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Why Does The Concept Of A Creator God Who Knows Us Individually Set You Off?

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posted on Jan, 1 2015 @ 05:01 PM
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a reply to: OpinionatedB

The Free Will Conspiracy of the Bible

I believe that we have Free Will, to an extent. But, I don't believe that it was given to us by the God of the Old Testament. He tries to get us to give up our Free Will at every turn. So does Paul of the New Testament.


"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. .... For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?

Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." -- Romans 9:11-22


Don't even get me started on Romans 13!




posted on Jan, 1 2015 @ 05:10 PM
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"I think not... god being omniscience means our lives are predetermined, and we are all bound to predestination.
So what is the point to give humans free will, if everything they'll do, is already known." Quote Dr1Akula

You just did exactly what I outlined in my post - are you aware of this?...extrapolating a determination outcome based on what you've understood about the word omniscient...

"The existence of free will means that god is not omnipotent or omniscience., because if he was he would have no needs for approval by his creation, and no intentions to test us by giving us free will...." Quote Dr1Akula

It would probably help your POV if you didn't use a flawed rationale (that I'm assuming, isn't yours) to support a resultant circular argument...cos that would be silly...

The words of men (women?) you (or anyone else for that matter) being quoted (you did need to make the decision to look-up, copy, paste these verses) does not alter the question (do robots question?) of the veracity of free will.

The fact that you do not remember being born (or perhaps you do?) brings into question whether you were born at all...but then, none of the documentation relating to this event was recorded by doctors/nurses etc recieving the information through a divine means...

"Isn't our purpose of creation in contrast with free will?" Quote Dr1Akula

NO...except if you want to accept the narrow-cast definitions, i.e. Predestination...

In effect...no free will - ZERO RESPONSIBILITY for actions/thoughts...

Free will - responsibility for all action and thought (regardless of whether you remember the nested decision associated or not)...

Religion really has nothing to do with this discussion, save that, there are logicians (presumably using limited, or free will) to decide on actions or thoughts, the grand majority of which cannot be recalled (including the innocuous decisions) to make conclusions based on missing information...the reason parts of it are made up by all and sundry...

Å99
edit on 1-1-2015 by akushla99 because: Editt



posted on Jan, 1 2015 @ 05:20 PM
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a reply to: windword

free-will as in, the ability to choose however we will is real. However, predestination is a HUGE help, so why not have access to it also?

edit on 1-1-2015 by OpinionatedB because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 1 2015 @ 05:39 PM
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a reply to: woodwardjnr

The massive brain swelling I had in Jan of 2013 was not my choice, but indeed it DID change my emotions, behavior, I would say even my whole life philosophy.

I walk a fine line with the free will subject---I believe we ARE allowed to choose the roads we take. I also believe that God knows everything at all time(s) and knows the choices we will make before we do. Does this mean we lack free will? No. I believe mankind was given the free will to choose to follow fate, God's Plan. I would also like so acknowledge that it's frickin impossible to see the whole plan as it will occur, so a lot of people can't believe there is one.

I almost died and I woke up KNOWING there is a plan. Sucks I'm not big enough to see it, but it's there. Nothing is or can be perfectly random, nothing is or can be purely coincidence. Philosophically, I no longer believe in an "or" option...it's always "and". Maybe we have Free Will AND Fate. I think I've made my peace with the idea that my choices are predestined---it doesn't mean they aren't MY choices.



posted on Jan, 1 2015 @ 05:46 PM
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originally posted by: tothetenthpower

So if we just use simple logic, we can determine the following:

1. God knows everything.
2.God is timeless
3. If #1 and #2 are correct, this means God also knows everything that *will* happen in the future.
4."God's Plan" as an idea would indicate that all 3 of the above are true.

If that is the case, then there is no free will, just the illusion of free will governed by a fear of eternal damnation.

So that's my issue. It insults my intelligence for people to claim the 4 things above are true, yet at the same time try and claim that you have the 'choice' to do as you please.

You do not.

Everything has been set in motion by God and all the events that have transpired and will transpire are the result of his direct intervention, or willful non intervention.

Neither of which include or require free will for his creations.

~Tenth


Your problem here is that you are constraining God to the same temporal conditions we are subject to. There is no "in the future" to God. He sees all happening at once. This does absolutely nothing to take away the fact that we make choices. The argument of the incompatibility of God and free will is a very weak one.



posted on Jan, 1 2015 @ 05:52 PM
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a reply to: paradox

Time is not linear.
edit on 1-1-2015 by OpinionatedB because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 1 2015 @ 05:52 PM
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a reply to: OpinionatedB




See, right this second, all things that have ever happened, are happening right now, in God's perspective of time. Time is not linear.


I agree with this, somewhat.



So, in understanding this, and understanding what is required to be chosen, then the fact you are already either doing it, or have accomplished a thing, in the future is a help to us.


Nah. There's no separation. There are no requirement other to be born, again.



O if only you would actually pay attention to my commandments! Then your peace would become just like a river.”—Isaiah 48:18.


Didn't I mention Niagara Falls in a recent post? It 'aint no trickle of a dried up steam!



posted on Jan, 1 2015 @ 05:55 PM
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Let me ask you this, in the context of an anology.

If I am the 'god' of my body and love and care for all my various and sundry cells, do I let the cancer cell flourish just because 'he' asked for my help? Maybe by his asking, if it were judged sincere by my omniscience, I would heal that one cancer cell but because the other cancer cells did not ask or were not sincere in their prayers... Perhaps, for the good of creation (me in this anology) it would be best to kill of that 'sincere' cell....

