NLBS #39: The Dinosaur Hoax And Christians Against Dinosaurs

a reply to: WilsonWilson

Why can't you watch it? I worked tech support for years. If you have issues you need help with then U2U me.

a reply to: Lucid Lunacy

No issues, the sound is just disabled on this computer.
And to be honest if its a mocumentary i'm not that bothered in watching it.
Is the website featured a real website or a fake one? Is the video a mockumentary, is it discussing a webiste set up to take the piss out of Christians, or is it discussing a real website set up by Christians?

a reply to: theNLBS

As an atheist I find this video pretty insulting to the rest of the religions around the world. They all have the same general archaic beliefs, why focus solely on Christians?

Also, next time...you might want to do some research before making a video. Or were you guys spending too much time on the business side of your "turd exposing" with the NLBS t-shirts and swag?!?

a reply to: WilsonWilson

It's a Christian claiming dinosaurs never existed. I don't know what else to tell you. That's what it is.

a reply to: Lucid Lunacy

But people have said that this is a fake, and that the website featured is not real, is the woman interviewed real or is she an actress, ike on the mermaid show?

a reply to: Lucid Lunacy

No... What I am saying is that it is necessary to have the ability to believe that dinosaurs exist, and have that not be a problem for ones faith.

Look, it's actually very easy, assuming a certain amount of practice. I believe in God, but dinosaurs existed, the earth is four point five four billion years old, also there may be planets in our universe which contain life, other than here on Earth, and for all we know some of it might have attained intelligence and technological parity with us, or even advanced beyond our current level of scientific understanding.

None of which prevents me from believing in God. If others are having a problem with their faith, then it is a problem with their ability to have faith, and not a problem with the scientific data which causes their crisis, which needs addressing.

a reply to: TrueBrit

No... What I am saying is that it is necessary to have the ability to believe that dinosaurs exist, and have that not be a problem for ones faith.

Yet they are not compatible.

Necessarily.

And no it's not that easy.

Genesis is completely contrary to our scientific findings. To argue otherwise is from a position of ignorance.

Stop talking about god as if what you're saying incapsulates all religions and all gods. You're defending one god and one religion.

a reply to: Lucid Lunacy

Yet they are not compatible.

How so?

Genesis is completely contrary to our scientific findings. To argue otherwise is from a position of ignorance.

That depends on how you interpret the creation account in Genesis.

I've never heard of Christians against Dinosaurs before.
My dad is a creatiinist but he believes dinosaurs existed, just not the timescales given for them.
I've also heard them explained by them being the first attempt at earth that went all wrong and was wiped out that is mentioned in the bible.

originally posted by: WilsonWilson
I've never heard of Christians against Dinosaurs before.
My dad is a creatiinist but he believes dinosaurs existed, just not the timescales given for them.
I've also heard them explained by them being the first attempt at earth that went all wrong and was wiped out that is mentioned in the bible.

There are Christians who also believe in the big bang, cosmological evolution, dinosaurs, a 4 billion year old earth and 14-15 billion year old universe, that God "guided" the evolutionary process or that it was encoded within the big bang at the moment of creation, etc etc.

Granted, there are also people like those mentioned in the OP who don't even believe dinosaurs existed, or other nutjobs that think Satan planted dinosaur bones to "trick" humanity. I guess what I'm getting at here, is that you can't paint all Christians as supportive of young earth creationism. There are a wide variety of views.

a reply to: DeadSeraph

You mean other than what I have already addressed about Noah's Ark?

Okay.

Jonah living in a whale for 3 days. [not allegorical since Jesus himself referenced it as literal]

Early man having a lifespan of nearly 1000 years. [good luck showing the science there]

God of course not being proven these things are suspect:

Jesus walking on water
Jesus resurrecting the dead
Jesus turning water to wine
Jesus resurrecting from the dead himself

Genesis:

Earth is formed prior to all stars.
All stars and the Sun is made on Day 4.
Plant life is thriving, fruit-bearing trees, on Day 3 without a Sun, on a frozen planet.
Birds flying above the oceans before all land-based animals.

Need I go on?? These things are not compatible with our scientific findings.

a reply to: Lucid Lunacy

Again, this is entirely dependent on how you view Genesis. However, if one is a Christian, by definition one must believe in divine miracles, since believing in the resurrection is a prerequisite for said belief. This might seem like special pleading, but it's the truth. There is no reason why a person cannot be a Christian and also hold a belief in science. You can take that up with the vatican as well.

