Some insight for westerners who support Russian expansion into Crimea and eastern Ukraine.

a reply to: tadaman

US had nothing to do with it of course.

So you`re seeing with the historic ties of the US also constantly the native Americans ?

originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
a reply to: dragonridr

Yes it was in the making for years, Soros was already involved since `89.

Once the ultra nationalists groups started with the protests after given the signal to do so, others joined them because they wanted Yanochovich also gone.

But the deal to get a Government of national unity was done so there could be new elections, but there had to become war in the Ukraine and so a US planned coup took place.

Wrong first nationalists were not the one that started the protests they show up when the police started shooting at protestors. Nothing gets anarchists and right wing nuts going like a chance to go aft we r the authorities. Oh and check when that speech was given at the Rada ot wasn't a prediction this was an acusations made after maiden. In fact he gets beat up because of this video.

a reply to: noeltrotsky

When was the last time you were in Crimea? What did you see there? What is the weather like? It looks like a beautiful place.Would love one day to go there.

a reply to: noeltrotsky
I do agree.

That is the age old story with Crimea. It is the land of the Tartars. Always has been....Period.

Importing Russians or anyone else doesnt change that. We are talking about near millenia of occupation by a people compared to a couple hundred years of forced relocation and passive invasion.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

I dont understand. I am serious. What are you trying to say?

EDIT TO ADD:
Here is a shot in the dark: Are you saying that the US did something similar with native Americans? If so how does that directly relate to Crimea? I would say that the native Americans arent going to war over history they didnt live themselves.

a reply to: dragonridr

So you really believe the Ukrainian 5th column didn`t start the protest in disguise with activating social media just as the US has admitted being done also with the Arab spring?

It must be nice being in such a dreamland permanently.

a reply to: tadaman

The US isn`t the one plunging us into war, but it`s Eastern Europe, you really do think that ?

You are the one who can only see the Tartar part of Crimea history, that means, when it comes to US history you can also only see the native American part of it.

a reply to: noeltrotsky

No I have never been sadly. Like most people travel for me is expensive and impractical.

That doesnt mean I cant find some truth from my part of the world about that part.

I know that many identify as Russian ethnically. They speak Russian and have similar cultural ties. They are also not Russian by having a much richer history after being a hot spot of convergence of empires both in times of peace and war throughout history. To me, Crimea is as Russian as Australia is English.

They voted to leave the Ukraine. The only option offered to them to do so was to join Russia.

You have been there. Tell me. If they had been offered to be independent of BOTH Russia and the Ukraine would they have not voted in the vast majority to be free of both Kiev and Moscow?

What does that tell you?

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Yes, Eastern Europe is a mess and instead of embracing peace and just letting the party continue so some healing can occur, they are now engaging in flag pissing contests...again.... that will spill over to the rest of Europe and then the world. Just like both freaking world wars.

The US is isolated enough and has enough natural resources to ignore the rest of the world and never look back. We do what we do because there is no avoiding other peoples stupidity.

I do consider native Americans. I never said they dont have legitimate grievances with what was done to them ALL THROUGHOUT the Americas. They arent in arms about it though. They live and die peacefully....I still dont see how that is not a cheap shot at the US when we are talking about Crimea and Russia.

Its hard to talk when emotions and pride are running so high as provoke taking cheap shots instead of making progress with the subject at hand.

a reply to: tadaman

Nothing to do with a cheap shot, you`re the one coming up with the analogy of only able to see that when regarding the history of Crimea...

Let`s face it, like I said earlier, you use every analogy to suite your case, but when the same analogy is being done back, it`s cheap, that means yours was also cheap.

Nothing can happen to America so the rest of the World can burn of course.

We do what we do because there is no avoiding other peoples stupidity.

I agree with you there, while less, they are still stupid enough to let America do this to The World.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Meh, the US is now the center of the universe.....

I would assume that someone so aware of the US´s vices would think otherwise.

My examples were neither about the US, Russia or even Crimea.

My examples were far removed by region, people, and time. That is why they were offered...so as to provide insight of something else we already understand and apply it to something most in the west simply dont.

