The Great Illusion: Heaven after Death

a reply to: Joecroft

Jesus Lords prayer shows the way, “Thy Kingdom come, on Earth, as it is in Heaven” etc…this shows that the Kingdom of God/Heaven, can come onto/into the Earth, because it’s a spiritual kingdom, whereby people begin to whorship in Spirit and in truth…

You did not quote the prayer correctly.

Luke_11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

That is in most bibles once only and is not "kingdom of heaven." My understanding of that is that the kingdom of God is not of the terrestrial substance and being not of this universe no one can truthfully say it is in this place or that place upon this earth. It is not upon this earth but is fastened in a believer by faith which is belief within you.

In a sense the kingdom of God is the infinite celestial existence whereas the kingdom of heaven is one particular place within the celestial existence. The kingdom of heaven is New Jerusalem and the new heaven and new earth. The Adamic race who becomes citizens of this kingdom are restricted to this kingdom of heaven and do not have access to the entire kingdom of God. This is why most bibles will show the difference between kingdom of heaven and kingdom of God. The kingdom of heaven is a celestial place within the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God is infinite whereas the kingdom of heaven is finite.

The kingdom of heaven (New Jerusalem) is a created estate shown in Isaiah and then verified by John after Jesus died.

Isaiah 65:17-19
(17) For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. (18) But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. (19) And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

THIS world does not constitute the entire universe, THIS world is corrupt but the entire universe is not. To say you do not love your home is to be complacent toward those who destroy it. If anything you have only proven my point and the OP's that heaven after death makes people lethargic. This world was heaven at one point, but that was before man convinced others that it is not worth saving. Why fight against the destruction of our home when heaven isn't until after you die? You having no love for your home is facilitating those who destroy it for profit. This is why they have no Mother in the Trinity, they removed her so that she would have no place in heaven and would give those in power free reign to take advantage of her and her inhabitants. edit on 4/1/2015 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

You have said that this world is not the governing factor of the universe but you are totally mistaken according to biblical accounts. Moses teaches that the universe was created for this world.

Gen 1:14-18
(14) And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: (15) And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. (16) And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. (17) And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, (18)And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

Whether the universe was created before the world of after the world, I do not know but the contents of the universe were placed after the world and for the world.

As far as this world being heaven at one time is not true. This entire universe's contents consists of the same terrestrial substances and was never created as celestial or infinite. If you reference Gan Eden as being heaven then that also is questionable. Were it not for the tree of knowledge to know good and evil and the tree of life, it is assumed that the contents of the garden were also of the terrestrial substances.

If you postulate that Gan Eden was celestial then it would be a small portion of the world that was but could not represent the entire world as of celestial substance. Nevertheless, this world was never celestial after it was created.

The matter of this world being the kingdom of heaven is not true at all.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

a reply to: 3NL1GHT3N3D1

THIS world does not constitute the entire universe, THIS world is corrupt but the entire universe is not. To say you do not love your home is to be complacent toward those who destroy it. If anything you have only proven my point and the OP's that heaven after death makes people lethargic. This world was heaven at one point, but that was before man convinced others that it is not worth saving. Why fight against the destruction of our home when heaven isn't until after you die? You having no love for your home is facilitating those who destroy it for profit. This is why they have no Mother in the Trinity, they removed her so that she would have no place in heaven and would give those in power free reign to take advantage of her and her inhabitants. edit on 4/1/2015 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

You have said that this world is not the governing factor of the universe but you are totally mistaken according to biblical accounts. Moses teaches that the universe was created for this world.

Gen 1:14-18
(14) And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: (15) And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. (16) And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. (17) And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, (18)And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

Whether the universe was created before the world of after the world, I do not know but the contents of the universe were placed after the world and for the world.

As far as this world being heaven at one time is not true. This entire universe's contents consists of the same terrestrial substances and was never created as celestial or infinite. If you reference Gan Eden as being heaven then that also is questionable. Were it not for the tree of knowledge to know good and evil and the tree of life, it is assumed that the contents of the garden were also of the terrestrial substances.