Jonah living in a whale for 3 days. [not allegorical since Jesus himself referenced it as literal]

I honestly don't see why this couldn't be possible for 2 reasons:

1) 3 days and 3 nights according to Jewish terms, could be a time period as short as 38 hours. While unlikely, it's possible someone could survive this.

2) By definition a Christian must believe in miracles. This certainly wouldn't be the only miracle recorded in the bible

Early man having a lifespan of nearly 1000 years. [good luck showing the science there]

Some Christians believe that Genesis is almost completely allegorical, and stems mostly from Abraham and earlier religious and spiritual traditions that he took with him from Mesopotamia. This is actually supported by ancient history and archaeology, as we find the flood tradition in far earlier writings from the very culture the bible states Abraham was from (Mesopotamia). You will find similar ages being attributed to people in the Sumerian King List, as well as in other traditions from that region/time. It stands to reason that Abraham would have carried these traditions with him, when he left Mesopotamia for Canaan.

Of course, some view these things literally, and others view them allegorically. Many scholars are of the opinion that Gematria played heavily into the scriptures, and that rather than actual years lived, there are meanings embedded in the numbers given for each of these antediluvian patriarchs. It really does depend on how you interpret it, and there are various interpretations.

God of course not being proven these things are suspect:

Jesus walking on water
Jesus resurrecting the dead
Jesus turning water to wine
Jesus resurrecting from the dead himself

According to Christians, Jesus is the living Son of God. None of these things would be outside of his abilities.

Earth is formed prior to all stars.
All stars and the Sun is made on Day 4.
Plant life is thriving, fruit-bearing trees, on Day 3 without a Sun, on a frozen planet.
Birds flying above the oceans before all land-based animals.

Refer to my point about Genesis above. Additionally, I've seen other interpretations of Genesis to explain these apparent inconsistencies such as time dilation, misinterpretation or mistranslations of the texts, etc. Curiously, the Quran also claims a 6 day creation, yet does so from the point of view of God's Throne. In this sense, many muslim scholars see no problem with the age of the universe being 14 billion + years old, yet nobody seems to ever bring that up. For some reason it's only Christians that are seemingly incapable of reconciling this tradition with science (at least from the atheists point of view).

But again, there are many ways to look at it.

Need I go on?? These things are not compatible with our scientific findings

Not in the way you view them, no. Admittedly, they are not compatible with our scientific findings in the way some Christians view them, either.

a reply to: DeadSeraph

Again, this is entirely dependent on how you view Genesis.

This is entirely dependent on being someone that is willing to be objective and interpret what Genesis actually says without adding non-scriprtual arguments like Moses saw blah blah. Not pointing at you, it's just a familiar thing.

This might seem like special pleading, but it's the truth.

Look I am okay with that. I am just saying we should be honest about what is actually compatible with our empirical evidence and what is not. I won't argue any metaphysical possibility. They are possible.

There is no reason why a person cannot be a Christian and also hold a belief in science.

Absolutely agree. Yet doing so does not make the two absolutely agreeable.

While unlikely, it's possible someone could survive this.

Unlikely is an understatement. How much improbability do you need for disbelief, man? Jonah was a dead fish. Excuse the pun.

According to Christians, Jesus is the living Son of God. None of these things would be outside of his abilities.

Agreed. Yet this is in context to a discussion of scientific compatibility, yes? That is what you specifically called me out on.

Forgive my anti-theistic predisposition here. I actually quite enjoyed your post

originally posted by: Lucid Lunacy
a reply to: TrueBrit

No... What I am saying is that it is necessary to have the ability to believe that dinosaurs exist, and have that not be a problem for ones faith.

Yet they are not compatible.

Well, I think we will have to beg to differ on that one. I certainly have no trouble with that sort of thinking on this issue.

Necessarily.

And no it's not that easy.

Genesis is completely contrary to our scientific findings. To argue otherwise is from a position of ignorance.

Yes, literally translated, it certainly does sit contrary to the science available on the topic of the early days of the Earth, let alone the entire universe. However, not only has the Bible been translated from translations over generations, fiddled with by nefarious powermongers, and God knows what else over the years, but you have to factor in the comprehension level of the people who were first tasked with recounting and then, later, scribing these stories from the oldest of times.

