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Some insight for westerners who support Russian expansion into Crimea and eastern Ukraine.

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posted on Mar, 24 2015 @ 04:08 PM
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originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: sosobad

No you didnt.



3 posts up. Well done on showing your "adult" side.




posted on Mar, 24 2015 @ 04:10 PM
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a reply to: sosobad

Is this like the time you said your first post was about my OP and my example, when it was not?

Let me check.


EDIT TO ADD:
Ok, I checked. Yeah I addressed that. You were talking about the VOTE, not the poll as you said when you were trying to show face like a fool after your words are in black and white for all to just go back to and reread. There was not one or two or ANY options in the poll, since it is A POLL.....and it had a whole host of questions to answer with none to choose from....they were about language culture and identity. Not two choices of questions (that doesnt even make sense, think about it). You dont even know how to lie.

BUT You ARE a liar. This child is not impressed.


edit on 3 24 2015 by tadaman because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 24 2015 @ 04:17 PM
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a reply to: tadaman

I specifically responded to your post and showed you in a point by point. You can twist it anyway you want but it doesn't change the fact you are wrong. Such an enlightened mind like yours doesn't seem to be able to handle that.



posted on Mar, 24 2015 @ 04:26 PM
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a reply to: sosobad

No you didnt. Do you think people wont hit the back button? LOL

lame.

So it comes down to that. "you are wrong". Like I said your issue is with my OPINION....and I cant be wrong on that, its retarded to say so outright so you hinge your argument on me personally and my possible sentiment.

SO lame.


edit on 3 24 2015 by tadaman because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 24 2015 @ 04:28 PM
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a reply to: tadaman

No need to hit the back button here it is again


This was your post I was responding to


No, they are happy about being free from the Ukraine. That doesnt mean they like being under rule from Moscow. When asked if they consider Russia their homeland over 80% say NO....


To which I said


Is that indicative of them not wanting Russia there? No. You are using a poll from before all this happened to justify your stance of saving the crimeans from themselves.


This part wasn't about the poll, it was a comment on the situation of the war


They had two options Kiev or Moscow, Kiev ain't working out too well for the donbass region now is it?


Hence why I commented on the donbass region. They could either die by Kiev or live under Moscow. They live under Moscow and you know what they are happy about it no matter what fallacies you put forward.
edit on 24-3-2015 by sosobad because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 24 2015 @ 04:37 PM
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a reply to: sosobad

BUT dear sir, YOU SAID



I have totally lost you, where did I mention the choices in the poll?


And you did. You said they had the option of KIEV OR RUSSIA....which was wrong...It really is an insignificant mistake, but this whole process you are going through to save face is every word a detriment to your perceived character and integrity.

And lets not ignore that your first post was not as you said....


Go back and read my first post. I told you exactly why you comparison is moot but surprise surprise you ignored it with some post riddled with inaccurate information while telling me to get informed. The whole thread is indicative of your self nature, the title alone "Some insight for westerners" shows that you think your own opinion is cardinal law on the subject.


Your first post WAS NOT even remotely addressing the validity of my examples. That is what you were responding to. I included the pseudo psychoanalysis from your expert and trained self about my choice of title and possible sentiment.

Like I showed you for two pages, the one with incorrect facts, or a willing subversion of truth, or outright incoherence is you and any inaccurate information is on your part about the vote which did not have the two options you said it did.

Dont throw stones in a glass house sir. The one with inaccurate information is you. The emotional one attacking me personally instead of my argument is you. The one digging deeper is you.

Please, I am on vacation and have PLENTY of time. Lets do this all day. You only validate my claim that people in the west are grossly misinformed when it comes to Crimea and Russia in general. Especially those like yourself that are noticeably MORE vocal about the vices of the US while propping Russia up on a moral high ground.


P.S.
I gave you a star little guy. Its for effort.

Also, while I am at it, PLEASE for the FIRST TIME, list the inaccurate information you say I riddled this thread with, should be easy right???
FYI sparky, opinion isnt right or wrong. Its opinion....


edit on 3 24 2015 by tadaman because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 24 2015 @ 04:45 PM
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a reply to: tadaman

Ok I conceded that that word is supposed to have been vote not poll. But that's not the post we are talking about is it? So why mention it?

My first post totally was addressing the post I responded to care to show how specifically my first post is wrong.

