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Some insight for westerners who support Russian expansion into Crimea and eastern Ukraine.

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posted on Mar, 23 2015 @ 07:49 PM
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So I was thinking about the Russia /Ukraine issue.

I notice that most here cant really understand the issue. Not from the west. Thats why I think people are quick to support Russia's stance on it.

These people want to argue that Crimeans are more Russian than Ukrainian. That they want to be Russian.

If you put even a little effort in informing yourself you discover that Crimerans are very much Crimerans over anything else. Their loyalty is to Crimea, not the Ukraine and not even Russia. They want to speak Russian regionally, want to think of themselves as ethnic Russians, but they dont see themselves as part of the Russian federation. They are like Texans. Texans are first and foremost Texans. They are Americans sure, some of our most loyal and true, but only if the fact that they are the LONE STAR state is respected. Infringe on that and they are no ones friend and Texas is no mans land.

The same is true for Crimea. They are culturally influenced by Russia...like all the east of Ukraine. That doesnt mean that they ARE RUSSIANS.
Saying otherwise is like saying that if one day enough of California speaks spanish and shares cultural practices with Mexico that they should be allowed to carve away part of the US and give it to Mexico....

Another example that I think really fits and can help us in the west better understand this dilemma is the Basque non-nation caught between France and Spain.

What would you think if FRENCH Basques tried to break away...and join Spain. The south of France where most are most certainly BASQUE French wants to become BASQUE Spaniards...what would we think? What would we think if Spain then sent its military as well as retired military to support BASQUE security forces (rebel separatists)....in France?

That is what is happening in Crimea. You have a culturally off people from the rest of their country who identify with themselves over the nation they are surrounded by, being taken over by a nation (Russia) on the border of that one they are surrounded by (Ukraine) who with which is shared more of a loose cultural identity. This loose cultural identity is the pretense for aggressive expansionism by Russia. Not by Crimea, who if not for Russia, would never have thought about breaking away from the Ukraine.

Basques are more similar to people of Northern Spain than they are to the French. Would it be as righteous of Spain to take the south of France under this pretence as it is for Russia to take the East of Ukraine?



edit on 3 23 2015 by tadaman because: (no reason given)




posted on Mar, 23 2015 @ 07:57 PM
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a reply to: tadaman

Do you know any Crimeans and Basques, or are you just making up stuff ?



posted on Mar, 23 2015 @ 08:00 PM
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Ask any of those Crimean business men or women who had their businesses and property stripped from them and handed over to one of Putin's cronies or some other well-connected Russian, which side they want to be on. I never once believed Crimeans viewed themselves as ethnically aligned with either Ukraine or Russia, that's just an excuse by Putin to permit the annexation and looting of Crimea.

Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation

In the year following the annexation, armed men seized various Crimean businesses, including banks, hotels, shipyards, farms, gas stations, a bakery, a dairy, and Yalta Film Studio.


Crimea's New Russian Overlords Are Seizing Thousands Of Businesses

But an Associated Press investigation throughout this peninsula the size of Massachusetts found many instances of less noble practices: legal owners strong-armed off their premises; buildings, farms and other prime real estate seized on dubious pretenses, or with no legal justification at all; non-payment of the compensation mandated by the Russian constitution; and targeting of assets belonging to or used by independent news media, the Crimean Tatar ethnic minority and the pro-Kiev branch of the Orthodox Church.

In a preliminary estimate, Ukraine's Justice Ministry told AP that around 4,000 enterprises, organizations and agencies have had their property expropriated.


It was just an outright theft: Putin stole a country.



posted on Mar, 23 2015 @ 08:06 PM
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Crimea... What really happened?



posted on Mar, 23 2015 @ 08:07 PM
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a reply to: tadaman

Why are you telling us this?