If you postulate that Gan Eden was celestial then it would be a small portion of the world that was but could not represent the entire world as of celestial substance. Nevertheless, this world was never celestial after it was created.

The matter of this world being the kingdom of heaven is not true at all.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

originally posted by: Seede

As far as this world being heaven at one time is not true... The matter of this world being the kingdom of heaven is not true at all.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Good point. I think God's Kingdom, or the Kingdom of Heaven, or Paradise, can be simplified into one category:

“Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death — that is, the devil…“ (Hebrews 2:14).
“The Last enemy that will be destroyed is death”
(1 Corinthians 15:26).
“but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel”
(2 Timothy 1:10).

When the "world" (whatever that may be) no longer tastes death, that will be heaven. So in this way pre-fall Garden of Eden is Paradise, wherever Enoch "went" was paradise, wherever Elijah "went" was paradise, wherever Jesus went was paradise.

“Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man entering his kingdom” (Matthew 16:28).

The Son of Man, literally that which is birthed from man, is the spiritual offspring that ascends to heaven:

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." (John 3:13)

^^^This MUST be referring to that spiritual essence within us, because we know Enoch and Elijah ascended to paradise, so the Son of Man is not strictly a reference to Jesus (although he was the epidome of the Son of Man's expression) , but a reference to the potential within us to give birth to a Spiritual offspring in paradise. Also in John 3:

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6)

So, where does this Son of Man go?

"And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." (Matthew 8:20)

I would like to make a speculation (as in, this is my current humble opinion on how this is to occur)... To make an analogy, we are currently in 3rd dimensional awareness, and are "of this world". God is said to be the light, we would ascend to the 4th dimension, which is light, where it is transcendent of time and decay and there would be no place to lay our heads:

"And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever." (Revelations 22:5)

This has been a great discussion so far.

a reply to: Seede

Originally posted by seede
You did not quote the prayer correctly.

Luke_11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

I left that part out deliberately, to help emphasize the point; but it still points to same thing…here’s the full version

Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven

This verse is dual; it’s about Gods will being done on Earth, and the Kingdom coming into/onto the Earth, as well…just as it is in Heaven…i.e. Gods Kingdom and His Will…coming onto the Earth…

The “thy Kingdom come” part, can’t be talking about a place most people think of as Heaven, because presumably Gods Will and Kingdom already exist there!

Which can only mean one thing, which is, that the verse is really talking about the “Kingdom Coming” onto the Earth…just as it already is, in Heaven…

Originally posted by seede
That is in most bibles once only and is not "kingdom of heaven." My understanding of that is that the kingdom of God is not of the terrestrial substance and being not of this universe no one can truthfully say it is in this place or that place upon this earth. It is not upon this earth but is fastened in a believer by faith which is belief within you.

Yes, it does not exist in a terrestrial physical place; Jesus also states it cannot be seen visually…so it’s not a place your going to see with your own eyes, it’s a place you come to know, perceive and understand…

According to standard Christian beliefs, it’s the physically resurrected flesh/ blood and bodies, that will enter someday enter into a place called Heaven…But according to that other verse you mentioned in your previous post (1Co_15:50), it specifically states, that flesh and blood cannot inherit it;

Although I do believe in a spiritual resurrection, which is the real wording (i.e. spiritual) used by Paul in his Epistles…

Originally posted by seede
In a sense the kingdom of God is the infinite celestial existence whereas the kingdom of heaven is one particular place within the celestial existence. The kingdom of heaven is New Jerusalem and the new heaven and new earth. The Adamic race who becomes citizens of this kingdom are restricted to this kingdom of heaven and do not have access to the entire kingdom of God. This is why most bibles will show the difference between kingdom of heaven and kingdom of God. The kingdom of heaven is a celestial place within the kingdom of God. The kingdom of God is infinite whereas the kingdom of heaven is finite.

The Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God, are both one and the same thing…IMO

Take a look at this verse below…

Matthew 11:11-12
11 “Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force.

