Neil DeGrasse Tyson: ET and DNA

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian

originally posted by: Scdfa

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: Scdfa
The real problem would be convincing others, which you are apparently have a problem doing

Don't worry, I understand what you were trying to say here, I think.

Yes, there are many factors that make raising awareness of alien contact difficult. I don't like to use the word "convince". No person can change another's mind, change comes from within. I can only raise awareness.

What makes you think that everyone else needs their awareness raised? This is probably your fundamental issue and why you might cause so much conflict with folks. Its wonderful that you have had personal experiences but they are your personal experiences. Just like my personal experiences are mine and are just as valid as yours. My awareness is perfectly fine. Keep your aliens on your side of the fence!

Folks, I'm not sure how to respond to this, or even if I should.

I will only say that if this particular poster does not approve of my efforts to raise awareness of alien contact, perhaps he should stop reading my posts.

Now back to the conversation.

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: Scdfa

Yes, because the aliens are not very bright, and would be unable to recognize any technology as highly advanced as a camcorder. Why, they'd probably think it was sorcery, or some form of magic. They might just fall to their alien knees right there and worship that shiny camcorder as a god. Then we got 'em!

So what do the aliens do when they detect a camcorder? Do they avoid it? Do they disable it? Do they make it disappear?
Even if they stop the camcorder from recording, you have something predictable and you have a timestamp of the event. Not too shabby. But my guess is nothing happens and the abduction takes place anyway.

In all fairness to Arbitrageur, this has been attempted.

By whom? What were the results? If I was getting abducted, my house would wired up...it already is so that's why they probably avoid me.

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
So what do the aliens do when they detect a camcorder? Do they avoid it? Do they disable it? Do they make it disappear?

This one seems to be hamming it up a bit for the cam, but since the camera can't harm them I'd expect them to just go on about their abduction business as if the camera wasn't there.



However I'm sure the fertile imagination can dream up many inventive reasons this would never work. But whatever those reasons are, we could also apply them to demons.

originally posted by: Scdfa
(continued...)

There is nothing inherently wrong in any of these projects you tout, and I agree with many of them.

Where the tragedy lies is in the fact that all of you choose to pretend that alien contact is not already taking place, and has been for the better part of a century now.

You seem to take a great deal of pride in having a curious scientific mind, but never once have you asked me for details of the alien beings I have encountered, or even information I could provide on their vehicles. You could then weigh for yourself the worth of what I have to say.

But you simply do not want that information. You prefer to spend enormous amounts of time writing posts that justify ignoring people like me.

Ok, the reason is because in most cases such details are not very useful scientifically.

But I'll bite.

Do any of the details of the "alien beings" you have encountered and information on their vehicles give anything specific which I as an astronomer in training could sink my teeth into?

For instance did your aliens tell you:

What star system they are from?
Which planet in it they are from?
How long a year is on their planet?
Where the nearest planet like Earth is?
How many other civilizations are in the neighborhood and where they reside?
What other planets they visit (if any) in our solar system?
What powers their vehicles?
What they use for communication with their home world?
How old their home world is?
How old their species is?
If they have any facilities either free floating or on the surface of planets or moons in our solar system?
If so, what do such facilities do?

These are the types of questions whose answers would provide information which can eventually be confirmed or refuted.

Unfortunately, most abduction accounts lack any that.

So it's not just that abductees can't seem to grab a piece of trash to take off the alien ship, they can't seem to grab any useful information about the galaxy and universe we and presumably their abductors share which is not already known but can be confirmed.

In short, there's not data in abductions. Only noise.

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: Scdfa
(continued...)

There is nothing inherently wrong in any of these projects you tout, and I agree with many of them.

Where the tragedy lies is in the fact that all of you choose to pretend that alien contact is not already taking place, and has been for the better part of a century now.

You seem to take a great deal of pride in having a curious scientific mind, but never once have you asked me for details of the alien beings I have encountered, or even information I could provide on their vehicles. You could then weigh for yourself the worth of what I have to say.

But you simply do not want that information. You prefer to spend enormous amounts of time writing posts that justify ignoring people like me.

Ok, the reason is because in most cases such details are not very useful scientifically.

But I'll bite.

Do any of the details of the "alien beings" you have encountered and information on their vehicles give anything specific which I as an astronomer in training could sink my teeth into?