I will ask again. What does ANYTHING of the US have to do with Russia and the Ukraine?

How would anything said about the US give a reliable counter argument filled with insight?

Here is some insight using your example though: You say the US was wrong to relocate native Americans and take over their land. OK....so how is Russia doing it to Crimea and the Tartars any better?

If the US is wrong for doing it,....is Russia then as wrong when it does it?

EDIT TO ADD:
Texas did vote to join us after all...we bought much of the land we own according to the sales price listed by the inhabitants...thats legal...
We BOUGHT most of the US....legally, we did not get it through conquest...but that was wrong according to you no? So how is this right....even if it IS all legal?

a reply to: tadaman

Here is some insight with your example though. You say the US was wrong to relocate native Americans and take over their land. OK....so how is Russia doing it to Crimea and the Tartars any better?

I can see more in Crimean history as only that part, so why throw your stuff on my plate ?

I will ask again. What does ANYTHING of the US have to do with Russia and the Ukraine?

Ukraine has become an American puppet state with a Government which jumps when Washington says jump.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Dont take this the wrong way sir, but english is not your first language right?

I can see more in Crimean history as only that part, so why throw your stuff on my plate ?

WHAT?


The Ukraine is an American puppet state? Ah...and thats not typical Russian propaganda HOW? They cant even join NATO without threats from Moscow of nuclear war...LOL

a reply to: tadaman

I have to say, the only thing you have given me was an insight in a limited view, and it wasn`t very enlightening.

originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Meh, the US is now the center of the universe.....

I would assume that someone so aware of the US´s vices would think otherwise.

My examples were neither about the US, Russia or even Crimea.

My examples were far removed by region, people, and time. That is why they were offered...so as to provide insight of something else we already understand and apply it to something most in the west simply dont.

I will ask again. What does ANYTHING of the US have to do with Russia and the Ukraine?

How would anything said about the US give a reliable counter argument filled with insight?

Here is some insight using your example though: You say the US was wrong to relocate native Americans and take over their land. OK....so how is Russia doing it to Crimea and the Tartars any better?

If the US is wrong for doing it,....is Russia then as wrong when it does it?

EDIT TO ADD:
Texas did vote to join us after all...we bought much of the land we own according to the sales price listed by the inhabitants...thats legal...
We BOUGHT most of the US....legally, we did not get it through conquest...but that was wrong according to you no? So how is this right....even if it IS all legal?

They aren't the same and people that think they are doesn't have a grasp on history. The British and spanards conquered the native Amaricans US cane in later and bought the territory. Not to mention hundreds of years while the tartar actually still have people alive telling them about Stalin and his purges. The US government mistake was thinking they could control a group who by their very nature demanded freedom. But you could argue even 200 years ago the US treated Indians far better than Stalin who sent them to work camps with 90 percent mortality rates. Stalin was much like hitlers solution for jews. And by the way their persecution continues under the Russian Federation .

Russia doesn't learn from mistakes they seem destined to repeat them over and over. The Tartar are not the only group trying to get out from under the Russian boot. And just wait until China starts trouble for them in asia. Putin started something that future historians will look back on with shock he was that stupid. Russia is setting up a situation like Rome their going to keep having to defending their borders from locals and won't have the military to do so.

a reply to: BornAgainAlien

the only thing you have given me was an insight in a limited view

I dont understand how. This conversation is going swimmingly for me and I have learned a great deal....

I think that problem you have is entirely on you and is thanks to your hatred of the US..... I apologize for nothing.

originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: MALBOSIA

Well I am trying to get westerners who support RUSSIA to see a clearer picture of that which they support. I am not even "blaming" or "shaming" Russia. This is for westerners. I actually understand Russias stance. I just dont support it.

I wonder if you say the same to other people who advocate FOR Russia. This thread is not even against Russia but you try to shoot me down. Why?

And we are supposed to take your 'statements' as fact without any supporting references regarding the history of the area or actual reporting from the those knowledgeable of the region. I think that is disingenuous at best.