Each of the instances above regarding the Kingdom of Heaven can’t be talking about the Kingdom of Heaven being far off in the Heavens somewhere, ruled by Gods Angels, because surely there is no violence in Heaven…

In the First instance, Jesus is stating John the Baptists position, in Kingdom of Heaven, and the next sentence describes the violence that’s been taking place in the Kingdom of Heaven…both these sentences are about Earth and how the spiritual Kingdom here, has become corrupted…

They are clearly not talking about some “Kingdom of Heaven” that you go too, after you die etc…

Originally posted by seede
The kingdom of heaven (New Jerusalem) is a created estate shown in Isaiah and then verified by John after Jesus died.

Isaiah 65:17-19
(17) For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. (18) But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. (19) And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

But those verses above are all cryptic IMO…they are using imagery and poetic license, (often used in the Old Testament) to help describe something etc…

When people live for the spirit, the Kingdom of Heaven will reign of the Earth, the former atrocities and violence's will not be remembered…and there will be joy, rejoicing and no more weeping…


- JC

a reply to: cooperton

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." (John 3:13) ^^^This MUST be referring to that spiritual essence within us, because we know Enoch and Elijah ascended to paradise, so the Son of Man is not strictly a reference to Jesus (although he was the epidome of the Son of Man's expression) , but a reference to the potential within us to give birth to a Spiritual offspring in paradise. Also in John 3:

cooperton,
You bring a lot of good thought and want to thank you for your input.

When Jesus said that - "no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.", He spoke this while yet alive and till that day it was true. This is why the account of Jesus' death companion is so important for our understanding.

As Jesus died the Wednesday before Passover, it was that same Wednesday afternoon that He was taken from the cross and entombed. This would be from about three in that afternoon till about six in that same afternoon. Within those three hours Jesus and his companion first descended into the heart of this earth for three days and three nights as was prophesied. Paradise was believed to be in Sheol at this time because Jesus said to His companion that he would be in paradise that same day they died and if they were in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights then paradise must have been in Sheol.

About two years later we read the account of St. Stephens death by stoning. Paul tells us that paradise is now in the third heaven. Tradition tells us that this is true and that paradise was moved from Sheol to the third heaven. By this we are led to believe that it was during those three days in which Jesus was in Sheol that He led the captives out of the captivity of Sheol and into His kingdom which is in heaven.

Now the question comes to light as to why was paradise moved to New Jerusalem. The answer lays in St. John's Revelation from Christ Jesus. The universe and all of its contents will one day be consumed by ethereal fire. This includes all who are in the earth. Who were in the earth? Both righteous and unrighteous alike were in the compartments of Sheol. Then in order to save (have salvation) those righteous must be removed from Sheol to the heavenly abode. This is why Revelation says that hell (Sheol) will be cast into the lake of fire in the day of judgment.



To be removed from terrestrial to celestial requires a new body (covering) for the naked spirit as well as a new name and the language of the celestial realm. But more than this it also requires nourishment of food and water to our particular creation. That food and water comes from the tree and waters of life which are in the celestial paradise.

The spirit requires no food or water but the body does require food and water. This is explained as to why the spirits in Sheol are not required to have food and water. They are naked spirits or as some will say disembodied spirits and as such had no need for the tree and water of life. But now we see a substance change that requires food and water to exist forever as a resurrected entity.

Tradition tells us that the orthodox Hebrews were correct when they taught that there were two Gan Edens which were terrestrial and celestial. Moses' accounts are actually flawless and it is our understandings that are flawed.

a reply to: Joecroft

This verse is dual; it’s about Gods will being done on Earth, and the Kingdom coming into/onto the Earth, as well…just as it is in Heaven…i.e. Gods Kingdom and His Will…coming onto the Earth… The “thy Kingdom come” part, can’t be talking about a place most people think of as Heaven, because presumably Gods Will and Kingdom already exist there! Which can only mean one thing, which is, that the verse is really talking about the “Kingdom Coming” onto the Earth…just as it already is, in Heaven…

The problem in that interpretation is that God's will is not being done on this earth and since the garden has never been done upon this earth. God's will is through Christ Jesus and not through mankind.

Isaiah tells us
Isaiah 34:3,4
(3) Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. (4) And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

Isa 24:19,20
(19) The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. (20) The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.

