Republican Congress Strips Women and Gays of Rights Under Guise of ‘Religious Freedom’

originally posted by: arpgme
a reply to: beezzer

Hate speech and death threats are not included in freedom of speech. There are limits, not absolute freedom of speech. And no, you do not have the right to get bakeries to go against discrimination laws to write discriminating things on a cake.

What are you talking about this makes no sense. First a death threat is an act of violence. It has nothing to do with ftee speech. It isn't even an infringement on free speech. A death threat falls under murder laws it's called criminal intent.Really not sure how you figure this has anything to do with any kind of rights

originally posted by: damwel

originally posted by: beezzer

originally posted by: stargatetravels
a reply to: beezzer


You can't honestly be as stupid as your posts suggest?
It must be wilful trolling and intentional obtuseness.

I'm all for equal freedoms.

Not special treatment for one group over another.

You think that's stupid, well go for it.

That's exactly what you are advocating , the rights of religious groups to discriminate over another group. You are for giving religious groups special rights.

Religous beliefs are protected under the constitution. They have the right to believe anything they like and the government has no say in the matter. This is the separation of church and state.If a religion decides they don't want to associate with a group of people again withing their rights.

originally posted by: arpgme
a reply to: beezzer

Hate speech and death threats are not included in freedom of speech. There are limits, not absolute freedom of speech. And no, you do not have the right to get bakeries to go against discrimination laws to write discriminating things on a cake.

Cake icing doesn't discriminate.

It never has.

It never will.

It's just tasty letters.

Now you apparently want to deny free speech.

Puddin', the reason why we have the 1st Amendment is to protect hate speech and nasty speech.

Nice, PC speech doesn't need protection.

originally posted by: dragonridr
Religous beliefs are protected under the constitution. They have the right to believe anything they like and the government has no say in the matter. This is the separation of church and state.If a religion decides they don't want to associate with a group of people again withing their rights.

Nobody is telling anyone what to believe. Yes Religion and Religious Institutions are allowed to follow a different set of rules.

But this is about Businesses who serve the general public. These businesses primary focus in not about Religion.

If they want to be treated like a Religious Institution then they should change their business to that instead of being a bakery, or pizza place or whatever it is they chose to be.

a reply to: dragonridr

Religous beliefs are protected under the constitution. They have the right to believe anything they like and the government has no say in the matter. This is the separation of church and state.If a religion decides they don't want to associate with a group of people again withing their rights.

That is right but that is not the issue here.

The issue here is discrimination in businesses and workplaces.

a reply to: beezzer

Now you apparently want to deny free speech.

Nobody here wants to deny free speech. I have no idea where you get this from.

a reply to: Deaf Alien

"originally posted by: arpgme
a reply to: beezzer

Hate speech and death threats are not included in freedom of speech."



Is that clear enough for you?

originally posted by: mOjOm

originally posted by: dragonridr
Religous beliefs are protected under the constitution. They have the right to believe anything they like and the government has no say in the matter. This is the separation of church and state.If a religion decides they don't want to associate with a group of people again withing their rights.

Nobody is telling anyone what to believe. Yes Religion and Religious Institutions are allowed to follow a different set of rules.

But this is about Businesses who serve the general public. These businesses primary focus in not about Religion.

If they want to be treated like a Religious Institution then they should change their business to that instead of being a bakery, or pizza place or whatever it is they chose to be.

I can't compel a person to go against their religous beliefs through force intimidation or rule of law. This is what freedom is all about. And the reason the US was founded in the first place. If someone is entering into a contract with another individual even under business laws either person has the right not to enter the contract for any reason they choose. If someone comes up to a baker and demands he make a special cake he always has the right to decline. Because at that point it's a business contract. You can't legally make someone enter into a contract without their consent. Law is amazingly clear on this point now had he had a wedding cake already made and refused to sell it that is a diffrent matter entirely than the laws of commerce apply.

a reply to: beezzer

"originally posted by: arpgme
a reply to: beezzer

Hate speech and death threats are not included in freedom of speech."

Is that clear enough for you?

Eh? I am not sure if you are a troll or not really quite understanding?

They are not included in freedom of speech as per law. It's not his opinion. It's the law!

