Some insight for westerners who support Russian expansion into Crimea and eastern Ukraine.

a reply to: tadaman

That's nice

Except that polls from several points of view have been made and all of them show, to the dismay of EU, that crimeans actually feel pretty good about having been annexed here one year later.

a reply to: flice

No, they are happy about being free from the Ukraine. That doesnt mean they like being under rule from Moscow. When asked if they consider Russia their homeland over 80% say NO....

Go ahead. Look at the questions asked and the results.

a reply to: Dimithae

I'm perfectly aware of US history and we'll you bought into some lies yourself. PM me and we can discuss to avoid thread drift. Let's just say Indians didn't understand European property rights therfore didn't understand how land can be purchased.The US govt made really bad decisions but understand even Indians had more rights than black slaves. The biggest problem is they were nomadic and that just can't happen when you have property owners. This is why when the US purchased Alaska Eskimos went a problem they understood property rights. Had the Indians realized that they were tricked. To thwm they thought they were fooling thw white man everyone knows you can't own the earth. So when they sold property they didn't understand why these people would pay them for something that's free.

a reply to: tadaman

Is that indicative of them not wanting Russia there? No. You are using a poll from before all this happened to justify your stance of saving the crimeans from themselves. They had two options Kiev or Moscow, Kiev ain't working out too well for the donbass region now is it? Is this thread a way to show everyone why Crimea would be better off dying by the hands of the thugs in Kiev than enjoying the peace they do? Because that is what would have happened in your outcome.

a reply to: sosobad

well for one,

I dont even disagree with them leaving the Ukraine if thats what they want.

They wanted and have always wanted independence from others who have ALWAYS looked to take them over.

If you read a little history you will find that Russias solution to Crimea was to just import people into Crimea that Russia wanted so as to serve Russian needs. Did you know that Russia under Stalin wanted to make Crimea a jewish homeland? Yes. They wanted to turn Jews into farmers and make Crimea a bread basket for Russia. When Stalin got it in his head that Jews in crimea were not useful to him, he had them all shipped elsewhere or just shot on the spot.

All throughout this whoring of Crimean lands Russia never gave a damn about the locals.

NOW? They want to make Crimea a vacation spot again, turning a proud and unique people into a service oriented class of waiters and call girls.

Like I said before. If Russia would have left after "liberating them" I would have respected it all. They stayed and flew a Russian flag over it. Crimeans would be happier to be left alone to rule themselves. In the mean time I actually applaud them milking this situation for all its worth. I hope its all worth it though once the fan fare dies out and the press goes home things will change for them and reflect their history. Thats when "BECAUSE I SAY SO" starts to ring from Moscow and at that point they are screwed and alone.

I dont want to save Crimeans from themselves...LOL. I want Russia to cut the crap and stop making situations that are ripe for war.

EDIT TO ADD:
Also, the referendum was a little ...off.

Two questions asked. 1 Do you want crimea to be independent...or 2 for it to join Russia....

How can people even vote to stay in the Ukraine? There was no option. Also, there was plenty of pamphlets and propaganda spread around that read much like the comments here...I am serious. Some of the crap being spewed uses the same wording....lol “In our many centuries of history, tens of thousands of sons of Russia have sacrificed their heads to give [Crimea] freedom". Thats from a pamphlet from a voting center. Disinfo much?

There was everything from highways signs reading "become one with russia" to propaganda air dropped on communities. Um, nothing from the other side of the argument. Also Russian flags were up EVERYWHERE before the vote was held. I think the message was clear. A vote when the decision has already been made? Really? Considering that the lands NATIVE inhabitants, the Tartars, boycotted the vote, and they represent 15% of the population, I would say that this is all a little off.

a reply to: dragonridr

I have PM you and waiting.
second line

a reply to: tadaman

Crimeans would be happier to be left alone to rule themselves.

Crimeans would be dying alongside the people of eastern Ukraine, saying otherwise is ludicrous. You think Kiev would have simply given them a free pass if they wanted autonomy? So your position is instead of receiving Russian help like they wanted they should be left to die. 100% you are trying to save the people from themselves, so you want Russia to cut their crap and leave the people of Crimea to die horrible deaths.

You do know Stalin is dead right? Unless you think he has somehow returned from the dead he is has nothing to do with what is happening now. Even original EuroMadain supporters are turning their backs on Kiev as they can see what is after taking hold of their country

a reply to: sosobad

well it sounds to me that YOUR argument is that they would die like dumb animals if left to run their own nation. AND IT IS a nation unto itself.

I guess Russia is there to save them from themselves...so thank God huh.