2Peter_3:11,12
(11) Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, (12) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

One prophecy from the OT and one prophecy from the NT tells us that this entire universe will be completely destroyed and never rise again. How then can the kingdom of God be in or on this earth when it will be totally done away with? I see nothing that suggests that the kingdom of God can be destroyed. Is that what you have postulated?

a reply to: cooperton

“Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man entering his kingdom” (Matthew 16:28).

That verse is quite often misunderstood.
Jesus taught that some of those who were listening to His sermon would not taste death till He (Jesus) would enter His kingdom. Many of those who were living at that time saw or heard of Jesus dieing and as He died and descended into Sheol to release the justified out of Sheol is exactly when He offered His kingdom (New Jerusalem). This verifies the fact that the kingdom of heaven was not given to this creation till His covenant was shown to be celestial and that covenant was the blood covenant of Christ Jesus.

originally posted by: Ignatian
"Today, you will be with me in paradise"

So...what do you suppose this "paradise" might be, that Jesus was promising to the converted thief? Was hanging on those crosses paradise? Or was a place being described, after they had passed away?

a reply to: cooperton

Descriptive narrative was not HELL INCARNATE (and if so, the believer flock was misled). It is obvious existing as 'another place of a higher enlightenment STATUS' (did you gain it by diligent force/action; this IS THE key to enter the kingdom )and it is not FREE; you have to work the paths [no GO pass free card monopoly money 200.00].

a reply to: Seede

Originally posted by seede
The problem in that interpretation is that God's will is not being done on this earth and since the garden has never been done upon this earth. God's will is through Christ Jesus and not through mankind.

But that’s what Jesus Lords prayer is truly all about IMO, i.e. praying for that spiritual Kingdom, to rise up and reign on the Earth…

“Gods Will” comes though Jesus teachings though, and is then followed by believers on Earth.

You are right though, Gods will is not being done upon the “majority” of the Earth, because the Father of lies, is still in control of this World.

But when every man on Earth, becomes born of God, and receives the Holy Spirit, then Kingdom of God/Heaven will reign on the Earth. It will become just like Jesus said i.e. “Thy Kingdom Come”, Thy Will be done, on Earth just as it is, in Heaven…

Originally posted by seede
One prophecy from the OT and one prophecy from the NT tells us that this entire universe will be completely destroyed and never rise again. How then can the kingdom of God be in or on this earth when it will be totally done away with? I see nothing that suggests that the kingdom of God can be destroyed. Is that what you have postulated?

It doesn’t matter if the Earth is done away with or not, the Spirit inhabits our physical form, and it’s that spirit, that people are supposed to follow and live for; When people live for the Spirit, that’s how they build up the Kingdom on Earth etc…but that spiritual kingdom can never be destroyed, even when the Earth is done away with…

That verse (Isa 24:19,20) is talking about the state the Earth is in, and how the transgressions upon the Earth shall be removed; but again, it can be viewed from a spiritual perspective also…

That verse in 2Peter_3:11,12 is a compounded error down through the texts, about an all conquering Messiah figure, coming back to destroy things, which goes completely against Gods true character… IMO…Gods true character was revealed through Jesus, as mentioned in John 1:18…

In my view men believed these things, because they believe the Kingdom of God/Heaven would be ushered in, by an All Conquering Destroying Messiah figure, based on there traditional views about Gods character from the OT and the warring Messiah prophecies, that Jesus didn’t fulfil.

Men mixed those warring prophecies, in with Jesus 2nd coming and the coming Kingdom, because they didn’t understand the real mysteries. They missed the truth, that I’m trying to point out to you here, in that the Kingdom is found within people spiritually. There are numerous other clues to this truth in the Bible, that cannot be easily dismissed…


- JC

originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: Seede

Seede: he problem in that interpretation is that God's will is not being done on this earth and since the garden has never been done upon this earth. God's will is through Christ Jesus and not through mankind.

JC: But that’s what Jesus Lords prayer is truly all about IMO, i.e. praying for that spiritual Kingdom, to rise up and reign on the Earth…
“Gods Will” comes though Jesus teachings though, and is then followed by believers on Earth.

Why would you think that? Gods will comes from "WITHIN YOU" Jesus said this.

