The Best of the Best....Air superiority Fighters

My four.

RSAF F-16D Block 52+ with Israeli EW mods
Typhoon F2
SU-35
F-22
Rafale

Are these F-16s the very same ones which took part in that recent air exercise with the Indian AF at 'tac-de' Gwalior??
Infact the results of that exercise still have not been released!!

[edit on 2-1-2005 by Daedalus3]

Originally posted by waynos
Ooh stealth spy, where to begin?

I know;

The sukhoi with a stable airframe is anyday more agile than any delta winged unstable airframe

The Sukhoi Su-30, I presume you mean, is more manouverable, the video posted here the other day showed that. The point I was making was about agility by purely aerodynamic means rather than TVC, which is what gives the Sukhoi its advantage.

Understand one thing, a naturally stable airframe cannot be more agile than an unstable one unless it has TVC, thats the point of making it unstable. A stable airframe wants to fly in a straight line, thus making rapid manouvres is something it has to be made to do. An unstable airframe however wants to be flinging itself all over the place so a rapid manouvre is acheived that bit more quickly. That may be over simplified but its basically how it works. without TVC the Sukhoi would be easy meat for the Typhoon, however it has TVC so it isn't. That was sort of the point I was making.

sorry i found out that some info i had previously posted was incorrect .

Here is the correct info : source : vayu-sena.tripod.com...

Airframe and Aerodynamics
The Su-30MKI is a highly integrated twin-finned aircraft. The airframe is constructed of titanium and high-strength aluminium alloys. The engine nacelles are fitted with trouser fairings to provide a continuous streamlined profile between the nacelles and the tail beams. The fins and horizontal tail consoles are attached to tail beams. The central beam section between the engine nacelles consists of the equipment compartment, fuel tank and the brake parachute container. The fuselage head is of semi-monocoque construction and includes the cockpit, radar compartments and the avionics bay. Su-30MKIs also have a high percentage of composites used in the air-frame.

The Su-30MKI aerodynamic configuration is an unstable longitudinal triplane. The canard increases the aircraft lifting effectiveness. It deflects automatically and allows high angle-of- attack flights. The integral aerodynamic configuration combined with thrust vectoring results in practically unlimited manoeuvrability and unique taking off and landing characteristics.

Stability and control are assured by a digital FBW. The canard notably assists in controlling the aircraft at large angles of attack (AoA) and bringing it to a level flight condition. The aircraft has a newly developed wing with increased relative thickness, accommodating a larger amount of fuel. The wing will have high-lift devices featured as deflecting leading edges and flaperons acting the flaps and ailerons. At subsonic flights, the wing profile curvature is changed by a remote control system which deflects the leading edges and flaperons versus the AoA (Angles of Attack).

The Su-30MKI will have a reinforced airframe in order to accommodate a weapons load of 17,650 lb (8,000 kg) compared with half that for the Su-30K, and the maximum takeoff weight is projected at 83,770 lb (38,000 kg) versus 73,850 lb (33,500 kg).

The Su-30MKI has no AoA limitations: it can fly at even 180 degree AoA and still recover. This high super-agility allows rapid deployment of weapons in any direction as desired by the crew. The addition of another seat means that the pilot is free to concentrate on flying the aircraft while the second pilot can engage targets.

Mikhail Simonov was stung by press criticism that this machine was appearing at airshows doing tailslides and Cobras without any underwing stores. So it was promptly fitted with a representative warload consisting of (from port wingtip) - AA-11, AA-11, AA-10, Kh-31P, 6 x OFAB-100-120 bombs on a MER fitted to the port lower intake, KAB-500KR on centreline pylon, Kh-29T on lower Stbd intake, Kh-59M, RVV-AE, AA-11, AA-11 and still did its full show routine! A similar performance was witnessed at an airshow where the Landing Gear could not retracted in a Su-37, but Yevgeny Frolov still went on do perform the show routine without any changes!



RADAR :
The forward facing Phazotron NO11M Bars is a powerful integrated radar sighting system. The N011M is a digital multi-mode dual frequency band radar (X and L Band, NATO D and I). Antenna diameter is 1m, antenna gain 36dB, the main sidelobe level is -25dB, average sideobe level is -48dB, beamwidth is 2.4 deg with 12 distinct beam shapes. The antenna weighs 100kg.