Stop talking about god as if what you're saying incapsulates all religions and all gods. You're defending one god and one religion.

Given that the topic being ruminated upon here revolves around an allegedly Christian woman, bashing on about her disbelief in Dinosaurs based on her religious convictions, I did not think it necessary to clarify that point.

a reply to: theNLBS

Of course they existed; and their reptilian relatives are the Monarch Of England the head of the Church of England (Christian Reptiles)

she's obviously a shill... need more character back ground.

a reply to: Lucid Lunacy

Forgive my anti-theistic predisposition here. I actually quite enjoyed your post

No worries. I always enjoy discussing these issues with you. You aren't a dick about it

But to clarify, I don't feel like I called you out. I was asking for clarification. But you actually helped me understand your own position in the process. I guess, in a very fundamental sense, the two opinions (atheism and thus materialism, and Christianity) are completely incompatible. But that isn't what I was arguing.

It's sort of ridiculous, because we are approaching it from completely incompatible positions. What I was trying to say, was that the belief in science, and the belief in Christianity, is not incompatible. There have been many eminent scientists in the past with Christian beliefs just as I'm sure there will be in the future. This is especially so in relation to the belief in dinosaurs (which I feel this particular episode of "NLBS" misrepresented).

Yes, the resurrection of the dead is impossible within our current framework of scientific understanding. Yes, that is incompatible with Christianity, if you base the entire universe on a PURELY MATERIALIST view. How do I put this without sounding like a jackass?

If we postulate that the universe is actually a multiverse, how can we ever scientifically prove that? We can't. Hypothetically, we could evolve for another 5 million years and never be able to test that theory. The same goes for "God" or a belief in the divine. Philosophically speaking, a Christian assumes a created universe, created by a supreme being. In that sense, nothing is outside of the realm of possibility for that being. Even a literal 6 day creation.

I have my own myriad of reasons for holding the faith that I do (none of which I intend to get into here), but that doesn't mean I don't see the value in science, or the need for people to adapt their paradigms according to scientific advances. Where would we be if we still thought it was necessary to pray away every illness, and didn't understand the nature of bacterial or viral infections?

That being said, I've personally witnessed things which scientists claim are "impossible". So I can only do what for me makes sense, and that is to attempt to reconcile my spiritual beliefs with my rational sensibilities. That includes a belief in dinosaurs

a reply to: TrueBrit

Okay. Agree to disagree then? Not sure how else to respond.

I was just addressing some of those incompatibilities a post up. Noah's Ark I did earlier. If you disagree that is your prerogative.

Also the incompatibilities I speak of can be found in the Latin Vulgate as well. A translation close to source. No need to reference all those mistranslations you speak of to demonstrate them. We can even go closer to the source than the Latin Vulgate. My arguments will be corroborated regardless. By that I mean scripturally.

a reply to: theNLBS

The sad thing about all this is that is people that truly believe this stories, the stupefaction of America is in full gear, this no only help religion keep their minions but also help the government when using propaganda to push agendas.

a reply to: Lucid Lunacy

But that would still fail to address the basic comprehension level of the people who scribed the words the first time. The peoples who scribed the first documents pertaining to the Judeo-Christian traditions, were not people who understood concepts like space and time, quantum mechanics, particle physics, geophysics, or any of the other scientific paradigms that we have at our disposal today.

Therefore, in order for them to be able to scribe the passages of the Old Testament, God would not have been able to reference these things, and would have been forced by the nature of the persons to whom he dictated the events in Genesis, to use analogues and allegory for concepts that you and I would find commonplace. These include things like, the passage of time, the existence of dinosaurs which were larger in mass than any human construction in existence at the time, the manner in which the universe came to be, the mechanism by which the planet came together from the dust left over after the birth of the star at the centre of the solar system....

And so on.

I have, again, no issue with this being the case, since it is self evident when one applies the barest logic to it, from the position of faith. Faith of course, assumes that ones belief system is at least true in some basic principle. Therefore, application of some logic to the situation allows one to tesalate ones concept of the universe and known values associated therewith, with certain key principles of ones belief system, without compromising the better elements of either ones reason and logic, and knowledge, or indeed ones faith at its core.