JC: when every man on Earth, becomes born of God, and receives the Holy Spirit, then Kingdom of God/Heaven will reign on the Earth. It will become just like Jesus said i.e. “Thy Kingdom Come”, Thy Will be done, on Earth just as it is, in Heaven.

We really need to nail down the 'holy spirit" and what that entity actually is. Is it the ability/energy form GABRIEL ARCHANGLE/ANGEL to impregnate a 13 year old virgin and create a life form from nothing? Why just Mary; why not others. I would as that angle/angel be looking for other possibilities in case this one ideaform failed (just saying).

JC: spirit inhabits our physical form, and it’s that spirit, that people are supposed to follow and live for; When people live for the Spirit, that’s how they build up the Kingdom on Earth etc…but that spiritual kingdom can never be destroyed, even when the Earth is done away with

Define spirit. What exactly animates the clay body (I call it electro-magnetic radiation).

a reply to: vethumanbeing

We really need to nail down the 'holy spirit" and what that entity actually is. Define spirit. What exactly animates the clay body (I call it electro-magnetic radiation).

My understanding is that we do not and will never know what spirit actually is. We can define spirit from our own perspective but our understanding is terrestrial and not celestial. Even if we were in the celestial realm we still would not know because we are created and not begotten. In other words we can somewhat understand what we teach each other in this terrestrial world such as DNA, etc. but we are still confined to the terrestrial sciences.

When you say electro-magnetic radiation you are only understanding what the terrestrial sciences have learned concerning the terrestrial realm. It may have no likeness in substances whatsoever in the celestial realm. We are spirit in some proportion of our entity but we have no idea what that is or means. We can assume that it is a portion of what the Creator has given us to have life but what is that portion and is that portion indestructible?

In order to understand the celestial realm we would have to understand its structure and sciences as well as its dimension. What dimensional realm is this celestial realm and how many are there existing? Could it be infinite? Some ancients write of as many as ten heavens with one as a step to another. Some write of portals from one celestial realm to another and this is all outside of this universe.

Kabbalah teaches that God created a void within His infinite celestial existence and there placed this universe as we know it today. Therefore this universe is contained within this void as a child in its mothers' belly. Some of our sciences insist that the universe is expanding but then this same problem arises as to exactly what is the universe expanding into? Now we are right back as a dog chasing its tail. Is the universe engulfed in its own cocoon and is the cocoon engulfed in a like manner cocoon? If so how many celestial cocoon's are there and do they all embrace the same sciences? You can see that this unknown problem will always be with this creation. If this world is billions of years old then what chance does this creation have in understanding a simple universe mush less the celestial (spirit) realm?

When i have said that the kingdom of God is the infinite and the kingdom of heaven is the finite, this can explain some of what I postulated. The kingdom of God is not a restricted realm. It is not a place or geographical location whether that is terrestrial or celestial. It engulfs all existence of all that exists whether it be terrestrial or celestial. Every living terrestrial and celestial entity that has life is given that life by the infinite (whatever that is). That is the kingdom of God as I understand the kingdom of God.

On the other hand I understand the kingdom of heaven (finite) as being within the kingdom of God (infinite) but also restricted to a certain celestial place called city of New Jerusalem with a new heaven and a new earth. It has a definite place within the celestial realm of God. It is a celestial piece of real estate. It is not a spiritual indwelling of creation but is a defined existence of celestial structure. The city of New Jerusalem is patterned in likeness as our present terrestrial creation with the exception that it is everlasting. It does not indwell in you as the consciousness of the kingdom of God but is a new home to live in.

This is why the kingdom of heaven is not mentioned as within any other creation. It doesn't lie within any of the terrestrial creation but is built in the Kingdom of God. Jesus never revealed the kingdom of heaven while He was alive. It simply is not in your bible and it is for that reason that John was given the last two chapters of Revelation of Jesus to John.

a reply to: vethumanbeing

Originally posted by Joecroft
But that’s what Jesus Lords prayer is truly all about IMO, i.e. praying for that spiritual Kingdom, to rise up and reign on the Earth…
“Gods Will” comes though Jesus teachings though, and is then followed by believers on Earth.