The N011M radar has been under flight testing since 1993, fitted to Su-27M (Su-35) prototype '712'. It employs the same level of technology as the now abandoned N014 radar which was to have equipped Mikoyan's MFI "fifth-generation" fighter and was initiated by Tamerlan Bekirbayev. The nose of the Su-30MKI was modified (compared the Su-27) to accommodate the fixed antenna array and more avionics boxes.

Note that the N011M is different from the N011: the N011 is mechanical scanning while the former is features a phased array antenna and is much more capable. The mechanical scan version equips the No 24 Sqn aircraft. "We can count the number of blades in the engine of the aircraft in sight (by the NO11M) and by that determine its type," NIIP claims.

The N011M can function both in air-to-air and air-to-land/sea mode simultaneusly while being tied into a high-precision laser-inertial / GPS navigation system. It is equipped with a modern digital weapons control system as well as anti-jamming features. The aircraft has an opto-electronic surveillance and targeting system which consists of a IR direction finder, laser rangefinder and helmet mounted sight system. The HMS allows the pilot to turn his head in a 90� field of view, lock on to a target and launch the much-feared R-73RDM2 missile.


In preliminary long range aiming, the targets (co-ordinates of which enter the navigation system) are locked on automatically, and the onboard locator is disengaged. The aircraft flies radio silent to the targets, and at a range close to the maximum one required for launching the weapons, the threat updating aids are engaged and the weapon is fired. In doing so, the attack time is minimal and the low-observable target approach increases the success of a mission greatly. The Su-30MKI can be fitted with an imaging IR navigation and attack equipment pod to provide night attacks against small-size ground targets.

For aircraft N011M has a 350 km search range and a 200 km tracking range. The radar can track and engage 20 air targets and engage the 8 most threatening targets simultaneously. The forward hemisphere is �90� in azimuth and �55� in elevation. These targets can include cruise/ballistic missiles and even motionless helicopters. A MiG-21 for instance can be detected at a distance of up to 135 km. Design maximum search range for an F-16 target was 140-160km. A Bars' earlier variant, fitted with a five-kilowatt transmitter, proved to be capable of acquiring Su-27 fighters at a range of over 330 km. In comparison, the advanced Kopyo radar found in the latest MiG-21UPG can detect small drone targets at a range of 50 km. Another radar meant for the Flanker family, Phazotron-NIIR�s Zhuk-MS radar has a range of 150-180km against a fighter and over 300km against a warship. N011M can withstand up to 5 percent transceiver loss without significant degredation in performance. Additionally the Su-30MKI can function as a 'mimi-AWACS' and can act as a director or command post for other aircraft. The target co-ordinates can be transferred automatically to atleast 4 other aircraft. This feature was first seen in the MiG-31 Foxhound, which is equipped with a Zaslon radar.

Russian designers have stated that they believe that the key to dogfight supremacy rests in the pilot's ability to engage the enemy in any position relative to their own aircraft. While TVC permits post-stall maneuvering and pointing which are impossible in conventional aircraft, they are convinced that a rearward facing radar and missiles that can be fired in the aft-quadrant all join to make an unbeatable integrated weapons system.

Ground surveillance modes include mapping (with Doppler beam sharpening), search & track of moving targets, synthetic aperture radar and terrain avoidance. To penetrate enemy defenses, the aircraft can fly at low altitudes using the terrain following and obstacle avoidance feature. It enables the pilot to independently find his position without help from external sources (satellite navigation, etc.); detect ground targets and their AD systems; choose the best approach route to a target with continuous updates fed to the aircraft navigation systems; and provide onboard systems and armament with targeting data.

According to Sukhoi EDB the Su-30MKI is capable of performing all tactical tasks of the Su-24 Fencer deep interdiction tactical bomber and the Su-27 Flanker A/B/C air superiority fighter while having around twice the combat range and atleast 2.5 times the combat effectiveness.

The N011M offers a quantum leap in technology over the earlier Russian radars. Small ground targets, like tanks, can be detected out to 40-50 km. The MiG-29, Su-27 and other fighters can be provided with a ground strike capability only if their radars can operate in the down-looking mode which generates a map of ground surface on a cockpit display (this mode is called the Mapping Mode).

N011M ensures a 20 m resolution detection of large sea targets at a distance up to 400 km, and of small size ones - at a distance of 120 km. Coupled with the air-launched Brahmos-A AShM, the Su-30MKI will become an unchallanged platform for Anti-Ship duties. The Brahmos is a result of a joint collaboration between India and Russia and is a variant of the Yakhont AShM (which has not entered service).

