The Great Illusion: Heaven after Death

I was raised to believe that if I am good, I will go to heaven when I die. Many people within Christianity believe this, and many outside of Christianity laugh at this idea. Rightfully so, because it never once in the Bible says anything about heaven being achieved after death. In fact, heaven, or God's Kingdom, is blatantly stated as being something that is achieved during one's life time if they seek it:

“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:23).
“Truly the righteous attain life, but whoever pursues evil finds death” (Proverbs 11:19).
“The one who sins is the one who will die” (Ezekiel 18:4).
“(sinners) will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life” (Matthew 25:45).


Sin means "to miss the mark". We are missing the point of life by sinning, and because of this we are dying. I don't know how heaven was misconceived as something achieved after death? This idea of heaven being something after death has rendered people lethargic and passive. Ironically, if you say to 99% of Christians that we are Gods they will call it luciferian, despite it being in Gospel:

Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’? (John 10:34)

Jesus came so we could do as he did and rejoin the Kingdom of Heaven:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father." (John 14:12)

Paul, after following the life of Christ, achieved such a state:

"But Paul shook the snake off into the fire and suffered no ill effects. The people expected him to swell up or suddenly fall dead; but after waiting a long time and seeing nothing unusual happen to him, they changed their minds and said he was a god" (Acts 28:5-6)

Since the idea of heaven is perpetuated as something that is achieved after death, it has caused people to not look and work for it during their lifetime. And, because they "miss the mark" of life, they die.

“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.”
(John 5:24)

a reply to: cooperton

Christians LOL. For as much as they say they love God, most of them are arrogant, self righteous people who love their exalted class status far more than any religious belief system.

a reply to: Lazzzarus22
I would correct that to Christians, the religion of many confusing contradictory and if you ask questions you don't have enough faith religion.

a reply to: cooperton

Your OP confuses me. If there is no Heaven, and only the sinful truly die, then where do the blessed ones exist for eternity?

My concern about this is not for me. I'm not a believer, but for you.

I agree with you here, this is one of the main reasons the world is in the shape it is in today, people being complacent about our home being destroyed for profit. Why fight it when eternal bliss and a perfect world awaits after death?

The dogma that heaven awaits AFTER death is to not see the potential this world has of being heaven. Those who destroy the world for profit are the same ones who have the most to gain from people believing heaven comes after this life. They're the same ones who have preserved the bible and churches, they are the main facilitators of their wealth in my opinion.

a reply to: Aliensun

The point was that the kingdom of Heaven, eternal life, is granted to those who seek it during their lifetime and not something that is granted after death.. From the incipit of the Gospel of Thomas:

"These are the secret sayings that the living Jesus spoke and Didymos Judas Thomas recorded.
And he said, "Whoever discovers the interpretation of these sayings will not taste death."

When Jesus told people that following his actions would lead to eternal life, the pharisees at the time thought he was crazy:

“I am not possessed by a demon,” said Jesus... "Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.”

At this they exclaimed, “Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that whoever obeys your word will never taste death. Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”

"Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Its funny because most Christians would consider this to be heresy, yet it is explicitly stated in the above passage.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

yeah exactly. I have no idea how the idea came to being in the first place, it is nowhere in the Bible. Most "Christians" don't even read the Bible so that could explain it, but instead use the title for self-exaltation.

a reply to: cooperton

I was raised to believe that if I am good, I will go to heaven when I die.

Yet even Jesus said he wasn't good, so what chance do you have if this is reality?

Jesus clarified the issue actually... heaven is here... We're in it, and we don't leave it after death, our spirit remains but in a state where sin can not exist because there is no flesh for it to exist...

Everyone goes to the same place after our bodies pass on... Its only Christianity that believes that they are the exceptional people and we ascend to some heavenly place with pearly gates... and as far as I've seen, there are very few Christians that would even come close to making the cut if they needed to be "good"

originally posted by: Lazzzarus22
a reply to: cooperton

Christians LOL. For as much as they say they love God, most of them are arrogant, self righteous people who love their exalted class status far more than any religious belief system.

Exactly! Absolutely spot on.

My best mate in high school had a dad who was a pastor of a brethren church (not those exclusive nuts, just normal brethren). Admittedly, they used to follow there little BS teachings as a rule, helping a few junkies or poverty stricken families out here and there with second hand clothes or old cans of food. But you could see it in there's eye's, they thought they where superior to everyone around them. They even raised there children in a manner that taught them they were Superior to everyone around them. Yeah, on the surface they did good things for the less fortunate, but deep inside, they had nothing but resentment for the people they where helping.

So my question is, if this christian bible turns out to be fact, who deserves Gods mercy more?

This upper middle class family I speak of, who accepted gods word into there so called hearts and believed the holy word with pure faith, yet only ever attempted to follow jesus's word out of pure fear?