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
Why would you think that? Gods will comes from "WITHIN YOU" Jesus said this.

I think that, because Jesus was in touch with the will of the Father…

Where did Jesus say that Gods will comes from “Within You”…? quote the verse, if you can…

Originally posted by Joecroft
when every man on Earth, becomes born of God, and receives the Holy Spirit, then Kingdom of God/Heaven will reign on the Earth. It will become just like Jesus said i.e. “Thy Kingdom Come”, Thy Will be done, on Earth just as it is, in Heaven.

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
We really need to nail down the 'holy spirit" and what that entity actually is.

We lol….No; “WE”, don’t need to do anything…I’ve already nailed it down, it is you, who needs to do so…

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
Define spirit. What exactly animates the clay body (I call it electro-magnetic radiation).

According the Kablyon, (which you’ve been studying for last 20 years!!!) What Spirit is, cannot be answered, except to say that it is “Infinite Living Mind”…shouldn’t you know this…?

The Kybalion (Page 30)
THE ALL is SPIRIT! But what is Spirit? This question cannot be answered, for the reason that its definition is practically that of THE ALL, which cannot be explained or defined. Spirit is simply a name that men give to the highest conception of Infinite Living Mind–it means “the Real Essence”–it means Living Mind, as much superior to Life and Mind as we know them, as the latter are superior to mechanical Energy and Matter. Spirit transcends our
understanding, and we use the term merely that we may think or speak of THE ALL. For the purposes of thought and understanding, we are justified in thinking of Spirit as Infinite Living Mind, at the same time acknowledging that we cannot fully understand it. We must either do this or stop thinking of the matter at all.

- JC

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: veteranhumanbeing

vhb:
We really need to nail down the 'holy spirit" and what that entity actually is. Define spirit. What exactly animates the clay body (I call it electro-magnetic radiation).

Seede: My understanding is that we do not and will never know what spirit actually is. We can define spirit from our own perspective but our understanding is terrestrial and not celestial. Even if we were in the celestial realm we still would not know because we are created and not begotten. In other words we can somewhat understand what we teach each other in this terrestrial world such as DNA, etc. but we are still confined to the terrestrial sciences.

This is a good thing; the physical sciences are attempting to bridge that gap (not that they ever will but the kudos for the effort). We are confined only as heavy 3D material body forms. That does not speak to what our minds/consciousness can do without being trapped in that form (which it can release and leave that body intact to travel the astral).

Seede: When you say electro-magnetic radiation you are only understanding what the terrestrial sciences have learned concerning the terrestrial realm. It may have no likeness in substances whatsoever in the celestial realm. We are spirit in some proportion of our entity but we have no idea what that is or means. We can assume that it is a portion of what the Creator has given us to have life but what is that portion and is that portion indestructible?

Absolutely. No proportion is available, some have measured it in gram weight once the spirit leaves the body at death. That tiny portion is as you say indestructible/eternal (radioactive).

Seede: Kabbalah teaches that God created a void within His infinite celestial existence and there placed this universe as we know it today. Therefore this universe is contained within this void as a child in its mothers' belly. Some of our sciences insist that the universe is expanding but then this same problem arises as to exactly what is the universe expanding into? Now we are right back as a dog chasing its tail. Is the universe engulfed in its own cocoon and is the cocoon engulfed in a like manner cocoon? If so how many celestial cocoon's are there and do they all embrace the same sciences? You can see that this unknown problem will always be with this creation. If this world is billions of years old then what chance does this creation have in understanding a simple universe mush less the celestial (spirit) realm?

A good analogy. The tree of life is split between the lower material and higher astral planes (and very simplified). How many bubbles of existence are there one can dwell within after leaving this incarnation? An infinite number. Thank you for your reply Seede.

originally posted by: Seede

The spirit requires no food or water but the body does require food and water.

This idea deserves its own thread but here goes a brief layover.