For instance did your aliens tell you:

What star system they are from?
Which planet in it they are from?
How long a year is on their planet?
Where the nearest planet like Earth is?
How many other civilizations are in the neighborhood and where they reside?
What other planets they visit (if any) in our solar system?
What powers their vehicles?
What they use for communication with their home world?
How old their home world is?
How old their species is?
If they have any facilities either free floating or on the surface of planets or moons in our solar system?
If so, what do such facilities do?

These are the types of questions whose answers would provide information which can eventually be confirmed or refuted.

Unfortunately, most abduction accounts lack any that.

So it's not just that abductees can't seem to grab a piece of trash to take off the alien ship, they can't seem to grab any useful information about the galaxy and universe we and presumably their abductors share which is not already known but can be confirmed.

In short, there's not data in abductions. Only noise.

There's plenty of data in alien abductions, Jade, for someone bright enough to ask reasonable questions, but the noise is coming not from me, but from you.

I was abducted, Jade, they didn't put me through Alien College.

Do you really understand so little of alien abductions? Do you think the aliens teach week-long seminars? Pass out alien astronomy books? Never mind that your "Santa's wish list" would literally take textbooks to fill.

Let's face it, the only reason you asked me anything at all was that I pointed out to everybody how unscientific it was that you hadn't already done so.

Your reluctance and unwillingness to take me seriously is pretty blatant when your opening line is, "okay, I'll bite...", then you come at me with questions that are unrealistic to the point of absurdity, then your last line declares that "there is no data in abductions, only noise."

I learned a great deal of useful information during those events, but almost entirely by observation. I encountered aliens, but none with the goal of handing out degrees.

But hey, you win, right? Now you can say you were right all along, that the alien abductee couldn't answer your questions, and you can keep using "signal to noise" cliches. But this quote reveals a lot:

These are the types of questions whose answers would provide information which can eventually be confirmed or refuted.

Unfortunately, most abduction accounts lack any that.

There is a reason most abduction accounts lack any of that, Jade. A very good reason, and here it is:

They are telling the truth.

originally posted by: Scdfa
They are telling the truth.

Even with all the efforts of project Blue Book to debunk UFO sightings, they didn't resort to calling many people liars. Hynek's statistics were that about 0.9% of UFO reports were believed to be hoaxes, so that means over 99% of the witnesses weren't presumed to be lying.

I've never seen any good statistics for the percentage of hoaxes in alien abduction cases, but for the sake of argument, let's say the statistics are similar, that only 1% of the reports are deceptive and 99% are telling the truth about what they saw and experienced.

I believe those 99% are telling the truth, as they see it from their perspective, in both the UFO reports and the abduction cases.

Hynek goes on in his UFO report to document how the vast majority of those 10,000 UFO reports from people who were telling the truth were the result of misperceptions. But he came to believe that a small percentage of those UFO sightings that couldn't be explained may have non-earthly origins.

So here we have someone who started out as a UFO skeptic and after investigating many cases turned into a UFO believer, and founded a UFO research organization. Yes his conclusion on UFOs is that the vast majority are people telling the truth, but what they tell us truthfully is a misperception of reality.

By inference if there's that much misperception in cases where there is often evidence, like sometimes photos, videos, or corroboration by other witnesses, why would we infer there's any less misperception in abduction reports when there's usually not corroboration by other witnesses, or photos or videos?

Now could there be a small percentage of both UFO reports and alien abduction reports which are not the result of misperception? I can't rule it out, or as TrueMessiah put it, I can't "dismiss" the possibility. But even if that's true and some UFOs are alien spacecraft and some alien abductions are real abductions, we are still left with the conclusion that the vast majority of both types of reports are truthful accounts of misperceptions, and don't involve any aliens.

originally posted by: Scdfa

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian

originally posted by: Scdfa

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: Scdfa
The real problem would be convincing others, which you are apparently have a problem doing

Don't worry, I understand what you were trying to say here, I think.

Yes, there are many factors that make raising awareness of alien contact difficult. I don't like to use the word "convince". No person can change another's mind, change comes from within. I can only raise awareness.

What makes you think that everyone else needs their awareness raised? This is probably your fundamental issue and why you might cause so much conflict with folks. Its wonderful that you have had personal experiences but they are your personal experiences. Just like my personal experiences are mine and are just as valid as yours. My awareness is perfectly fine. Keep your aliens on your side of the fence!

Folks, I'm not sure how to respond to this, or even if I should.