The Su-30MKI also has a NO12 rearward facing radar which is housed at the end of the center section spine or sting and alerts a pilot to the approach of an enemy aircraft on his tail. This radar has a range of 50km for a 3 sqm RCS target and 100 km for large ones. It features a surveillance area of �60� in azimuth and elevation. It enables the pilot to fire the R-73RDM2 missile without turning to get a positive lock on the enemy aircraft. The missile will be launched as usual and will then flip 180� to intercept the aircraft.


The rear-firing capability of the Vympel R-73RDM2 in itself a viable defense system. Approach-warning, acquisition and queuing of targets for these rear-firing missiles would be the function of the rear-mounted radar. The R-73 missile will lock-on to its target before launch and will maintain its lock-on throughout its launch and flight sequence. The radar can also provide steering commands to a RVV-AE (R-77) before launch or to RVV-AE variants that have high-angle-off seeker heads (beyond �160�) locked-on before launch.

TVC nozzles and engines of the Su-30 MKI

The Su-30MKI is powered by the Al-31FP (P for povorotnoye meaning "movable"), which is a development of the Al-37FU (seen in the Su-37 Terminator).

AL-31FP which is designed by the Lyulka Engine Design Bureau (NPO Saturn) is also different from Al-31F (by the same company). The Al-31F is the 'baseline' powerplant found in most Su-27 and its variants, and perhaps in the China's J-10 in the future and lacks TVC. The AL-31FP was only 110Kg heavier and 0.4 m longer than the AL-31F, while the thrust remains the same. Planes equipped with AL-31F can be upgraded to AL-31FP later on without any changes in the airframe. It is being produced now at the Saturn manufacturing facility at Ufa, Russia.

The Al-37FU (FU stands for forsazh-upravlaemoye-sopo or "afterburning-articulating/steerable-nozzle") basically added 2D Thrust Vectoring Control (TVC) Nozzles to the Al-31F. 2D TVC means that the Nozzles can be directed/pointed in 2 axis or directions - up or down. TVC obviuosly makes an aircraft much more maneuverable. Al-31FP builds on the Al-37FU with the capability to vector in 2 planes i.e. thrust can be directed side-ways also. The nozzles of the MKI are capable of deflecting 32 degrees in the horizontal plane and 15 degrees in the vertical plane. This is done by angling them inwards by 15 degrees inwards, which produces a cork-screw effect and thus enhancing the turning capability of the aircraft.

The TVC nozzles will be made of titanium to reduce the nozzle's weight and can deflect together or differentially to achieve the desired thrust vector for a particular maneuver. The engine designers are also working to reduce the infrared signature for thrust settings below afterburner.

Also, the 2-nozzles can be vectored un-symmetrically, i.e. each nozzle can point at different directions independent from the other nozzle and thus multiplying the effect.The aircraft is capable of near-zero speed airspeed at high angles of attack and super dynamic aerobatics in negative speeds up to 200 km/h.

TVC allows the MKI for example, to rapidly loose speed and turn in any direction and fire its weapons. The complete range of maneuveres possible in the MKI are impossible on any other combat fighter in production. "We even made a corkscrew spin a controllable manoeuvre - the pilot can leave it at any moment by a single motion of the stick that engages thrust-vectoring and aerodynamic surfaces," says Sukhoi's earlier general designer Mikhail Simonov.

Two AL-31FP by-pass thrust-vectoring turbojet reheated engines (25000 kgf full afterburning thrust) ensure a 2M horizontal flight speed (a 1350 km/h ground-level speed) and a rate of climb of 230 m/s. The Mean Time Between Overhaul (MTBO) for the AL-31F is given at 1,000 hours with a full-life span of 3,000 hours. The Al-31FP is expected to better this atleast in some areas.

The Al-31FP improves upon the Al-37FU in two ways:


Firstly, the Al-37FU cannot vector thrust in 2 planes unlike the Al-31FP.

Secondly, the nozzle drive connection is effected now from the aircraft fuel system and not from the aircraft's hydraulic system. The change-over to the fuel system, to control swiveling nozzles, enhances the dependability of the aircraft and its survivability in air combat.