If you are not a troll and actually mean it then I guess you think people have the freedom to yell fire in a crowded theater.

a reply to: dragonridr

What contract? A bakery makes and sells cakes to the public. Why do they care who they sell them to?

If you are thinking of service then that's a different story. I am not too familiar with that. Annee is well-versed in that matter.

a reply to: Deaf Alien

Yes.

Is "God hates fags" hate speech?

Is it illegal?

Is a picture of the prophet illegal?

Is that a hate speech?

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: dragonridr

What contract? A bakery makes and sells cakes to the public. Why do they care who they sell them to?

If you are thinking of service then that's a different story. I am not too familiar with that. Annee is well-versed in that matter.

For a wedding a contract is done. The baker agrees to supply a cake on a specific date with their specifications . The buyer agrees to pay the baker for the cake even before it's made. Should the buyer even try to cancel the cake he will still owe the baker money as a fee. Failure of baker to provide cake and he is in breech of contract and can be sued. Neither party can be forced or coerced onto the contract.

a reply to: dragonridr

You can refuse service. Nobody can force you to act or serve if you choose not to. You are correct there.

However, if you have a business that falls under "public accommodations" and you refuse to serve someone of the public and it can be shown that you have acted in a pattern of behavior fitting "discrimination" then you can be fined for it. That is the law.

Nobody can make you believe any different. Nobody can make you serve someone you don't want to. But if you refuse service because you choose to discriminate then you are in violation of law and in a civil suit, if you lose, you will be fined for Discrimination.

That is why these "Religious Freedom" laws are all about making it impossible to sue them. Because once they are allowed to "discriminate" without being fined for it, they can discriminate all they want with impunity. Which is exactly what they will do and they've already made it quite clear that is what they want to do.

a reply to: beezzer

Is "God hates fags" hate speech?

Is it illegal?

No it is not illegal. It's perfectly legal and I support that right.

Is a picture of the prophet illegal?

Again no.

a reply to: Deaf Alien

Then as ugly as it sounds, people will want cakes with those things on them.

They will demand it from a LGBT bakery, they will demand it from a Muslim bakery and this ugliness will go on and on and on.

originally posted by: mOjOm
a reply to: dragonridr

You can refuse service. Nobody can force you to act or serve if you choose not to. You are correct there.

However, if you have a business that falls under "public accommodations" and you refuse to serve someone of the public and it can be shown that you have acted in a pattern of behavior fitting "discrimination" then you can be fined for it. That is the law.

Nobody can make you believe any different. Nobody can make you serve someone you don't want to. But if you refuse service because you choose to discriminate then you are in violation of law and in a civil suit, if you lose, you will be fined for Discrimination.

That is why these "Religious Freedom" laws are all about making it impossible to sue them. Because once they are allowed to "discriminate" without being fined for it, they can discriminate all they want with impunity. Which is exactly what they will do and they've already made it quite clear that is what they want to do.

If the cake was pre made than yes your right and the baker would have sold it to them. Wanting a baker to put say two grooms on a cake special order well he can say no. He chose nit to enter into the contract To make said cake.Being a baker he can refuse to make any cake he so chooses. For example the local JFK come in having a party and want a cake with a burning cross. If this in some way offends our baker he can say no I won't do that. Is the baker designating yes oddly he is I'm my scenario. He's passing judgement on a group of people. Is he required to make said cake no.

a reply to: beezzer

Then as ugly as it sounds, people will want cakes with those things on them.

Are you talking about decorations? They are not required to do that.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: beezzer

Then as ugly as it sounds, people will want cakes with those things on them.

Are you talking about decorations? They are not required to do that.

*facepalm*

I'm done.

Have a nice day.

You apparently just don't get it.

a reply to: beezzer

Nah you just don't get it yourself.

You apparently think the bakery have the right to refuse selling cakes to gay people for their weddings which they sell to other people.

originally posted by: Deaf Alien
a reply to: beezzer

Nah you just don't get it yourself.

You apparently think the bakery have the right to refuse selling cakes to gay people for their weddings which they sell to other people.

If a gay couple walks onto a bakery they can have any cake he has made. If they want the baker to do something special for them the bakernel can say no for whatever reason they choose. The Baker is simply refusing to create a contract between him and the other party. Sad that you think you can force people to do things against their will. That is a comers tone of democracy the freedom to day no.