Don't bother with anymore stars, you shouldn't need them to validate your posts.
edit on 24-3-2015 by sosobad because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 24 2015 @ 04:58 PM
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a reply to: sosobad

You said your first post addressed and rendered my examples moot. It did not by a LONG SHOT. You took issue with comparing Crimeans to the Basque several pages later in response to my statement that you have not even addressed the OP...which you have YET to even address a single example given as being valid or not.

You immediately alluded to possible sentiment / reason for this thread. You even negated "my solution" which I have YET to even offer..LOL




So why mention it?
We WERE talking about it, and I am now going to mention every inconsistency with your words and thoughts since you made big accusations of me riddling this thread with inaccurate information. (among other accusations)

SO LIST THOSE INACCURACIES DEAR SIR. I expect to see quite the list since I make lengthy posts and have stated MUCH for 4-5 pages.

Also, when you are big enough to take back all the vitriol and attitude you directed at me off the bat for simply holding an opinion that differs from your own, I will change my tone. We can start again whenever you are ready..


edit on 3 24 2015 by tadaman because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 24 2015 @ 05:12 PM
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a reply to: tadaman




Also, when you are big enough to take back all the vitriol and attitude you directed at me off the bat for simply holding an opinion that differs from your own, I will change my tone. We can start again whenever you are ready..


You don't want attitude from anyone stop calling people retarded (if you don't see why that is offensive to some people take a long hard look at yourself) and dicks. Conduct yourself in the manner you wish to be treated. That goes for posts directed at others too.



You took issue with comparing Crimeans to the Bssque...which you have YET to even address as a valid example or not.

Crimea was historically part of Russia, and (Nikita) Khrushchev gave it to Ukraine in a gesture that mystified some people in 1954, how in does that relate to the Basques, when did that happen to their land in the last 100 years? There is Crimeans living in Crimea now when it was part of Russia. The histories of both places are different not the same which makes the analogy between them moot.




I am now going to mention every inconsistency with your words and thoughts since you made big accusations of me riddling this thread with inaccurate information.


Except of course my first post we were talking about. Can you admit that you were wrong about it? Or will you ignore it again?
edit on 24-3-2015 by sosobad because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 24 2015 @ 05:20 PM
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a reply to: sosobad

I will not be politically correct. That is my choice. Please deal with it. Also, you are the only one I talked to like that, I wonder why?

The cremeans are like the Basque in that they are caught between two countries that they are part of, but ultimately are just surrounding them. They are both French and Spaniard. The Crimeans are both Russian and MANY MANY other things since for one, the current majority is not the historical population. The Tartars must be considered as well as EVERY influx of people who for centuries have been from everywhere in the world from Greece to Rome.

I would have just asked you to read the OP again, but hey, I will repeat myself if necessary. I really only want productive exchange. The Basque have been forced to live as French and Spaniards when they are not exactly either. The Crimeans have a similar situation.

ALSO, The Russian Crimea exited for only 170 years give or take. They spent MANY more hundreds of years under the ottoman empire and equally as long as Russia as part of other nations. I fail to see the relevance of the historicity of Russia's role beyond relatively recent history. If anything Russia`s claim to it is based off the efforts of Stalin and others like Catherine the Great who brought people in artificially to populate the lands with more loyal populations than the natives were or are. I will not go down that road since I am neither Russian nor Crimean, but from my POV, that is passive invasion later used to justify ownership. The Basques have had that happen to them all throughout their history...passive invasion is their eternal boogey man. Rome tried it and they fought hard to stay independent. Much like Crimea they were given semi autonomous rule no matter who controlled the peninsula.

So thats that example.

I dont understand your last sentence. We were talking about it. I will admit to anything I said that was wrong. I have done that several times in this thread and throughout my time on ATS and in life in general. Please do the same.

What did I say that you think was wrong?


edit on 3 24 2015 by tadaman because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 24 2015 @ 05:34 PM
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a reply to: tadaman