There is no a strain-gauge engine control stick to change the engine thrust in the cockpit, rather just a conventional engine throttle control lever. The pilot controls the aircraft with help of a standard control stick which is positioned between his legs. On the pilot's right there is a switch which is turned on for performing difficult maneuvers. After the switch-over, the on-board computer determines the level of use of aerodynamic surfaces and swiveling nozzles and their required deflection angles.

Saturn/Lyulka General Designer Victor Chepkin confirmed to Piotr Butowski (Jane's) that work on a three-dimensional (axisymmetrical) TVC nozzle was underway but that it was not planned for the Su-37 in the immediate future. Other future engines from Saturn are Al-31FN and Al-41.


MKI's TVC pics
:
pic 1 : The thrust vectoring is clearly visible in these vidcaps of a Su-37

pic 2 : nozzles at rest

pic 3 : nozzle movements

pic 4

Originally posted by rajkhalsa2004
I think the following are accurate.

1. F/A-22 -- $256.8 million
2. Typhoon -- $85 million
3. Su-30MKI -- $34 million
4. Rafale -- $50 million
5. F-15C (AESA equipped) -- $42 million (without AESA)

I'm not sure what the per-unit cost of the AESA upgrade on the F-15C would be.

I think, in terms of bang-for-the-buck, arguably the MKI is the best. This low per-unit cost is due mainly to the labor cost-savings of the Indian industry and other factors, which other nations cannot compete against in monetary effeciancy.

However, any country operating the Raptor, despite high cost, is guaranteed complete air dominance. But while MKI is the most potent for dollar cost, economies of scale come into play for the other aircraft: money isn't always everything...

-Raj

The cost of the MKI you have stated is completely wrong .

Indian-built Su-30s will cost only about $22.5 million a unit against the current import price of about $37.5 million

also, i am biwildered that you are unaware that the indigenously built MKI's have alredy been handed over to the Air force :

First home-built Sukhoi-30 MKI handed over to Air Force

One question to waynos : Can the Eurofighter do a cobra ??


also your earlier post stating :

"The Sukhoi Su-30, I presume you mean, is more manouverable, the video posted here the other day showed that. The point I was making was about agility by purely aerodynamic means rather than TVC, which is what gives the Sukhoi its advantage.

is invalid.

SU-30 MKI's cockpit
The SU-30MKI employs extensive use of French (Sextant Avionique) components in the cockpit. A total of 6 LCDs, 5 MFD 55s and 1 MFD 66 for displaying information and accepting commands are used. The six LCDs have a wide-screen, offer image-superimposing and are shielded to make them readable even in bright sunlight. All the flight information is displayed on these four LCD displays which include one for piloting and navigation, a tactical situation indicator, and two for display systems information including operating modes and overall operation status. A VEH 3000 holographic HUD is standard. The cockpit also retains some traditional dial displays as standys.

The aircraft is fitted with a satellite navigation system (A-737 GPS compatible), which permits it to make flights in all weathers; day and night. The navigation complex comprises an inertial directional system (Totem) and short and long range radio navigation systems. It also has a laser attitude and a heading reference system. An automatic flight control system makes all phases of its flight automatic, including the combat employment of its weapons. Once the automatic flight control system receives information from the navigation system, it solves the route flight tasks - involving a flight over the programmed waypoints, the return to the landing airfield, making a pre-landing maneuver and the approach for landing down to an altitude of 60 meters, as well as uses the data supplied from the weapons control and radio guidance command systems to direct the aircraft to the target and accomplish the attack.


Front (left) and Rear (Right) cockpits

note: Sukhoi brochures intentionally carry horizontally fliped pictures of the cockpits in their public literature like brochures and websites.
The diagram in the middle is the actual layout, and the one of the left has been flipped possibly for secrecy.

The communications equipment comprises secure VHF and HF radio sets, a secured digital telecommunications system, and antenna-feeder assembly. It mounts an automatic noise-proof target data exchange system, which provides for coordination of the actions of several fighter aircraft engaged in a group air combat. The voice radio communication with ground control stations and between aircraft is possible up to a range of 1,500 km in the Su-27SK, and the Su-30MKI should equal it if not better this. The Integrated Information System (IIS) allows the performance of a ground serviceability test of the entire equipment and the location of troubles to an individual plug-in unit. In case of an in-flight failure, the indicator of the integrated information system will provide the pilot with a text message about the failure and recommendations on how to correct it or will dictate further actions. The message is also duplicated by voice.