If ever there were a way for us humans to release our material constraints and approach spiritual reality, it would require some sort of dematerializing effort. This is explicitly discussed in gospel. It is fasting. Fasting, which is abstaining from food while still being able to drink water, allows you to dismiss material confines and begin to "see" spiritual truth:

"And He said to them, "Because of the littleness of your faith; for truly I say to you, if you have faith the size of a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you. But this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting." (Matthew 17:20-21)

Move mountains?! wow... I think we should REALLY think about this. If we look at what Jesus did after his 40 days of fasting, it is also very enlightening. He was "tempted" by the "devil" but this is symbolic of given infinite material power. He was inclined to have rulership over the world, but he refused it. He refused it because spirituality is beyond any sort of material pleasure, but material pleasure is the last temptation that would allow us from integrating into the heavenly realm. Similarly, The Buddha fasted for 49 days and was boosted into enlightenment.

This is what being "baptized" means. You are baptized with 'water'. In the 3 gospels which mentions Jesus' 40 days of fasting, it is always preceded by Jesus being baptized and then going off into the wilderness for the 40 day fast. This is also how we are to be "born again":

" Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[a]”

“How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. " (John 3:3-6)

The spiritual birth is hastened by fasting. This makes sense of the fall of man. it was eating that first got us into this fallen state. Symbology aside, it was literally the act of eating that caused the fall of man. But, humankind was allowed to "eat" of the tree of life, but this is spiritual sustenance, as discussed in the gospel:

"Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval." (John 6:27)

Fasting has recently become a point of interest for the scientific community. Rats that fasted lived 50% longer than rats that were allowed to eat at their own will! This is a result that demonstrates the incredible power of fasting, and for humans I think the implications are revolutionary. When the body is in a fasted state, the blood vessels around the gut constrict and allow increased blood flow to other parts of the body to increase cognitive processing, detoxification, etc. Fasting allows the human to achieve an uplifted state of being, and is a long-forgotten way of approaching God's Kingdom.

a reply to: cooperton

If ever there were a way for us humans to release our material constraints and approach spiritual reality, it would require some sort of dematerializing effort. This is explicitly discussed in gospel. It is fasting. Fasting, which is abstaining from food while still being able to drink water, allows you to dismiss material confines and begin to "see" spiritual truth:

As in my forties I did try fasting for nine days and had some spiritual as well as physical benefits. I did have nourishment in my water but no food. The nourishment was apple cider and honey. I have never discussed the fast with any other than my family simply because of self grandeur. If it does not edify God then it was of no use to me.

I did have a close doctor friend of mine who did keep a daily watch over me and the results of this fast were absolutely amazing. I believe what you say to be the truth in most of what you have said. I would not recommend a fast without consultation before the fast. It is not to be taken lightly nor foolishly. The object of the fast was to obtain enlightenment and a cure for a physical malady which was accomplished.

I do truly believe what you have said but again not all people are mindful enough for a proper fasting with prayer.

In my experience in life I believe a person must do all thing to edify God and not ourselves. It is very difficult not to lose that thought and get into self grandeur. Even a fast should be directed by the Creator and not by us.

originally posted by: Seede

In my experience in life I believe a person must do all thing to edify God and not ourselves. It is very difficult not to lose that thought and get into self grandeur. Even a fast should be directed by the Creator and not by us.

yeah, which is mentioned explicitly in Matthew 6:16-18. But, to what extent should the word be spread to others? When are we spreading God's word, and when are we simply trying to demonstrate self-grandeur? I am planning on doing a fast soon and this is the most troubling aspect. Should I or should I not tell people of what could be done and the benefits of fasting? I am also wondering if I should work during this time, because Jesus went off into the wilderness...

a reply to: cooperton

yeah, which is mentioned explicitly in Matthew 6:16-18. But, to what extent should the word be spread to others? When are we spreading God's word, and when are we simply trying to demonstrate self-grandeur? I am planning on doing a fast soon and this is the most troubling aspect. Should I or should I not tell people of what could be done and the benefits of fasting? I am also wondering if I should work during this time, because Jesus went off into the wilderness...

Good point. I think every situation is different.
To me a fast is a very sacred communication with God. It is not a display of faith or strength. If a fast is of God then God will provide the strength and give whatsoever pleases Him. You may not or you may have immediate answers and then you may never realize any sort of answer to your satisfaction. Prayers and fasts for healing have been complete failure to some and complete healing to others. It depends upon the perfect will of the Creator. We cannot set the standards or the rules.