I will only say that if this particular poster does not approve of my efforts to raise awareness of alien contact, perhaps he should stop reading my posts.

Now back to the conversation.

I think what you are saying is that everyone elses awareness, except yours, needs to be raised because your experiences are somehow truer than everyone elses. I am certain that is what you are saying. Your lack of response is a response especially when you state that you wont respond. my apologies if my examination of your remarks offends. Folks? How large do you imagine our audience is?

originally posted by: Scdfa

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian

originally posted by: Scdfa

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: Scdfa
The real problem would be convincing others, which you are apparently have a problem doing

Don't worry, I understand what you were trying to say here, I think.

Yes, there are many factors that make raising awareness of alien contact difficult. I don't like to use the word "convince". No person can change another's mind, change comes from within. I can only raise awareness.

What makes you think that everyone else needs their awareness raised? This is probably your fundamental issue and why you might cause so much conflict with folks. Its wonderful that you have had personal experiences but they are your personal experiences. Just like my personal experiences are mine and are just as valid as yours. My awareness is perfectly fine. Keep your aliens on your side of the fence!

Folks, I'm not sure how to respond to this, or even if I should.

I will only say that if this particular poster does not approve of my efforts to raise awareness of alien contact, perhaps he should stop reading my posts.

Now back to the conversation.

I wouldn't bother.

About the best you can hope to achieve is to raise awareness of your personal beliefs. I'd say mission accomplished.

Now back to the conversation.

a reply to: draknoir2

Now back to the conversation

But..but, the whole conversation is about raising awareness of ET contact and how everyone else's views are wrong.

originally posted by: Scdfa
a reply to: Arbitrageur

Anyone experiencing multiple abductions from their bedroom for example could and should set up a camcorder to record themselves while they sleep. If they have an abduction experience, review the tape and see if it shows anything. This would be some evidence beyond human perception and would be given more weight than human perception. That's what Tyson is saying in the UFO video that we need some other kind of evidence,

Yes, because the aliens are not very bright, and would be unable to recognize any technology as highly advanced as a camcorder. Why, they'd probably think it was sorcery, or some form of magic. They might just fall to their alien knees right there and worship that shiny camcorder as a god. Then we got 'em!

In all fairness to Arbitrageur, this has been attempted.

When, where...I would like to read the account.

This is something I had thought of, but, the ETs that were involved I wasn't so keen on busting, so I didn't finish the project. Although it did seem simple enough...write a wee script and run it on my laptop (it has built in camera)...

Would be less detectable by ET too since it wouldn't b just "running" like a camcorder would. I'm very sure ET can't predict the paths of running software, so he would have no possible way to know I he was being recorded.

Anyway, IF this has actually been tried, I'd like to read about it.

originally posted by: Arbitrageur

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
So what do the aliens do when they detect a camcorder? Do they avoid it? Do they disable it? Do they make it disappear?

This one seems to be hamming it up a bit for the cam, but since the camera can't harm them I'd expect them to just go on about their abduction business as if the camera wasn't there.

However I'm sure the fertile imagination can dream up many inventive reasons this would never work. But whatever those reasons are, we could also apply them to demons.

Where is this from? Has this been officially authenticated?

originally posted by: tanka418

originally posted by: Scdfa
a reply to: Arbitrageur

Anyone experiencing multiple abductions from their bedroom for example could and should set up a camcorder to record themselves while they sleep. If they have an abduction experience, review the tape and see if it shows anything. This would be some evidence beyond human perception and would be given more weight than human perception. That's what Tyson is saying in the UFO video that we need some other kind of evidence,

Yes, because the aliens are not very bright, and would be unable to recognize any technology as highly advanced as a camcorder. Why, they'd probably think it was sorcery, or some form of magic. They might just fall to their alien knees right there and worship that shiny camcorder as a god. Then we got 'em!

In all fairness to Arbitrageur, this has been attempted.

When, where...I would like to read the account.

This is something I had thought of, but, the ETs that were involved I wasn't so keen on busting, so I didn't finish the project. Although it did seem simple enough...write a wee script and run it on my laptop (it has built in camera)...

Would be less detectable by ET too since it wouldn't b just "running" like a camcorder would. I'm very sure ET can't predict the paths of running software, so he would have no possible way to know I he was being recorded.

Anyway, IF this has actually been tried, I'd like to read about it.