And yes, I do know Stalin is dead. But since Russia has never given a damn about Crimea beyond its own needs I thought it proper to throw in some historical context. I mean damn, native americans, the US and everything else this thread has touched upon doesnt really have much to do with this at all...yet the people love it like fat kids love cake. Here are some vegetables....

Look, I dont really care. You can say mass. This is all a joke and not worth the war IT WILL bring. I hope Russia spends untold trillions defending Crimea and invading eastern Ukraine. When their economy collapses...Again, we will see who wants what.

a reply to: tadaman

Where did I say they couldn't run their own country? Where? I said they would be slaughtered like the people from eastern Ukraine by Kiev you denying that?

I can see now that you just actually hate Russians, you want their country to collapse. They oh so benevolent bs you are pushing for the crimeans is façade, you just want Russians to suffer. This probably why your thread has not been taken seriously.

a reply to: sosobad

Where did I say I hate Russians? I did not. I hate the Government there much like I would any government.

Also, I dont need for my thread to be taken seriously or not. I am not some pathetic loser who sits on the internet looking for approval by spewing the same tired BS others drool over. I actually came for conversation and if you didnt notice, I am being honest enough by taking the time to inform myself about the issue beyond blogs and MSM articles from either side. I F-ing read sir.

You said they would "die horrible deaths"....um, civil wars tend to have that happen. If Kiev is this horrible thing, and I am not saying it is or is not, then that is still a Ukranian Problem all day long.

You are talking to an American who is more than tired of the "noble actions" of governments who go to "SAVE OTHERS". Your exact argument here about the poor Ukranians is the one given to the American people for every police action we perform. Did you know that our government and that of Moscow only act to save innocent lives? How cool is that? What about the children sir?

Oh F-ing PLEASE.

a reply to: tadaman
You implied it

I hope Russia spends untold trillions defending Crimea and invading eastern Ukraine. When their economy collapses

I am not some pathetic loser who sits on the internet looking for approval by spewing the same tired BS others drool over.

And yet here you are on the internet writing threads for others.

I am being honest enough by taking the time to inform myself about the issue beyond blogs and MSM articles from either side

Yes you are just a beacon of critical thinking, you have one view your own, no matter what the crimeans want you know what's best for them.

I F-ing read sir.

Obviously not enough.

You said they would "die horrible deaths"....um, civil wars tend to have that happen. If Kiev is this horrible thing, and I am not saying it is or is not, then that is still a Ukranian Problem all day long.

So you do want the Crimeans to die.

How cool is that? What about the children sir?

Yes what about the children, the deaths of those children from the hands of the thugs in Kiev?

Oh F-ing PLEASE.

It's like debating with a chimp. Enjoy the rest of your terrible anology between the Crimeans and Basques as I fear to have anymore back and forth with you would be detrimental to my IQ.

a reply to: tadaman

You know, people often cite Iraq as an "unlawful invasion", but they don't want to say the same thing for the Russians which took BY FORCE Crimea. Putin is smarter than your average person, he had been sending waves of Russians into Crimea before all of this started, and they were allowed to vote in the referendum of Crimea even though they are RUSSIAN CITIZENS. The same thing with Russian soldiers that were sent there and were able to vote, in civilian clothes.

The Russian soldiers/pro-Russian forces took by force parliament in Crimea and flew ONLY the Russian flag BEFORE the referendum vote was even called for.

The airports, and other major transportation venues were taken over by Pro-Russian forces that were armed to the teeth...

It was all done through a script, with actors (Russians acting as if they were Crimeans) already on the stage. Even though at first Putin and the Russian officials claimed and swore their souls to hell that they had no plans to invade either crimea or eastern Ukraine... We know they lied about Crimea, and they are lying about eastern Ukraine. You don't send Russian soldiers to fight there, and make contracts with "global mercenaries to win eastern Ukraine" unless you want to invade it...

originally posted by: pexx421
a reply to: tadaman

How about this for a point of view. If Russia had not done what they did then right now Crimea would resemble donetsk and lughansk. And have massive civilian casualties just like those two places.

So your solution is to "be French" and just surrender to an invading army?
I'm sure the people of Crimea currently being abused by their occupying army feel a warm and fuzzy feeling inside knowing that their fellow citizens rolled over to let the brutes take control of part of a country that IS NOT THEIRS.

Regardless of what the people of Crimea supposedly wanted, Crimea is a part of Ukraine, NOT RUSSIA. Russia does not have the imagined right to redraw borders and claim parts of other nations as it wishes, through force.

It's impossible to have a free and fair referendum when you have tanks, armed men and constant violence in the streets. It's unacceptable that Russia thinks it has a right to do this, and this is why the world should rejecting it entirely.

