt, he seems just very confused. Very unsure of what he's about to do. Maybe that's 'normal' I don't know.

posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 10:13 PM
I never even watch the Kardashions, who the heck are they anyways? I only know Bruce from his Olympic fearts

posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 11:00 PM
a reply to: Astrocyte Bruce is a sick puppy. Surely he is very depressed. Like the fruit loop cover. After the transition i expect him to join robin wiliams in a year or two.

edit on 25-4-2015 by PsychicCroMag because: used wrong spelling for two

posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 11:01 PM
originally posted by: Astrocyte
a reply to: Anyafaj

To my mind, the best evidence comes from the clinical sphere, and again and again, people who have contemplated "sex-change" have changed their minds after considering the conflicts they've internalized in their early life relationships.

Imagine for a second what kind of results can be generated from studies that do not take into account the RELATIONAL events of these children in question? The therapeutic literature strongly suggests that the idea of being "in the wrong body" is born of early object relational meanings.

How this element is ignored and not considered - when it is the bread and butter of psychological development - will always lead to naive and false conclusions about development.

I can see you're knowledgeable of this subject, so I suggest you read Adrienne Harris "Gender As Soft Assembly".

Believe it or not, I'm only knowledgeable to the point of what I've been able to find online and educate myself with. I have a curious mind. I used to take night college classes with my father when I was between 8-11 years old to prevent boredom. Needless to say I was far ahead of my class when I was growing up and come college time got a 4.0 in Biology and Human Development in labs. It's a subject that has always fascinated me.

Thus far, while research does seem to indicate that there are gender differences in the anterior hypothalamus, in interstitial area 3, this area has more to do with sexual arousal than with 'identification'.

But this, again, is not quite the issue. The issue, at least as it is understood today, is how the Mind-Brain is plastic, both early on and throughout the lifespan (to a lesser extent). The biological rationale of this argument is simple: the organism needs to be PLASTIC in order to adjust itself to the environment. Unlike in plants, where there is no germ/soma divide, animals have 'nervous systems' that allow for the same type of behavioral plasticity demonstrated by plants.

Any person who has practiced mindfulness meditation can attest to the plasticity of their phenomenological experience, and thus, the plasticity of their biological brain.

Harris doesn't seem to be for or against sex-change operations - but as a feminist psychoanalyst, she is interested in deconstructing the idea of "gendered minds", and so, is interested in helping the person understand why they feel they were born into the wrong sex. Oftentimes, or I would argue, in most, if not all cases, the object-relation system of the mind has built some strong positive associations with one sex, and, conversely, negative associations with the other.

The result, overtime, is a person who almost feels "sick" living as the 'wrong' sex.

And yet there is never an error on Mother Nature's part? For example, a cow born with two faces? Or a recent one, a cow born with ten lips? A child born with two sex organs and the parents need to decide at birth if the child is going to be male or female immediately, then come to find out later the child identifies as the opposite sex that the parents chose? That has never happened, right? Mistakes are never made? Whether in nature or at birth? That's good to know, I've heard stories and I was starting to get worried.

Of course, for someone not accustomed to neuroscientific studies, it could seem like the issue is settled. It isn't. We haven't even been able to consistently identify emotional-experiences with specific neurological profiles, let alone, associate something as vague as psychological 'masculinity' and 'femininity' with global brain states.

At the most, as far as I know, the best research into male-female differences into the brain comes from Simon Levays study of the hypothalmus and its association with homosexuality.

I've already posted one good study, there are others if you care to look. So I'll refrain from argument.

Again, there is a difference between respecting his needs as a person to live a meaningful life, and his claims that transgender people are in the same category as homosexuals. But are they in the same category? Is it the same? In a sense, it is, but in another sense, it isn't.

If you watched the ABC special, they listed the murders and suicides of TRANSGENDER teens and adults. Not homosexuals. Kids like Lyla Alcorn, two kids in GA , or another Southern state, please forgive me for forgetting which state, who both killed themselves because they were transgendered and either they were bullied or their families refused to accept who they wanted to be. They just showed a Transgendered woman being arrested in Brazil (NSFW) whom they stripped topless, cut off her hair and threw in prison. There was no need for that amount of degradation. But it is happening, every day, all over the world.

Before I argued that all human experience is plastic, including sexual experience. This would mean that the epigenetic-genetic events subtending homosexual/heterosexual/bi-sexual feelings are themselves "plastic". But who speaks of this? LOL. Although this is an acceptable inference for those interested in the phenomena of neuroplasticity, present-day political-correctness wont allow a scientific exploration of this question.

Nevertheless, as mentioned earlier, the psychotherapeutic literature strongly suggests that this issue with 'gender identity' IS NOT BIOLOGICAL - as in, being generated by an irreversible genetic situation - but is as any other neurosis: built over a lifetime.

Take people deathly afraid of germs, who then "somaticize" the feeling of bugs crawling under their skin. Is this "real"? No. The brain-body connection via the vagus allows the brain to "manifest", at least at a sensorial level, what the mind is frenetically anxious about.