Hi tanka! Well, I can't attest to this as I was not there, but the way I heard it discussed is this;

The video comes on, showing a view of the bed, then we see the young man come out from behind the camera after he turned it on, and he gets in bed and goes to sleep. He sleeps for a few hours. Then suddenly, he sits straight up, bolt upright, but not fully awake, and in what looks like a sleepwalking state, we see him get out of bed, shuffle over to the camera, and the camera goes off. It seems to indicate he turned the camera off himself. Was he in an alien trace, or did he do it deliberately? Who knows. He says he doesn't remember doing it,if he did it.

Certainly not compelling evidence by any measure. But then there's this. When the camera turns back on, the young man is already back in his bed sound asleep. So some people wonder, if he is back in bed asleep, then who turned the camera back on?

That's all I know about that particular example. I have read of this experiment being tried on at least two other occasions. In both cases, right before they claim to have been abducted, the video screen distorts, and shuts off. Then it turns on later with the person back in bed,or still in bed, perhaps.

originally posted by: Scdfa

There is nothing inherently wrong in any of these projects you tout, and I agree with many of them.

Where the tragedy lies is in the fact that all of you choose to pretend that alien contact is not already taking place, and has been for the better part of a century now.

No. Where the real tragedy lies is that you carry on with your narrative about me ignoring abduction accounts which is ridiculously untrue (see below). In addition, you have been ignoring the plethora of scientists who HAVE looked at the UFO and abduction phenomena for the better part of a century and have not found it supportive of your BELIEF that it represents "alien visitation".

What about that? Either you value science or you don't but you can't have it both ways where you only value it when it gives you the answer which supports your belief.

It is ironic you characterize me as someone who is not aware of the abduction material and shows just how little you know about me know considering all the work I put into this ATS thread: The Hill Star Map and Exoplanets

And this ATS thread: The Hill Star Map and Exoplanets - Part 2: Analysis and NASA's Exo-S Mission (VIDEO)

NOW who is misinformed or didn't do their homework? Feeling silly yet?

And THIS is the 2nd reason why many scientists are reluctant to look at the abduction thing. Besides lack of testable data in the majority of cases, the act of actually looking at abductions closely (or UFOs in general for that matter) in the few cases where there might be scientifically testable data is mostly ignored by "alien visitation" believers when the scientist's work is inconclusive or refutes their belief.

The whole UFO field has moved backwards to be honest. In the 1970s Dr. Carl Sagan and Terence Dickinson analyzed and debated a star map which was associated with the Barney and Betty Hill abduction case.

Soil was collected by Dr. J Allen Hynek and sent to analysis in supposed landing cases.

What came of all that? It was replaced by people like you who supposedly "do not need science to validate their claims" but who routinely attack science for not trying to validate your story, thus driving off most serious scientists from the field and leaving a nice void for the New Age crystal hawkers, chakra readers, aura seers, trance channellers and the like to fill.

Either you want us or you don't, make up your mind.

So now if a scientist DOES take an interest in the field, not only do they risk their reputations sticking their neck out to look at something most logical, rational people have dismissed years ago (due to the charlatans and anti-intellectuals who have attached themselves to it) but there is no value derived from the UFOs as Aliens community which has asked them to do so because they do not value the scientific method!

For these people (and Scdfa is a prime example), the scientists are only valuable if their work confirms their belief system, but science doesn't work that way. If it did then there would be research grants for chasing ghosts and looking for scientific proof of God.

A question can only be approached scientifically if it is based on something falsifiable. The extraterrestrial hypothesis with regards to UFOs is a falsifiable hypothesis and for many it already has been falsified to their satisfaction based on OBSERVATIONS and DATA.

But you have already decided you do not need data and that your mind is made up because you BELIEVE the aliens are here abducting people.

A null result in science is just as valuable as proof of something suspected or predicted.

Scdfa keeps saying that scientists refuse to look at these cases but in reality he is really saying, science refuses to accept someone telling a story with nothing to back it up as proof of "alien visitation".

When science has looked at such cases there hasn't been anything of value (other than perhaps in the psychological field) gained.

I don't know what happened to you Scdfa, and given what you've said so far, no one who listens to your story ever could conclusively tell you anything that would convince you that you weren't visited by aliens. I understand you are looking for answers but I feel you should look for answers a lot closer to home.

ET may be out there, but your story isn't going to amount to any sort of proof of it.