The situation is more complex then I can truly understand but a recent (February 2015) article by investigative reporter John Pilger made me question the reality of the situation even more:

No western leader has spoken up about the revival of fascism in the heart of Europe - with the exception of Vladimir Putin, whose people lost 22 million to a Nazi invasion that came through the borderland of Ukraine. At the recent Munich Security Conference, Obama's Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs, Victoria Nuland, ranted abuse about European leaders for opposing the US arming of the Kiev regime. She referred to the German Defence Minister as "the minister for defeatism". It was Nuland who masterminded the coup in Kiev. The wife of Robert D. Kagan, a leading "neo-con" luminary and co-founder of the extreme right wing Project for a New American Century, she was foreign policy advisor to Dick Cheney.

Nuland's coup did not go to plan. Nato was prevented from seizing Russia's historic, legitimate, warm-water naval base in Crimea. The mostly Russian population of Crimea - illegally annexed to Ukraine by Nikita Krushchev in 1954 - voted overwhelmingly to return to Russia, as they had done in the 1990s. The referendum was voluntary, popular and internationally observed. There was no invasion.

and then the thing to think about:

The rulers of the world want Ukraine not only as a missile base; they want its economy. Kiev's new Finance Minister, Nataliwe Jaresko, is a former senior US State Department official in charge of US overseas "investment". She was hurriedly given Ukrainian citizenship. They want Ukraine for its abundant gas; Vice President Joe Biden's son is on the board of Ukraine's biggest oil, gas and fracking company. The manufacturers of GM seeds, companies such as the infamous Monsanto, want Ukraine's rich farming soil.

Above all, they want Ukraine's mighty neighbour, Russia. They want to Balkanise or dismember Russia and exploit the greatest source of natural gas on earth. As the Arctic ice melts, they want control of the Arctic Ocean and its energy riches, and Russia's long Arctic land border. Their man in Moscow used to be Boris Yeltsin, a drunk, who handed his country's economy to the West. His successor, Putin, has re-established Russia as a sovereign nation; that is his crime.

johnpilger.com...

There is considerable information between the two quotes to think about. The demonizing of Putin and the Russian Federation only being one.

I don't know the truth of the matter but do want to know both sides (all sides!!!!) of the conflict before I make a decision and would hope others would do the same.

In the US and the West, we are hearing only one side of the story - don't believe all you hear. Remember "the nurse an the dead babies", she was trained by the best propogandists to lie and convince the public of how horrible the Iraqis were.

a reply to: dragonridr

The British and spanards conquered the native Americans US cane in later and bought the territory. Not to mention hundreds of years while the tartar actually still have people alive telling them about Stalin and his purges. The US government mistake was thinking they could control a group who by their very nature demanded freedom. But you could argue even 200 years ago the US treated Indians far better than Stalin who sent them to work camps with 90 percent mortality rates

Being part American Indian I can answer to that. First off,you are making sound like it was JUST the Brits and Spaniards that were wiping out American Indians.In fact NO. The US Calvary was making huge head way in annihilating them.Though some land was bought from other countries,I won't argue that issue,but the westward expansion was solely on the US government.

The US governments mistake was not in trying to control a freedom loving people.It was in trying to kill as many of them as they could,while under the US flag and a white flag of surrender. Every time they told the Indians to disarm and that they would be taken to a 'safe' place,they would then open fire on them killing most and leaving the rest injured and or demoralized. Even when the Indians were where they were given permission to be and hunt where they were told,the army would come in and start killing them. When asked by news paper reporters at the time,the answer for this behavior was "the only good Indian is a dead Indian" and when asked about if they would kill children of the Indians the answer was "nits make lice". Now,tell me please,with that attitude,they JUST wanted to control them,right? I think not.

The US government has never treated Indians better than someone else.Only someone that doesn't know the history would say such a thing. The Indians were purposely killed,cut up,run off their lands,starved out,watched their children be killed or taken away for "reeducation",molested,fetus' cut out of women,etc. I don't know what your idea of better is to be honest,but I hear that Hitler took lessons on how to move mass amounts of people from the US Governments treatment of the Indians. No stars for you.

a reply to: FyreByrd

And we are supposed to take your 'statements' as fact without any supporting references regarding the history of the area or actual reporting from the those knowledgeable of the region. I think that is disingenuous at best.