Gender, and, in particular, if one has felt oneself to be more naturally inclined to one 'sex', needn't mean that you are in actuality that sex. I myself, for example, have many feminine attributes. And I also believe, if my life history had occurred differently, that I could have been led to the conclusion that I too have a "female brain".

Fortunately, my education has spared me from coming to that fallacious conclusion.

I'm happy for you.

posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 11:03 PM
a reply to: Astrocyte

I agree with all you say, and would like to add why suddenly in the News and drama (last two decades) are we getting barraged by sexual alternatives, its good to be Gay etc. Girl power, et all. The female is the greatest consumer of all, so its no wonder that its all about her, they want her spending power. So its no wonder they are selling the dream, to the point that some guys think it might be better to be a female.

It might sound trite but it all comes down to chemistry, and to be more specific hormones . In the last two decades coincidentally, the milking of pregnant cows has been the norm, 80% of all milk is from pregnant cows, who's Oestrogen content is thirty times more than a non pregnant cow. This hormone among others is in the milk, cheese etc. held in the Dairy fats . Which we are consuming in greater and greater amounts, to the point where Dairy can be fifty per cent of the diet . Guys take heed, in the life of a female she produces two tablespoons of this hormone, it does its work in millionths of a gram. Not much is needed for the interesting effect of changing a guy into a girl, and having psychologically the nicer feminine traits associated with the fairer sex. The only problem is your getting a good dose whether you want to be feminised or not.

posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 11:03 PM

originally posted by: Astrocyte
a reply to: Anyafaj

Yikes! You want to turn this into an epistemological debate?

While I agree each person has a right to find their own meanings in life, the incontrovertible, psychoanalytic fact, is that experiences SHAPE the dynamics of our psychological experiences. This gives experience a very "sequential logic" to it. What we experience NOW, is related to what we experienced BEFORE.

The problem with your claim is your reification of psychological experiences into ontological facts about self. The first problem is the non-existence of any ontological "self"; the second problem is the influence cognition has upon its experiences of itself.

Oftentimes, I encounter people who say "I hate myself". And they'll then say "I am pathetic". When they mean this, they don't mean it as "At this moment, I feel pathetic". No, the unenlightened human mind goes from experience straight to ontology: I am FUNDAMENTALLY, unlikeable, detestable.

The purpose of therapy is to help the person realize the temporality of these sorts of experiences. They stand for just the moment: they do not represent the 'self' in any sense.

It's only when you LOOSEN these identifications, that neuroplastic processes can work their magic. CHANGE DOESN'T HAPPEN under distress. The anxious brain prevents the neurochemical processes that allow psychological (phenomenological) change.

Why do you keep saying this? In a free society anyone can do what they want so long as it doesn't hurt other people (even though I feel these sorts of things have an inimical psychological impact).

Whats harmful is that what Jenner is claiming is simply not true.

You DO realize, of course, that in order for Jenner to undergo reassignment he HAS to undergo MOUNDS of therapy. It's kind of a given.

posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 11:09 PM

originally posted by: JimNasium
a reply to: Anyafaj

Greetings- Do You mean "Momager Kris" the 'Mother' who shopped Her own daughter's sex tape? You mean that one? I once saw an episode where Kris' hairdresser, the one She wrote about having an affair with, that looks remarkably like Khloe, odd.. Then I saw a bit of an episode where they were in a public diner and Khloe wouldn't let Kris out of the booth they were sitting in, Kris ended up soiling Herself and all the group laughed/giggled. A couple of shows later and Kris is seeing a Dr. for Her incontinence, then She tried to work Her "ailment" into an endorsement with Depend™ adult underwear, so is Bruce's 'issue' for real or for reality t.v.?

Riddle Me this?, .... What will be 'The Grand Finale' of sex tape #2? Every time I see the show somebody is either getting peed on, they're peeing their own pants or they want to get where the pee comes out switched around, could the KonASSian Cabal take a step "up" to #2? I'd bet more folks would tune in?

How far does Bruce take it? He already has shopping down, I saw Him blow $5,800.00 on a purse/handbag/backpack, this after the cozy little shop had to open the second door for Kim to get Her caboose through it...

Rhetorical if You want it to be: What if before each Self incarnated into our Body in order to better learn the lessons our 'sexless Souls' to learn? I stand to pee (mostly) but can identify with My Yin, from where I am. Haven't We poisoned Mother Nature enough already with pollution and feeding Her (female-like a ship) bodies killed by wars and dis-ease? Now let Us try and get a curve ball by Her.. I'd wager if Bruce really wanted to be a female He could the next "go around" but what do I know? nothing, I know nothing.


Ok, Kris is a harridan, no question. But! Would you cut it off for TV? Kris is the one that wears the pants in that family. She's the strong armer. If you notice, ANY story that is told about Anyone in the family, Rob, Kylie, Khloe, anyone, Kris's name is somehow implanted for some ungodly reason.

posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 11:17 PM
a reply to: Astrocyte

If you're a psychotherapist, could you please do a medline search for some abstracts to support your claims? Surely you have some clinical studies, perhaps long term longitudinal ones that support your ideas? I wouldn't know where to start.

posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 11:30 PM
a reply to: Astrocyte

umm, no it isn't. There is such a thing called objective reality. It's not a given. It takes analysis/study and reason to discover.