Why do you care how westerners see Russia. We westerners have our own dirty laundry to deal with. Pointing the "shame" finger at Russia is not only counter productive but it also cements our ignorance towards our own short comings.



posted on Mar, 23 2015 @ 08:08 PM
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a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Or this one



posted on Mar, 23 2015 @ 08:12 PM
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originally posted by: tadaman

They are like Texans. Texans are first and foremost Texans. They are Americans sure, some of our most loyal and true, but only if the fact that they are the LONE STAR state is respected. Infringe on that and they are no ones friend and Texas is no mans land.


I did a quick search and was surprised to see Texas at number 31 on a list of states with the most guns.
I live in Texas and I don't know a lot of people who don't have a gun.
I'm sure it would be a hornet's nest if they were invaded.
If Texas is more than they can handle, they don't even want to think about invading Kentucky.
Mountainous terrain and more guns than any other state in the union.



posted on Mar, 23 2015 @ 08:13 PM
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a reply to: MALBOSIA

Well I am trying to get westerners who support RUSSIA to see a clearer picture of that which they support. I am not even "blaming" or "shaming" Russia. This is for westerners. I actually understand Russias stance. I just dont support it.

I wonder if you say the same to other people who advocate FOR Russia. This thread is not even against Russia but you try to shoot me down. Why?



posted on Mar, 23 2015 @ 08:15 PM
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a reply to: BornAgainAlien

I am part Basque. I am more Asturian though. I am VERY familiar with the Basque. I have spent considerable time reading about Crimea like most people...its in the news and all...

I have actually had similar conversations with people in Basque country where they explained their loyalty to neither France nor Spain.

EDIT TO ADD:
If given half a chance to be MORE basque than either French or Spaniard, they would jump and support who ever offered them that. To avoid hostilities both France and Spain show a united front against separatists on either side of the border. The concept of one using the basque to take the others land has been well studied. In the end if either side let the Basque secede there is a strong possibility that they would just end up joining the other country and the other half of their people in it eventually.

That would be war for both countries thanks to a small group caught between their borders.


edit on 3 23 2015 by tadaman because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 23 2015 @ 08:19 PM
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My husband and I were travelling in the car the other day , we picked up two hitch hikers and they were from Russia .
They were backpacking , travelling and although the language was a problem , you know , how long you been here , where are you going next , plus I probably speak to fast for them
.
However when we said Putin lol big smiles, no problem understanding how they felt , looking in the rear vision mirror, big smiles, my husband asked about the changes from how it used to be , and the general gist was that they liked the freedom better.

Thanks op for a place to post this. cheers.
1%



posted on Mar, 23 2015 @ 08:24 PM
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originally posted by: MALBOSIA
a reply to: tadaman

Why are you telling us this?

Why do you care how westerners see Russia. We westerners have our own dirty laundry to deal with. Pointing the "shame" finger at Russia is not only counter productive but it also cements our ignorance towards our own short comings.



So it's okay for the Ukraine and the Crimea to suffer from Russian aggression just because the US did it before?
edit on 23-3-2015 by Greathouse because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 23 2015 @ 08:47 PM
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a reply to: tadaman

Maybe you should take the time to see the posted videos to know why they wanted to be become part of RF so badly.

And what if Spain got a new Franco and Basque Spain wanted to become part of France because Franco troops would cleanse them from Basque Spain ?



posted on Mar, 23 2015 @ 08:55 PM
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a reply to: BornAgainAlien

I am watching them.

It still doesnt negate the fact that what I said was true. I will let the RT one slide even though RT is a STATE owned business and this guy has been HIRED to make a piece on this essentially by the Russian government itself through state owned media....

What I said was that they have cultural ties with Russia. That doesnt mean they want to be Russian. They are 1000% Crimeans first and foremost.

Spain HAD A FRANCO, and France was wise enough to keep to themselves and their own Basques. If France sent in troops to "liberate" the Basque or cataluña from Franco, both France and Spain would still be fighting wars over it.