Do what you want. I only referenced known history. Do you want me to quote history texts or something?

Its funny your post references Russian losses to the Nazis. How many Polish people do you think Russians killed when they were allied with Germany AND STARTED WW2 when they invaded Poland with hitler?

That blog is VERY biased. Not a little, VERY.

I see allot of talk about the US....and very little about Russia or Crimea. I dont want to sound like a broken record but this is all in line with typical Russian propaganda. WHAT THE HELL does the US have to do with Crimea? That hit piece you referenced is half about the US.....???
It is also VERY thin on facts or proof of what it says. Should we just ASSUME it is true with nothing to substantiate this crap?

LOL

Also, the vote could have been to join north Korea and they would have voted yes if it meant greater independence which Russia has promised them. Time will tell if Russia can give them the freedom they want and not have the rest of Russia get pissed that they dont enjoy it as well. Also, they wont get the freedom they were promised. Thats what they voted for.

They could have been asked to vote on joining Guatemala and they would have said yes. They just wanted to break away from the Ukraine because they felt threatened culturally. The Ukraine was looking to force language and customs on them so as to make a more unified country across the board. MANY countries do and have done this. They were scared of that possibility.

The same polls people keep saying prove that they wanted to break away from the Ukraine, which is true, SAY THAT CRIMEANS DONT SEE RUSSIA AS THEIR HOMELAND. Go ahead, see for yourself. They speak Russian. Big freaking deal. I speak English does that make me a citizen of the UK? How about Australians? Are they English as well?

EDIT TO ADD:
Because your little blog there tries to make putin in to this angel of mercy on earth...

Putin is a pampered billionaire jerk who spends his free time getting plastic surgery like a vain little barbie doll and the rest spewing propaganda. He idolizes people like Stalin who made Russia suffer untold horrors for the comfort of Stalin and his whore hag house maid....and his buddies....Putin made his start in this world through the intelligence community. Saying he is just doing the right thing is like getting a CIA man and saying the same if he ran for office....LIKE IF BUSH SR was made out to be a great old guy. Putin is Russias Bush SR....All he needs is a retarded son and he is a clone of Bush. THEN after his start he made a living off thieving and helping disgusting oligarchs steal with both hands from the Russian people. All Putin has done is nationalize privately owned businesses and buy up industries that HE NOW OWNS personally and helped to ruin by his antics.

Great guy...sure..

Oh and he made a viable reason to start WW3 like the Nazis before him who wanted to expand beyond their borders and used the defense of Germany and its ethnic cousins elsewhere as the excuse.....

a reply to: FyreByrd

This blogger is clueless the black Sea fleet is outdated and can be bottled up any time they want. To take it is just stupid let Russia keep spending money on a port that can be easily destroyed. It has no strategic value to anyone other than trade.

As far as natural gas that's a European thing in the US most natural gas they produce is for export. Strategic value for US is none again false asymptomatic especially when the US is setting on the largest pile reserve on the planet.

And last got to love revisionist history they are trying to say Krushchev didn't have the right to redraw borders of the Soviet Union. Wow that one's hard to swallow and saved the best for last. This is kind of a joke Russian farmland really come on US production of food dwarfs Russia and Russian soil though good for wheat without lots of fetilizers growing other vegetables is near impossible. Russian farm land is plentiful and dirt cheap the reason simple it takes alot of work and money to grow food in Russian soil.

OK think I hit all our bloggers points but I'll end by saying the last thing the US wants is Russian land no one could occupy Russia except maybe the Chinese they have the manpower. And anyone who thinks that's a goal is just dilusional. Now had he said the plan was to stop Russian gas from going to Europe well I might agree with that. Since Putins actions is creating a huge boon for the US as they start to ship gas to Europe. The US not being a big user of natural gas it needs to go somewhere.