Or me, who believes this life is all there is until death do us part and thinks the bible is a complete load of vile nonsense, invented by the ancient roman government to bring the pagan masses under there control and who will never have faith that gods word holds any truth. Yet still treats everyone just how Jesus preached out of pure moral, rather than fear. Even though I know its the only thing standing between me becoming a rich man?

imo, the bible and jesus's teachings are just one big contradiction. To believe it is just a clear sign you are a bad person, who's merely overcome with guilt and fear.

a reply to: cooperton

Guten Morgen- "Everybody wants to go to Heaven, but nobody wants to die..." If We were to look at this from a Taoist point, One wouldn't even KNOW Heaven until they KNEW Hell, the same as not knowing 'tall' unless You knew 'short'... Of course in this instance, "know" trumps "felt" 'thought' and "believed"... But that is handled in the very first verse/chapter:

"The Tao that can be told is NOT the Eternal Tao"

"Religion is for folks afraid of Hell, 'Spirituality' is for folks that have already been..." - The Great Sioux Nation.

Jesus The Chris† also said "You ARE the Church" And then He got whacked by 'the money changers' and then the world's first "Lee Harvey" "Judas" got pinned with it, Jesus' bff... "They" were dividing the division even back then...

You are Me and We are en route back from 'whence We came' The One Infinite Creator, Hunab Ku, who resides in The Octave.. How many chakras are there? 7 + 1 = Octave.

namaste

"Today, you will be with me in paradise"


So...what do you suppose this "paradise" might be, that Jesus was promising to the converted thief? Was hanging on those crosses paradise? Or was a place being described, after they had passed away?


a reply to: cooperton

a reply to: cooperton

I was raised to believe that if I am good, I will go to heaven when I die. Many people within Christianity believe this, and many outside of Christianity laugh at this idea. Rightfully so, because it never once in the Bible says anything about heaven being achieved after death. In fact, heaven, or God's Kingdom, is blatantly stated as being something that is achieved during one's life time if they seek it:

Which bible do you use?

Using the KJV bible it is written that Jesus told His companion in death that His companion would be with Him in paradise this very day that they both would die. Paradise is used in the KJV bible only three times in the NT. The location of paradise is questioned by a great many people but is shown in the scriptures.

But first, understand that in some of the rabbinic understanding, paradise was considered Gan Eden and there were two Gan Edens in their philosophy. One garden was on this earth and taken from this earth and another was that it was in the celestial realm. Then there are some others who believed that paradise was in Sheol and contained the spirits of the dead souls. Here we are talking about what the KJV bible says and not what you want it to say.

Jesus taught that paradise was in His kingdom of heaven (God).

2nd Corinthians 12:2-4
(2) - I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. (3) And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth (4) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

By this we are taught that paradise is in the third heaven which is outside of this universe.

Jesus promised His crucified companion that he would be with Him this very same day that they both would die.

Luke 23:42-43
(42) - And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. (43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Then we are taught that there is a tree of life in this paradise which is in heaven.

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

It is then revealed where the celestial paradise with the tree and water of life is located.

Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

This kingdom of heaven is the celestial city New Jerusalem. As you read the entire chapters of Revelation 21 and 22 you will understand that this is the Kingdom of Heaven which Jesus preached while alive.

Proof? No not proof but only theology but still biblical.

Question - If the kingdom is within (whatever that means) then why would Jesus have to come into His kingdom by death?
-- "remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom" - If the kingdom is within (whatever that means) then are you saying that the kingdom also dies when you die? Also if the kingdom is within then how many kingdoms are there? Must be trillions of kingdoms out there.

a reply to: Seede

There is only one kingdom but many different viewpoints within it. Look at what's in front of you, you'll see the reflection of the kingdom that is within you. The perfection of the world around you is the mirror image of the kingdom within you, which means perfection lies within you as well. As above, so below; as within, so without.

Ignore corrupt human affairs and maybe you'll see the perfection that lies within everything. The make up of the physical world is proof that we are already in heaven. Look into the sky at night and see the perfection and beauty of the universe. What you've been waiting for is already here, don't let the world and its corrupt teachings blind you to it.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: Seede

There is only one kingdom but many different viewpoints within it. Look at what's in front of you, you'll see the reflection of the kingdom that is within you. The perfection of the world around you is the mirror image of the kingdom within you, which means perfection lies within you as well. As above, so below; as within, so without.

Ignore corrupt human affairs and maybe you'll see the perfection that lies within everything. The make up of the physical world is proof that we are already in heaven. Look into the sky at night and see the perfection and beauty of the universe. What you've been waiting for is already here, don't let the world and its corrupt teachings blind you to it.

Beautiful. Clean the inside of the cup and the outside will also become clean.

Seede you make good points, but I think the main purpose of the two "criminals" on either side of him was to demonstrate that anyone, at any time, can repent and rejoin paradise. It is said multiple times that the kingdom is within you. As it is said, if it were up in the sky then the birds would be superior to us, which is not the case.

originally posted by: cooperton
Sin means "to miss the mark". We are missing the point of life by sinning, and because of this we are dying. I don't know how heaven was misconceived as something achieved after death? This idea of heaven being something after death has rendered people lethargic and passive. Ironically, if you say to 99% of Christians that we are Gods they will call it luciferian, despite it being in Gospel...