A two-pilot crew provides higher work efficiency (thanks to distribution of the aircraft handling and armament control functions) as well as the engagement in close and long range combats and the air situation observation. Besides, the same dual control aircraft can be used as a combat and training aircraft. Additionally, the integrated air-borne equipment enables the aircraft to be used as an air command post to control the operation of other aircraft.

In practice, the front seater is the pilot and the back seater is the "Wizzo", the WSO (Weapons Systems Operator). The pilot flies the aircraft and handles air-to-air and some ATG weapons, as well as countermeasures. The WSO takes care of the detailed aspects of navigation, ground radar mapping & target designation, setting up delivery solution for ATG weapons, designating for guided bombs/missiles, ECM, and so on. There are many tasks which overlap; either pilot or WSO can do the job depending on circumstances.

The crew are provided zero-zero KD-36DM ejection seats which have a slightly modified comm/oxygen interface block compared to the Su-27. Rear seat is raised for better visibility. The cockpit will be provided with containers to store food and water reserves, a waste disposal system and increased amounts of oxygen. The KD-36DM ejection seat is inclined at 30�, to help the pilot resist aircraft accelerations in air combat.

pics : front seat
rear seat hi res 157 kb

The most bang for your buck for an air-to-air fighter is the F-15C v(3) AESA, it is superior to the Su-30MKI and has great situational awareness.

And the Su-30MKI, cannot do those super-maneuvers with a half-full tank of gas and when it's fully loaded, it's just not possible.

[edit on 2-1-2005 by Hockeyguy567]

And the Su-30MKI, cannot do those super-maneuvers with a half-full tank of gas and when it's fully loaded, it's just not possible.

I can somewhat agree with this. It has been proven many times that the Flanker of any variant cannot perform drastic maneuvers unless he is ~%40 or less fuel and nary any weapons aboard... He can try to override the computer but risks ripping apart. This however doesn�t matter because who in the world will be fighting WVR as the norm from 2000 on? It's more ECM, radar, and decoys these days...

I agree with the responses pointing out the diminishing importance of manouverability and the increasing and critical abilities of ECM.

An airbone AA missile platform that can network quickly with other air and orbiting assets in order to see-first/shoot-first is a better fighter than one that can perform a cobra at airshows.

A pilot that gets flying time is a better one that isn't trained.

A maintanance program that keeps the aircraft flying is better than one that can't afford the parts or keep the sortie rate high.

That's the USAF air superiority system. And that's not jingoism, it's just the way it is.

That's the USAF air superiority system. And that's not jingoism, it's just the way it is.

One need no further then Nellis AFB.

Originally posted by ChrisRT

That's the USAF air superiority system. And that's not jingoism, it's just the way it is.

One need no further then Nellis AFB.

Ahh..yes,the first base to recieve the -22s!

Mikhail Simonov was stung by press criticism that this machine was appearing at airshows doing tailslides and Cobras without any underwing stores. So it was promptly fitted with a representative warload consisting of (from port wingtip) - AA-11, AA-11, AA-10, Kh-31P, 6 x OFAB-100-120 bombs on a MER fitted to the port lower intake, KAB-500KR on centreline pylon, Kh-29T on lower Stbd intake, Kh-59M, RVV-AE, AA-11, AA-11 and still did its full show routine! A similar performance was witnessed at an airshow where the Landing Gear could not retracted in a Su-37, but Yevgeny Frolov still went on do perform the show routine without any changes!

According to Stealth, they CAN make manauvers with weapons loaded, I don't think it will matter if the aircraft is fully loaded or not...but ofcourse I CAN be wrong...

Originally posted by GrOuNd_ZeRo

Mikhail Simonov was stung by press criticism that this machine was appearing at airshows doing tailslides and Cobras without any underwing stores. So it was promptly fitted with a representative warload consisting of (from port wingtip) - AA-11, AA-11, AA-10, Kh-31P, 6 x OFAB-100-120 bombs on a MER fitted to the port lower intake, KAB-500KR on centreline pylon, Kh-29T on lower Stbd intake, Kh-59M, RVV-AE, AA-11, AA-11 and still did its full show routine! A similar performance was witnessed at an airshow where the Landing Gear could not retracted in a Su-37, but Yevgeny Frolov still went on do perform the show routine without any changes!

According to Stealth, they CAN make manauvers with weapons loaded, I don't think it will matter if the aircraft is fully loaded or not...but ofcourse I CAN be wrong...