If there is a 'creator god' I don't see how he could possibly 'care' about each bit any more then I can care for each discarded cell.....

If you have faith in a creator god, then your god works for you. All well and good - but faith doesn't require a 'creator god'. And 'god' is anything you have faith in.



posted on Jan, 1 2015 @ 05:57 PM
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a reply to: FyreByrd

I agree that the god of men is what they love the most. This is what becomes their own god. Money for some is their god. Others, it is self.

Its just that 1 GOD, has power over all, and the rest.. are weak indeed. I prefer the powerful one.
edit on 1-1-2015 by OpinionatedB because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 1 2015 @ 06:00 PM
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originally posted by: Dr1Akula
a reply to: MissSmartypants

But do we really have free will?
Much of our lives are determined by things over which we have no control - we don't decide whether our parents will copulate,


Some belief systems think that we choose our parents from beyond.... Karma would place us into the situation and with the exact people that we need to grow and pay our debts.....

Free will is how we 'act' or 'react' to karmic causes and conditions and thereby create new causes and conditions for our growth or decline in the future.
edit on 1-1-2015 by FyreByrd because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 1 2015 @ 06:00 PM
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originally posted by: tothetenthpower


Free will isn't actually possible under the 'One True God' concept.

Because, by definition God is:

In monotheism and henotheism, God is conceived as the Supreme Being and principal object of faith.[1] The concept of God as described by theologians commonly includes the attributes of omniscience (infinite knowledge), omnipotence (unlimited power), omnipresence (present everywhere), omnibenevolence (perfect goodness), divine simplicity, and eternal and necessary existence

Bolding mine.

So if we just use simple logic, we can determine the following:

1. God knows everything.
2.God is timeless
3. If #1 and #2 are correct, this means God also knows everything that *will* happen in the future.
4."God's Plan" as an idea would indicate that all 3 of the above are true.



It actively insults my intelligence that I can read your comments (Not just yours many Christian sects as well) and see Jesus Christ who gave up His life on the cross, who was part of the Trinity, Godhead whatever you like, is God manifest on Earth.
A Sovereign God who in His power became unsoverign

Jesus is the true image of God, a representation of God in heaven on earth, do you still see all of what you claim as God in Jesus
Prove God knows everything, I can prove otherwise with scripture
Prove God is timeless, I can prove otherwise with scripture

If I can prove 1 and 2 not correct in the context, then the whole argument based on what you have heard with your ears is false.

Does that mean God is not sovereign who is not timeless, does not know everything.......no

It means actively God can give out of His love His own sovereignty up.

edit on b2015Thu, 01 Jan 2015 18:10:27 -060013120154pm312015-01-01T18:10:27-06:00 by borntowatch because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 1 2015 @ 06:03 PM
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originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: FyreByrd

I agree that the god of men is what they love the most. This is what becomes their own god. Money for some is their god. Others, it is self.

Its just that 1 GOD, has power over all, and the rest.. are weak indeed. I prefer the powerful one.


Just how does this one 'god' above all others come into being? Because a book told you so? Because a person told you so?

We create god(s) not the other way around.



posted on Jan, 1 2015 @ 06:09 PM
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a reply to: FyreByrd

Because HE told me so.

www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Jan, 1 2015 @ 06:09 PM
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originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: FyreByrd

I agree that the god of men is what they love the most. This is what becomes their own god. Money for some is their god. Others, it is self.

Its just that 1 GOD, has power over all, and the rest.. are weak indeed. I prefer the powerful one.


...supposedly, preferably...the one that could have no 'concievable' adversary...that would be limiting Almightiness...

HNY

Å99



posted on Jan, 1 2015 @ 06:19 PM
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originally posted by: FyreByrd


Just how does this one 'god' above all others come into being? Because a book told you so? Because a person told you so?

We create god(s) not the other way around.


How did life evolve, humanity evolve?
Because a book told you so? Because a person told you so? A scientist?

We create more than just gods, we create ourselves as gods



posted on Jan, 1 2015 @ 07:17 PM
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If someone (iow God) knows your decision before it happens, that is not free will. You might think you do but you do not. You might feel you do but you do not.

I think that's the point some are making here.



posted on Jan, 1 2015 @ 07:17 PM
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a reply to: akushla99

HE never said HIS adversary, HE says ours. Might be an important point there to take note of.



posted on Jan, 1 2015 @ 07:20 PM
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originally posted by: igor_ats
If someone (iow God) knows your decision before it happens, that is not free will. You might think you do but you do not. You might feel you do but you do not.

I think that's the point some are making here.


What kind of a God would HE be, if we could take HIM by surprise?

you see such a weak God, the kind of power God has is terrifying. But fear of the Lord, it is written, is the beginning of wisdom.

If you are beginning to fear, then you are also beginning to understand. Don't worry, scared me too until I realized how much HE really does love us, and care for us.


edit on 1-1-2015 by OpinionatedB because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 1 2015 @ 07:27 PM
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a reply to: OpinionatedB




What kind of a God would HE be, if we could take HIM by surprise?


Then how could "He" be delighted?

I believe in a god that exists with us, and experiences all the joys, fears and pains that we do. God experiences creation through us. We are the body, the senses and the conscience of god, as is everything that exists.



posted on Jan, 1 2015 @ 07:33 PM
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a reply to: windword

And there is a difference between us. I see love as the balance. Love delights, not ignorance. I delight in my love of HIM. HE delights in HIS love for us.




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