Missing the mark is the same as not being in communion with the Divine in any given moment. Jesus clearly taught this and summarized it in his two great commandments to love God with the whole body-mind, and one's neighbor as oneself. To do otherwise is to miss the mark.

However, I am surprised what you say about Paul because Paul's message, based on just believing in Jesus and one will be saved upon dying, is quite the contrary to moment to moment not missing the mark. To those looking for the easy way, Paul's message was perfect: Just believe and you are saved down the line! None of this moment to moment turning of the whole body-mind to God! That is way too difficult!

So Paul's message was adopted and Jesus' esoteric message of present communion with the Divine Light above was all but forgotten.

a reply to: Lazzzarus22

Most Christians I know would not even consider themselves a higher class. What type of idea is in your head when you think of Christians.

Most Christians do not talk about their religion for fear of embarrassment or misunderstanding. I find that it is people that spread false perceptions of Christians cause them to feel unaccepted or insecure.

Maybe you just shun Christians and choose not to accept them right off the bat because you think you're better than them.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Ignore corrupt human affairs and maybe you'll see the perfection that lies within everything. The make up of the physical world is proof that we are already in heaven. Look into the sky at night and see the perfection and beauty of the universe. What you've been waiting for is already here, don't let the world and its corrupt teachings blind you to it.

You read but what you read you do not understand.

1Co_15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

The terrestrial creation will eventually be completely dissolved so I would not think that you should consider any of it the kingdom of heaven.

John_7:7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

John_15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

My love is not this world or any portion of it. This world nor universe is not my kingdom of heaven or kingdom of God.

a reply to: cooperton

Seede you make good points, but I think the main purpose of the two "criminals" on either side of him was to demonstrate that anyone, at any time, can repent and rejoin paradise. It is said multiple times that the kingdom is within you. As it is said, if it were up in the sky then the birds would be superior to us, which is not the case.

I don't believe what you say is in my KJV bible.
The entire subject matter in this particular discussion was paradise and paradise cannot be within any one. Paradise is a place that does exist in the New Jerusalem and is not parabolic in any sense by the author. You can not rejoin paradise without first being in paradise and according to the KJV bible it most certainly is not a terrestrial place. It is used in the KJV bible three times and I gave all three times in my previous post.

As far as the "kingdom of heaven within you" is concerned that also is not in the KJV bible multiple times. In fact it is not in the KJV bible even one time. Remember that I said in the KJV bible which I did note in my latter post.

a reply to: Seede

Originally posted by seede
You read but what you read you do not understand.

1Co_15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

That verse is making a point that the Kingdom of God/Heaven, is a spiritual Kingdom/Place, which is why it states flesh and blood cannot inherit it; only the Spirit can…

Originally posted by seede
The terrestrial creation will eventually be completely dissolved so I would not think that you should consider any of it the kingdom of heaven.

Again the terrestrial kingdom being dissolved, is really about people living for the spirit within themselves, rather than living for the flesh. This is why it is also written that the flesh wars against the Spirit.

Originally posted by seede
John_15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

My love is not this world or any portion of it. This world nor universe is not my kingdom of heaven or kingdom of God.

Again that John 15:19 verse is talking about this world, which has been ruled by those people who live only for the flesh;

The world at that time was only living for the flesh and evil ways etc…, hence Jesus words, “the Father of lies, is now in control of this world” etc…That’s what Jesus truly meant when he said, he had chosen them out of this world (i.e. the evil ways of this world) by bringing them into the Kingdom, which is a spiritual Kingdom within…

Jesus Lords prayer shows the way, “Thy Kingdom come, on Earth, as it is in Heaven” etc…this shows that the Kingdom of God/Heaven, can come onto/into the Earth, because it’s a spiritual kingdom, whereby people begin to whorship in Spirit and in truth…

Originally posted by seede
As far as the "kingdom of heaven within you" is concerned that also is not in the KJV bible multiple times. In fact it is not in the KJV bible even one time. Remember that I said in the KJV bible which I did note in my latter post.

Luke 17:20-21 (King James Version)

20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

- JC

a reply to: Seede

THIS world does not constitute the entire universe, THIS world is corrupt but the entire universe is not. To say you do not love your home is to be complacent toward those who destroy it. If anything you have only proven my point and the OP's that heaven after death makes people lethargic.

This world was heaven at one point, but that was before man convinced others that it is not worth saving. Why fight against the destruction of our home when heaven isn't until after you die?

You having no love for your home is facilitating those who destroy it for profit. This is why they have no Mother in the Trinity, they removed her so that she would have no place in heaven and would give those in power free reign to take advantage of her and her inhabitants.