Crimea and the Ukraine will fight wars over this for many years. I hope it was worth it.

I know that the Basque lived through Franco and now are happy as pigs in filth. It was more worth it to just cut the crap and respect national borders as well as cultural identities....but separately so.




edit on 3 23 2015 by tadaman because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 23 2015 @ 08:57 PM
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a reply to: tadaman

You could be right about that, but my analogy is more as what the situation was.



posted on Mar, 23 2015 @ 09:02 PM
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originally posted by: tadaman
The same is true for Crimea. They are culturally influenced by Russia...like all the east of Ukraine. That doesnt mean that they ARE RUSSIANS.
Saying otherwise is like saying that if one day enough of California speaks spanish and shares cultural practices with Mexico that they should be allowed to carve away part of the US and give it to Mexico....




Except for a lot of them on the east side are Russians since medieval times and before. That is culturally, language, etc. Catherine the Great also relocated Russians to the area, as happened during/after WWII(Holodomor) and even in current times(prior to the past year or so).



posted on Mar, 23 2015 @ 09:03 PM
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a reply to: tadaman

You may as well have a look at some historic maps of the place . en.wikipedia.org...#/media/File:Chasaren.jpg



posted on Mar, 23 2015 @ 09:05 PM
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originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: MALBOSIA

Well I am trying to get westerners who support RUSSIA to see a clearer picture of that which they support. I am not even "blaming" or "shaming" Russia. This is for westerners. I actually understand Russias stance. I just dont support it.

I wonder if you say the same to other people who advocate FOR Russia. This thread is not even against Russia but you try to shoot me down. Why?



I'm not shooting you down. I am a westerner myself. But I do not see what difference it makes what westerners believe is "really" going on there unless I am being prepared to be convinced that we the west should intervene. My reaction to that is NO! we should NOT intervene.

Crimea is not a western responsibility. They have not asked for ours or anyone's help so I can not understand why people still make a "case" for Crimeans when they already made their case at the poles.



posted on Mar, 23 2015 @ 09:08 PM
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a reply to: tadaman

How about this for a point of view. If Russia had not done what they did then right now Crimea would resemble donetsk and lughansk. And have massive civilian casualties just like those two places. So yea, I'm really Sure Crimea is regretting Russia's casualty free "invasion" and the casualty free "false referendum" they are suffering through. In sure they also greatly regret that they are not able to participate in the press gang enlistment of everyone under 60, and the selling off of all public assets, reduction of pensions and minimum wage, and austerity that is being imposed on Kiev as well. They must really feel like they missed out on the winning lotto ticket thanks to Putin.



posted on Mar, 23 2015 @ 09:11 PM
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originally posted by: BornAgainAlien
a reply to: tadaman

Do you know any Crimeans and Basques, or are you just making up stuff ?


I would be inclined to agree with that, everybody and their granny has been invaders of that area over a long time, and probably the best deal they got came from Russia, which actually made the Crimea an autonomous part of Ukraine back a while..nobody appears to have yapped about that back then, nor about Sevastopol. However all that peninsula is now a self-declared democratic Republic without favour, and that means everybody, as in everybody...should be free to come and go. So having said that, it makes all the 'West's' rhetoric about Crimea null and void...hence the now silence about Crimea, and only Crimea's parliament can change what they have already done.



posted on Mar, 23 2015 @ 09:16 PM
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originally posted by: Greathouse

originally posted by: MALBOSIA
a reply to: tadaman

Why are you telling us this?

Why do you care how westerners see Russia. We westerners have our own dirty laundry to deal with. Pointing the "shame" finger at Russia is not only counter productive but it also cements our ignorance towards our own short comings.



So it's okay for the Ukraine and the Crimea to suffer from Russian aggression just because the US did it before?


I said the west, not the US. If we are just going to ignore the possibility that the west started the coup in the Ukraine, then I suppose that 'Miss USA' statement you just made would move me.




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