I even registered to thank you. The Ukrainian conflict had the dubious fortune to become the next pedestal on which anti-globalization and anti-NWO crowd decided to propel their argument. At this point no one is really concerned about nations and people caught in the crossfire. My advice to you is to ignore people implying you don't care about the deaths and mayhem of this war. That accusation would be more appropriate directed to the other side.
The tiles have arranged in such way that the prevailing sense of despair against the rich and powerful is making people seek their last hope with blind favouritism towards Russia, a potential ally (which is a ludicrous lie) and I very much doubt people will let go of this illusion soon. If ever.
You've got the gist of everything right. If anything, Crimea is Tatar's land and in their typical fashion, Russia already began to impose laws to re-evaluate the privatization of some of their land. Giving it away to government (to "businessmen" essentially) is the intention. They're trying to close ATR (TV channel). The only channel that covered what was actually happening in Crimea in real time. I guess it's personal for Putin and Co. Thousands of tatars have left Crimea already, here's to believing Kremlin won't exacerbate the issue further with half of the world watching.
Take a deep breath and do your thing. If people don't want to listen.. they won't no matter what information is presented or how you're conveying it. Take me for example, when Yanukovych went missing and turned up in Russia I argued with complete conviction that he couldn't have been bought. Because no amount of money would make anyone betray their country like that, especially someone who bathes in stolen money, there had to be some other reason for him doing this. Lol. Now it turns out he and his company of businessmen and deputies fled with 32 billions dollars. Disappointment in humanity: new level achieved.
edit on 24-3-2015 by 22zen22 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 24 2015 @ 05:37 PM
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a reply to: tadaman




I will not be politically correct. That is my choice. Please deal with it. Also, you are the only one I talked to like that, I wonder why?


Then don't expect people to treat you any better. And no I am not I've seen you doing it before.



The cremeans are like the Basque in that they are caught between two countries that they are part of, but ultimately are just surrounding them. They are both French and Spaniard. The Crimeans are both Russian and MANY MANY other things since for one, the current majority is not the historical population. The Tartars must be considered as well as EVERY influx of people who for centuries have been from everywhere in the world from Greece to Rome. I would have just asked you to read the OP again, but hey, I will repeat myself if necessary. I really only want productive exchange. The Basque have been forced to live as French and Spaniards when they are not exactly either. The Crimeans have a similar situation.


Except the two histories are totally different, yes they have a similar set up but the backgrounds to both make the situations different. It's like saying that a chicken is a duck because they look kinda similar. There isn't a war raging on in Spain or France.




What post are you talking about and what did I say that you think was wrong?





You lied.


You told me I lied in my first post show me.
edit on 24-3-2015 by sosobad because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 24 2015 @ 05:46 PM
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a reply to: sosobad

I will not address my choice of words or even apologize for my words when you didnt exactly keep your cool. Its not like you came in on the cordial horse of good manners.

But whatever. I assure you I dont care at all, so lets just let that slide and keep the party going.

The two histories are different. Thats obvious. The thing is that they are similar enough to make a comparison for the purpose of insight. The west understands the Basque issue rather well and as such it is a stepping stone for better understanding of the Crimea issue. Thats why I chose it. I could have just gone with Texas or other areas of Europe that had ethnic populations being fought over by a far off homeland that wanted to claim them along with the territory they occupy, but no one else is as defiant and unique as the Crimeans in the west as the Basque are. The mentality is similar IMO.

Maybe I am wrong and that was a poor choice of examples, but its all I could think of to get the conversation going so people would be inclined to read some history about the area and learn about the people there. Some people here have never even seen an image of Crimea much less ever read a single word about it before this whole situation broke out. That is a dangerous situation since allot is happening and people should do their best to stay aware.


As far as your post I said you lied on. I will rephrase it....you were incorrect in stating that your first post addressed my examples. This is the first we have spoken about it. I am happy to just say whatever and continue.


edit on 3 24 2015 by tadaman because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 24 2015 @ 05:52 PM
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a reply to: 22zen22

Thank you very much. I think we would agree on many things. I understand that I may have gotten some things wrong but ultimately I only want to fine tune what I know, not "lay it down". I am happy with the outcome since I did learn somethings. I am happier that you came along for the ride!

I am glad you joined ATS. Please stick around. Its pretty kick ass here. LOL

Again thank you for taking the time to comment.

Have a good one.
Hold it down.


edit on 3 24 2015 by tadaman because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 24 2015 @ 06:37 PM
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originally posted by: 22zen22
a reply to: tadaman