I think most of us know what's going to happen in the future anyway. Russia is gearing up to steal back the Baltic states and recreate the old USSR. This will not be permitted to happen and we will end up in a regional war. We'll slam Putin until he gives up, probably after making a few territorial gains here and there, but Russia will then face years of resistance in those nations as the people fight against occupation. Eventually Russia will be forced to give most of the territory it stole back, as its economy collapses entirely and it experiences a revolution.

We'll be seeing another fall of the USSR in less than ten years, the Russian people will turn on the Kremlin at some point. For many in the country the prospects are extremely bleak, with financial trouble increasing. Many have seen their mortgages DOUBLE over the last year, with no increase in wages and an increase in basic goods too.

The people will only take so much before they turn on their own government.

originally posted by: Dimithae
a reply to: noeltrotsky

When was the last time you were in Crimea? What did you see there? What is the weather like? It looks like a beautiful place.Would love one day to go there.

It was 3.5 years ago now. Went to Yalta with a couple day trips along the coast each direction. Bus trip from Odessa took forever it seemed. Never bothered with Simferopol...not much to see there. It was summer and the weather was great! Pretty hot during the day but much better in the late afternoon. Didn't have anywhere to stay until getting off the bus and talking to a guy standing around the bus station. Ended up a couple blocks away from the beach. Well, it's a rock beach, but the main boardwalk nonetheless. Pretty Russian touristy if you know that style. The main beach was wall to wall sunbathers. Took a day cruise along the coast as well, great views of the rich that line the hills.

Nice place, bit hard to get to, even more so now. I'd probably just do a Black Sea cruise if I was to do it all over again.

originally posted by: tadaman
You have been there. Tell me. If they had been offered to be independent of BOTH Russia and the Ukraine would they have not voted in the vast majority to be free of both Kiev and Moscow?

No, they would have likely voted to join Russia. I suspect the vote would have been around 60% with the other 40% split between staying with Ukraine or being independent. Just my educated guess of course. If the government in Ukraine wasn't in turmoil it could be a different vote. The people there do not have a burning desire to have their own country. The Tatars have been pacified somewhat and the leaders are pragmatic for the most part. Great suffering has a way of doing that to people. The Tatars would like to be independent but they are a small group.

Zbigniew Brzezinski has some very interesting things to say about what Putin is doing.

Putin ‘wants to rebuild USSR with Ukraine’ – Brzezinski

Brzezinski: “Well, he is certainly following a calculus, but a rather short-term one in my judgement. For example, he disguised his troopers that he sent into Crimea as, somehow or other, people from Mars: you don’t know where they are from, right. That’s deniability. That’s a little bit like mafia sending in gangsters to kill someone with their faces covered. Okay, so what does that accomplish? Everybody knows that they are from Russia, but still there is deniability. My guess is that, when he did that, he was contemplating the possibility of then going further. If there is no reaction from the Ukrainians in general and if there is no reaction from the West, he can pull these stunts off in eastern Ukraine, take over district by district, and then eventually dismember Ukraine and then impose a government of his choice in Kyiv.”

At the same time, we can assure the Russians that it is not our objective to seduce Ukraine into NATO, which the Russians might view as a military threat. And, incidentally, a large percentage of Ukrainians don’t want to be in NATO, while they do want to be independent. So, it’s quite consistent with political reality. But at the same time we have to convey to him very quietly, not in a fashion that humiliates him, that if he is not inclined to accommodate or if he is even inclined to go further and threaten Ukraine, there will be consequences. If the Russians refuse to accommodate in Crimea, I guarantee you the vast majority of Ukrainians who are not anti-Russian [now] will turn anti-Russian.”

www.euronews.com...

Interesting insight indeed.

a reply to: learnatic

I think to most readers its patently clear that Russia is nothing more than defend itself and that the US is very much on the offensive in the Ukraine and wants to take over Russia and then be the sole ramaining superpower.

If that were true they would have dealt that blow when The Soviet Union fell in the early 90's when they would have been at their weakest, not 25 years later when they have rebuilt to a somewhat stronger country than they were.

a reply to: learnatic

Thanks for spamming yet another thread with your quote which has nothing to do with the OP. What is that, 100 threads spammed now? Here's your medal!!!

a reply to: learnatic

Except that the US isnt the center of the universe. Its naive for people to think that Russia is this noble thing. There is no such thing as a benevolent super power.

Can you quote a conservative hardliner from the far right on the political spectrum FROM RUSSIA? Just to balance things out.

You do realize they do exist and are the carbon copy of their American counterpart.

I am not denying that the US government is flawed. You have to be retarded to think that the Government of Moscow is benign.

Freaking retarded.