No, it's not possible, the Flanker series has very high-wing loading and would cause the wings to rip off if any such of these maneuvers are attempted.

finally, i'm back, put a posting ban on me for some reason lol, anyways, a lot of stuff has been said, and i was away for 2 weeks in Detroit traveled around, and talked to a few guys, yea, long story short, open-minded now

pilots CAN endure over 10 G's, it has been proven, without any equipment, to, it was a live televised event onDiscovery Channel, this man in an old turbo prop plane went 11 G's or 10.7, can't remember, and thats without the equipment, with the equipment, a pilot can easily take on 10G's(personally i went through 7G's, wow that was awesome, couldn't stop drooling lol)

the MiG 1.44 project is no longer just a technology demonstrator, ithe MiG coporation is now restarting the project

and hockey guy, i think that you are being overly biased on the F-15C being the best "bang for the buck"

no way

i have to say that russian aircraft in general, are the best bang for the buck, really, an Su-37 for under $40 million, an aircraft that can far surpass an F-15 in pretty much anything, here's a few things

#, can't find the site now, but it says that an Su-30MKI i believe performed its entire scheduled routine with weapons and 100% of its uel on, have to find that site again

i know that the russian aviation industry(in american eyes) has been very unreliable, but don't make me pull out the 2 B-2A's that were shot down in Yugoslavia, say goodbye to your so called steqlth advantage

oh yea, the engine on the F-22 isn't powerful

the AL-41(which will power ALL future russian aircraft) generates 25,600lbs. of dry thrust and 44,090lbs. of wet thrust
www.aeronautics.ru...
now, compare that to the F-22's engnie which produces 35,000lbs. dry thrust
www.aeronautics.ru...

which is considerably lower than the AL-41, and Warlord, if the F-22 goes above Mach 2.1, the RAM melts off, what, no way?

can you provide some sources

i know that the russian aviation industry(in american eyes) has been very unreliable, but don't make me pull out the 2 B-2A's that were shot down in Yugoslavia, say goodbye to your so called steqlth advantage

So, now it's 2 B-2's shot down, huh? Yet no wreckage was ever displayed like with the F-117.

the AL-41(which will power ALL future russian aircraft) generates 25,600lbs. of dry thrust and 44,090lbs. of wet thrust
www.aeronautics.ru...
now, compare that to the F-22's engnie which produces 35,000lbs. dry thrust
www.aeronautics.ru...

The F-22 can produce 39,000 according to this:

www.military.com...

I love comparisons between Russian tech coming out years after American tech. The Su-27 came out what, a decade after the F-15? It should be able to out perform it, but even that fact is debatable.

I hereby state that I saw a Su-30 MKI do a cobra with a full wep loadout though w/o a fuel pod.I don't know how full the tank was, but my guess was that it woul'de been less than half because it was an airshow and the aircraft were airborne for only 30 mts..

F-15Cs can definetly shoot down a Su-30MKI with BVR,and what?! 2 B-2s shot down over yugoslavia?! I'd love to see the source on that one

Listen use commen scense U.S. lost 37 Aircraft im gulfwar 1, now Yugoslavia's airdefences are much more advanced than Iraq's so if Iraq can cause 37 USAF, USNavy jets to be shot down then Yugoslavia will defenatly do more damage, now so how come NATO only says they lost 3 warplane in the 99 bombing of KOSAVO? Answer= NATO is lying NATO lost way more than that, WHAT proof is there 1. GulfWAR1 37 USAF/NAVY Jets shot down 2. Yugo has more advanced Airdefences, I saw the CNN footage of F-117 shoot down it WAS shot down by a SAM I remember it exploded then spiraled down in a white fire ball as it was falling is when Yugoslav AAA fire also hit it. AND the F-117 was shot down at Night around 5 AM which prooves if SAM shot it down especially when the sky is dark the Yugo has radar to track it and if the have radar to track the 117 then they defenatly can shoot down F-14/15/16/18 heres a link to see it was shot down at night www.aeronautics.ru...

[edit on 4-1-2005 by SiberianTiger]

[edit on 4-1-2005 by SiberianTiger]

I'm not believing that until you give me some credible info...all your posts have been just BS,with no sources stated.

Here read www.aeronautics.ru... heres more www.aeronautics.ru...


[edit on 4-1-2005 by SiberianTiger]

[edit on 4-1-2005 by SiberianTiger]