I even registered to thank you. The Ukrainian conflict had the dubious fortune to become the next pedestal on which anti-globalization and anti-NWO crowd decided to propel their argument. At this point no one is really concerned about nations and people caught in the crossfire. My advice to you is to ignore people implying you don't care about the deaths and mayhem of this war. That accusation would be more appropriate directed to the other side.
The tiles have arranged in such way that the prevailing sense of despair against the rich and powerful is making people seek their last hope with blind favouritism towards Russia, a potential ally (which is a ludicrous lie) and I very much doubt people will let go of this illusion soon. If ever.
You've got the gist of everything right. If anything, Crimea is Tatar's land and in their typical fashion, Russia already began to impose laws to re-evaluate the privatization of some of their land. Giving it away to government (to "businessmen" essentially) is the intention. They're trying to close ATR (TV channel). The only channel that covered what was actually happening in Crimea in real time. I guess it's personal for Putin and Co. Thousands of tatars have left Crimea already, here's to believing Kremlin won't exacerbate the issue further with half of the world watching.
Take a deep breath and do your thing. If people don't want to listen.. they won't no matter what information is presented or how you're conveying it. Take me for example, when Yanukovych went missing and turned up in Russia I argued with complete conviction that he couldn't have been bought. Because no amount of money would make anyone betray their country like that, especially someone who bathes in stolen money, there had to be some other reason for him doing this. Lol. Now it turns out he and his company of businessmen and deputies fled with 32 billions dollars. Disappointment in humanity: new level achieved.


Yes Russia has already started confiscating businesses in Crimea. Basically goons show up take over and declare it is now property of Crimea. Talk about a land grab but this policy started when they decided they could just claim assets of companies. Many business people are regretting their decision I'm sure. Than the Tartar community is being harassed and beaten this is a not so veiled way of getting them to leave. Never mind the fact they lived their for centutries.

We also know the voting was rigged Russia accidently admitted it in a report which they released. Let's not forget the threats and intimidation of Russian soldiers running around the tartar community didn't even vote because of fear and I'm sure many Ukrainians as well. I knew the vote was decided before the election when crimias parameters went to Russia before the election to discuss the transition got to love that one.
edit on 3/24/15 by dragonridr because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 24 2015 @ 06:47 PM
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a reply to: noeltrotsky

Lightening just struck me. For the first time, I actually have to agree with your primary argument. Man, What a shock! "Don't do me that way again".



posted on Mar, 24 2015 @ 07:28 PM
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a reply to: dragonridr

Crimean tatars are in difficult position. The safest strategy would be to keep low profile, which is difficult to do when tensions over new laws and regime rise. Russia on the other hand is relieving past, people are surprisingly uniformed in their opinions. Things are very black and white in perception, the whole nation is shifting towards radical ideas. On all the main channels it's been Donbass, Donetsk, Ukraine, Kiev over and over again for a year.

I don't think anybody really took Crimean elections seriously. There's a protocol to be followed in these events and USSR always took meaningless bureaucracy to heart. Especially for propaganda inside of the country. Are they rigged? Well sure, but well... everything is.



posted on Mar, 24 2015 @ 07:36 PM
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originally posted by: 22zen22
a reply to: dragonridr

I don't think anybody really took Crimean elections seriously. There's a protocol to be followed in these events and USSR always took meaningless bureaucracy to heart. Especially for propaganda inside of the country. Are they rigged? Well sure, but well... everything is.


Are you sure ?

It had a turn out of 83%, a lot of Ukrainians left and Tatars were boycotting it...so it might actually be the right outcome given the situation.

Russia had been doing a lot of polling prior to it, so they knew what the outcome would be.



posted on Mar, 24 2015 @ 08:01 PM
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originally posted by: BornAgainAlien

originally posted by: 22zen22
a reply to: dragonridr

I don't think anybody really took Crimean elections seriously. There's a protocol to be followed in these events and USSR always took meaningless bureaucracy to heart. Especially for propaganda inside of the country. Are they rigged? Well sure, but well... everything is.


Are you sure ?

It had a turn out of 83%, a lot of Ukrainians left and Tatars were boycotting it...so it might actually be the right outcome given the situation.

Russia had been doing a lot of polling prior to it, so they knew what the outcome would be.


Since Russians made up 58 percent of the population you don't think the numbers might be wrong ??



posted on Mar, 24 2015 @ 08:14 PM
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a reply to: BornAgainAlien

Many ethnic ukrainians left after the elections. Some left prior. Let me put it this way. I'm not 100% if the elections were conducted by the rule of law and had 83% turn out, the majority of Crimeans wouldn't choose to join Russia. That is, given couple of months, with Russian media putting good enough effort to create a mythos for fear and anger, with couple false flags. But the 83% turn out in Crimea occupied by Russian green men? This is not Europe, at least yet, here the elections are always rigged. Just as they are in Russia. The majority simply wouldn't show.

As for Russian polls, I have a bad news. Putin planned to take Crimea for quite some time, these polls are piece of theatre. There's also a recording, that confirms Kremlin specifically told the self-appointed leaders to rig all of the elections. I don't remember exactly, but it was something in line of "Are you dumb, what, you don't know how the elections are made? Just rig them". Loose translation from memory.



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