Try a weekend fast with supplications and you may receive your answer. There are no rules of the length of a fast. God knows you better than you think you know yourself. It's what you are to Him that counts. Perhaps even a one day fast to see how you are affected by the fast. God bless--

originally posted by: cooperton

originally posted by: Seede

[quote]Seede: The spirit requires no food or water but the body does require food and water.

cooperton: This idea deserves its own thread but here goes a brief layover.

If ever there were a way for us humans to release our material constraints and approach spiritual reality, it would require some sort of dematerializing effort. This is explicitly discussed in gospel. It is fasting. Fasting, which is abstaining from food while still being able to drink water, allows you to dismiss material confines and begin to "see" spiritual truth:

I wander out of heavy body (into a higher frequency) every day. When experiencing this phenomenon I am not a material being; I am [as a soul/spirit] astral traveling. While in this state of being I can and do experience physical pain (as in falling off a ladder or falling from a cliff) I eat food; consume and can taste it, I have sex; experience orgasm without "waking up". One can loose the material heavy matter construct and as a higher form experience the same things; pain, pleasure/all senses alive STILL. What is the difference then. You do not have to be what you think is a solid being to traverse the astral. Not sure about the fasting denial unless forcing an objective that is perfectly natural.

originally posted by: cooperton

If ever there were a way for us humans to release our material constraints and approach spiritual reality, it would require some sort of dematerializing effort. This is explicitly discussed in gospel. It is fasting. Fasting, which is abstaining from food while still being able to drink water, allows you to dismiss material confines and begin to "see" spiritual truth:

...
Fasting has recently become a point of interest for the scientific community. Rats that fasted lived 50% longer than rats that were allowed to eat at their own will! This is a result that demonstrates the incredible power of fasting, and for humans I think the implications are revolutionary. When the body is in a fasted state, the blood vessels around the gut constrict and allow increased blood flow to other parts of the body to increase cognitive processing, detoxification, etc. Fasting allows the human to achieve an uplifted state of being, and is a long-forgotten way of approaching God's Kingdom.

Yes, fasting has incredible health benefits. Many times I have fasted from eating by just having two glasses of diluted, filtered, apple or carrot juice each day, and I did this for many weeks at a time. However I can readily do this because I always have eaten a healthy diet. I have been a raw vegan for many years now, and so have little need to fast for health reasons as my diet is very clean.

Fasting is an ordinary enough matter, really no big deal for the most part, and it does help one release all kinds of physical, even emotional, obstructions relative to our body and life energy.

Of course, fasting must be done intelligently, and in consultation with one's doctor or otherwise qualified health practitioner. If one has eaten a lot of junk food or foods filled with pesticides, etc., for a long time, the diet should be changed to a more healthy one first, otherwise the toxicity that is released from a fast can be quite uncomfortable, etc.

After the initial purification, fasting definitely has an uplifting effect - and I agree, the mind's capacities are heightened. There can be a sense of spiritual upliftment, even a movement above the normal states of the body-mind. Combined with meditation, one might even feel something of what Jesus taught - being drawn to the Light above, as he called it, the Kingdom of God.

So fasting gives the body-mind and life energy usually a much needed break from the heavy effects too much food and food of bad quality have.

However, even the apparently spiritual effects of fasting are temporary in any case, though can certainly inspire a deeper, even spiritual, perspective on life itself. Fasting most certainly can be a very healthy discipline because it gives the body a chance to expel much of the stored toxins we get from the incredible amount of crap that the food industry calls food. This process usually results in a renewed sense of energy.

Thank you for the post including what Jesus recommended. His two great commandments to love God with the whole body-mind, etc., and one's neighbor as oneself also suggest a need for real purification of the body-mind.

There is no way to come up to loving God with the whole body, mind, etc., without it being at least purified to a great degree. Fasting definitely helps with this, and was a very likely discipline Jesus gave his most serious and true followers to support the bodily equanimity needed to receive his spiritual transmission.