Anyone can tell a story. The more outrageous the story, the higher the standard of evidence that it took place. You can argue against this all you want but it's a fact of life.

originally posted by: TrueMessiah

originally posted by: Arbitrageur

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
So what do the aliens do when they detect a camcorder? Do they avoid it? Do they disable it? Do they make it disappear?

This one seems to be hamming it up a bit for the cam, but since the camera can't harm them I'd expect them to just go on about their abduction business as if the camera wasn't there.

However I'm sure the fertile imagination can dream up many inventive reasons this would never work. But whatever those reasons are, we could also apply them to demons.

Where is this from? Has this been officially authenticated?

This is not genuine, don't get excited. That is not a still from a video of an actual alien abduction, not even close.

It's a guy in a costume, probably from a low-budget cable channel re-enactment, or an outright hoax, or who knows, maybe a slumber party at Michael Jackson's house. But it is not an alien.

There are a dozen reasons it isn't genuine.

a reply to: JadeStar

Scdfa keeps saying that scientists refuse to look at these cases but in reality he is really saying, science refuses to except someone telling a story with nothing to back it up as proof of "alien visitation".

It's actually "accept", Jade, not "except".

NOW who is misinformed or didn't do their homework? Feeling silly yet?

A little, yes.

a reply to: Scdfa

It's actually "accept", Jade, not "except".

Its actually obnoxious when you do that and particularly when you struggle with enough on your own. Like not quite getting the quote function.

originally posted by: Scdfa

originally posted by: TrueMessiah

originally posted by: Arbitrageur

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
So what do the aliens do when they detect a camcorder? Do they avoid it? Do they disable it? Do they make it disappear?

This one seems to be hamming it up a bit for the cam, but since the camera can't harm them I'd expect them to just go on about their abduction business as if the camera wasn't there.

However I'm sure the fertile imagination can dream up many inventive reasons this would never work. But whatever those reasons are, we could also apply them to demons.

Where is this from? Has this been officially authenticated?

This is not genuine, don't get excited. That is not a still from a video of an actual alien abduction, not even close.

It's a guy in a costume, probably from a low-budget cable channel re-enactment, or an outright hoax, or who knows, maybe a slumber party at Michael Jackson's house. But it is not an alien.

There are a dozen reasons it isn't genuine.

Now I'm wondering why it was even posted?
Arbitrageur, how can you go from giving us ideas on how to capture evidence through the use of a camera, but when Scdfa and I go through explaining how that would be highly inprobable, you turn around and post a hoax photo as if it supports your stance?

a reply to: Scdfa

Not very convoluted is it

Sounds like an easy way to create a hoax, and get a little attention...

Probability would suggest that the person very deliberately turned the camera off, as opposed to being in an "alien trance". And, probability is going to demand that a "finger" belonging to something physical turned the camera back on.

Logically, this is a rather untenable set of micro-events; in that each of the constituent events seem to be somewhat contrived.

What method did ET use to put victim into "trance"? In the ore mundane world there are chemical substances, that can be put into an aerosol and "sprayed" into a room to keep "victim" from causing trouble. These don't, however, cause the victim to enter a state where they can be controlled in that manner...I've experienced these chemicals courtesy the U.S.A.F.

a reply to: TrueMessiah

originally posted by: TrueMessiah
Where is this from? Has this been officially authenticated?

When I search "alien abduction" on youtube, it's on the list of results that comes up. It's a documentary, presumably a re-enactment. Here's the full screencap showing the documentary name:


I never claimed it was genuine, I merely posted it to answer the question about what the camera might capture if an abduction did take place.

If someone did have genuine video like this, it would certainly address the concerns of many skeptics about these abduction reports, but I've never seen a genuine video so that's why I suggested people being abducted more than once should set up cameras. Or if someone is worried about an abduction they could set one up in anticipation.

By the way if you can hide cameras in various objects as we do with nanny cams, you could do the same thing with the cam recording your abduction experience. The alien might be less likely to see the camera that way, if you're worried about the alien not liking the camera. Well it works for nanny cams. Aliens may be way smarter than nannies, but they still might not have X-ray vision and might not be able to tell you've got a hidden camera.

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: Scdfa

It's actually "accept", Jade, not "except".

Its actually obnoxious when you do that and particularly when you struggle with enough on your own. Like not quite getting the quote function.

Everybody makes mistakes. But my inability to use the quote function may be the result of "fowl play".