I think you'd like to determine objective reality for everyone - is what I think

All your studying and analysis has helped you to arrive at a point where it's possible for you to determine that Bruce Jenner's self awareness (being all conflicted by unfettered capitalism like it is) makes his personal choices illegitimate

"Easy fixes" - which in reality are BIG and UNNECESSARY changes - come to be seen as desirable and even ethical; and on the part of others, we are expected to welcome and encourage these drastic transformations, and if we even raise an alarm, or beckon a deeper exploration at the level of psychodynamics, we risk being labelled a "bigot".

Why don't you try minding your own business - and letting other people get on with theirs?

Also - if the shoe fits...

posted on Apr, 25 2015 @ 11:34 PM

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
a reply to: Astrocyte

If you're a psychotherapist, could you please do a medline search for some abstracts to support your claims? Surely you have some clinical studies, perhaps long term longitudinal ones that support your ideas? I wouldn't know where to start.

As a psychotherapist, he would also know transgenderism is NOT considered a mental illness, as he claimed. They had a psychotherapist on the special on ABC who mentioned it is NOT a mental illness.

The APA REVISED the DSM in 2012 saying transgender was NO LONGER a mental illness. As a psychotherapist, he would have been aware of this.

posted on Apr, 26 2015 @ 12:32 AM
a reply to: Astrocyte

The jewish media is really pushing the transgender thing hard.

posted on Apr, 26 2015 @ 02:15 AM

originally posted by: combatmaster

The fact is Jenner has an X chromosome in every cell of his body, an Adam's Apple, and the musculoskeletal system of a male. The fact that someone will cut off his privates and replace it with a hole that does nothing and give him hormone shots to create fake breasts does not alter that.

God you're going to really feel frustrated once transhumanism really takes off......

This is a phenomenon made possible by modern medicine and enabled by a self-indulgent society that mistakes civil rights of people who cannot change what they are, such as race, with preferences of people who can pretend to be what they are not.

I guess you don't know that there are transgender people of color. Kinda put a lie to your idea that someone is doing this just to be "special".

By the way, transgender women of color are the ones most likely to be murdered or commit suicide. Ever wonder why?

So as you can see it's not quite as simplistic as you make it out to be.

The fact of the matter is that life is diverse. There are species on this earth which swap genders. Humans happen to be one of them and that predates hormone therapy, surgery, etc.

Study some other non-western cultures and their history with this subject. Transgenderism predates modern society in Native American, Asian, African, and other non-western cultures. Even in ancient European cultures it existed but due to things like the rise of Christianity and "pagan" histories being erased or altered it is harder to track down.

That kind of tells me its always been with us.
edit on 26-4-2015 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)

posted on Apr, 26 2015 @ 03:48 AM
Astrocyte, good write up and a great read.

On the topic of gender-reassignment, what are your insights (if you wish to share them) on the case of David Reimer, who was born male, but after a failed circumcision, was castrated, fitted with functioning girl-parts, and raised as a woman from infancy under the guidance of psychologist John Money? I'm not sure if it has much to do with Bruce Jenner, but despite the surgery, despite being raised a female during the most influential part of his life, he still identified as a male throughout, and finally got reassigned back to male in his later years.

posted on Apr, 26 2015 @ 04:08 AM
Is the obsession with gender and sexuality an American thing? Being from the UK we don't really obsess over such things.

posted on Apr, 26 2015 @ 04:25 AM

originally posted by: MystikMushroom

If it seems like transgender and homosexuals are "in your face" these days, it's probably due to the fact they just want to be accepted for who/what they are. If they were treated 100% identical to everyone else, they wouldn't be having marches and parades or whatnot. They want exposure to highlight the fact that they are discriminated against and not treated as other human beings.

I think in the decades to come, we will see the LGBT less "in your face" as the world's population comes to terms with the fact that these are people, not monsters. They want the same things out of life that all of us do.

The best way to be excepted for who or what you are is to 'live' as who and

what you are, with out emblazonment in what you are doing, without seeking

out 'publicity', 'parades', and 'pride'. Just simply being *who* you are

You will loose friends along the way, but take heart in that they were never

really true friends (otherwise you will not have lost them) but again you will

gain *new friends* and they will be for the better because they will have only

known the real new you.

In this way, keeping a low profile you are not inviting the glare of the curious,

the ignorant, and the dam right rude ... and so get to live the life you say you

want to?

It is not necessary to apologise or explain yourself or your differences to anyone

you are who you are ... never expect to be accepted by every one No one

whatever they say, or you think ever is.

We all every one of us LGBT/straight? have *hang ups* which we have to

learn to live with!!

posted on Apr, 26 2015 @ 07:10 AM
Why is this news of any sort?

Fact....go to California and get caught up in the drivel that is LA/Hollywood and you're bound to have you head screwed up. You can't play with poop and not get a little on you.

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