Why Does The Concept Of A Creator God Who Knows Us Individually Set You Off?

originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: windword

And there is a difference between us. I see love as the balance. Love delights, not ignorance. I delight in my love of HIM. HE delights in HIS love for us.

What's ignorance got to do with anything?

originally posted by: borntowatch

originally posted by: FyreByrd


Just how does this one 'god' above all others come into being? Because a book told you so? Because a person told you so?

We create god(s) not the other way around.

How did life evolve, humanity evolve?
Because a book told you so? Because a person told you so? A scientist?

We create more than just gods, we create ourselves as gods

Well, I certainly can't deny that either.

originally posted by: OpinionatedB
a reply to: akushla99

HE never said HIS adversary, HE says ours. Might be an important point there to take note of.

Then who 'created' it?...to be an adversary of 'us'...if the 'struggle' of life is dependant on this 'created' adversary of 'us'? Boomeranged intent on an irrelevant merry-go-round of un-logic...that scenario is NOT the hallmark of intelligence and benevolence...

'Us' as IT (kingdome of god within) unconditioned, responsible for OUR/ITS own correctional/ damnation issues and subsequent -'timeless' return to itself as originator...everything else is a manmade trapdoor scenario for those that love to be part of the 'In' crowd (obviously not falling into traps created and locatable)...

The nature of fire is contained in a flame from a candle that can light candles the globe over...there is no OTHER type of fire...and all 'created' imbued with the kingdome of god within (need I say it?) will return to that which created it...not, another creation...Getting back to the spirit of the OP - (and the free will red herring really is a no-brainer)...being timeless, all powerful etc. etc. etc. would be a cruel joke to play on your creations, which is why it is bunkum (you don't need athiests to tell you this self-evidence)...we are all special snowflakes with equally inspiring stories - (transformation - who doesn't love the brilliance of a butterfly rising from the carcass of a grub?)...individuation makes it ever more special - on an individual scale...I wonder how droplets of water feel when passing through the cold that turns them into hail...wonder if they see themselves greater than the frozen water they contain...they both came from the cloud...

Å99

a reply to: Klassified

The concept of a "creator(s)" doesn't set me off. The man made concept of deities, the divine, gods, and goddessses, however is something else altogether. In addition to that, any faith or belief system that excludes others because they don't believe the same way is elitist, and narrow-minded. Imho.

The first problem I notice with this mindset is if someone hypothetically saw a particular god had a conversation with him/she/it and then wrote about the events he witnessed you would make what psychologist call the fundamental attribution error which is the tendency to overvalue dispositional factors(personality belief ect) and downplay situational factors when understanding others behavior.
The second problem I see is that you automatically assume people who believe there is only one truth(which is far more logical than believing they are all true) are narrow minded and elitist. This shows that you enter every conversation with a very high level of bias, and it makes you seem narrow-minded.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

The second problem I see is that you automatically assume people who believe there is only one truth(which is far more logical than believing they are all true) are narrow minded and elitist. This shows that you enter every conversation with a very high level of bias, and it makes you seem narrow-minded.

You believe that there is only one truth, and that you have it, right? How is that NOT narrow minded, elitist and a very high level of bias on your part?

a reply to: windword

Since when does man own God's truth? God owns HIS own truth - I suppose who HE tells it to, you must take up any issue with, with HIM.

a reply to: OpinionatedB

Can you please give me an example of an empirical truth?

originally posted by: akushla99
You just did exactly what I outlined in my post - are you aware of this?...extrapolating a determination outcome based on what you've understood about the word omniscient...

I know what word omniscient means, knowing all, includes knowing the future, and knowing the future, means the future is predetermined. It's a paradox and I think that's what you... don't understand.
Again what will god learn or gain by giving the humans free will, if he already knows everything they'll do?
What's the point of creation then?

''The existence of free will means that god is not omnipotent or omniscience., because if he was he would have no needs for approval by his creation, and no intentions to test us by giving us free will...." Quote Dr1Akula

It would probably help your POV if you didn't use a flawed rationale (that I'm assuming, isn't yours) to support a resultant circular argument...cos that would be silly... The words of men (women?) you (or anyone else for that matter) being quoted (you did need to make the decision to look-up, copy, paste these verses) does not alter the question (do robots question?) of the veracity of free will.

The most flawed subject which leads to flawed reasoning is the existence of such a god to begin with....
Of course we have some sort of free will, but it's not given by god,
Why would such a ''perfect'' being need us to believe in him? How come such a being needs the approval and acceptance of his own creation?
Why did he created us with free will if he already knew what Adam and Eve would do in the first place?
He knows all, it's all predetermined for him there is nothing to be proved or gained.
He created Hell for those who he already knew will disobey him (by their free will), to suffer forever.
Why would a loving god bother to create us in such a way if he already knew some of his children would suffer forever?
If we doubt and sin, he created us that way. So god made a mistake....
Can an omniscient being make a mistake?
This leads to a conclusion... the concept of god, is what is flawed.

from your previous post:

''You cannot trick a robot (without free will) that is 'programmed', because it has no capacity to distinguish''

Are you saying god gave us free will to be able to trick us? that's why he put the serpent in Heaven?
Why would an omniscient god play ''games'' with his creation leading to ultimate punishments? No sense at all...

The fact that you do not remember being born (or perhaps you do?) brings into question whether you were born at all...but then, none of the documentation relating to this event was recorded by doctors/nurses etc recieving the information through a divine means...

?????

"Isn't our purpose of creation in contrast with free will?" Quote Dr1Akula
NO...except if you want to accept the narrow-cast definitions, i.e. Predestination... In effect...no free will - ZERO RESPONSIBILITY for actions/thoughts...
Free will - responsibility for all action and thought (regardless of whether you remember the nested decision associated or not)...

The bible suggests predestination and the will of god, not me... but what would it be without contradictions...
Of course I think we have free will, and we are responsible for our actions
because there is no god, if there was a god then HE would be responsible for making us what we are
(to think as we do, to have ''sinful'' desires, and make bad decisions) HE would be responsible for our human nature!

free will and an omnipotent, omniscient creator do not blend, I think this is what you don't understand

Seems to me that christians want to have their cake and eat it too, by not accepting the flaws in their religion,
trying to justify them in every way possible.
So I will say it again
The religious ''free will'' was invented to explain the unexplainable and conceal the flawed rationale of god, such as why god does or does not intervene in certain circumstances, or why he allows the raping of children, the death and suffering of the innocents, people dying from hunger, letting Hitler and other beasts do their evil # etc.

Oh, I forgot, the phrase '' god works in mysterious ways'' it helps with that too...

originally posted by: MissSmartypants
And don't say because a loving God would never allow bad things to happen to us. If God didn't create us with free will then He just would have been making a bunch of copies of himself. By giving us free will we continue the creation process that He started. And free will often leads to bad things happening to us. Its our choice. He's there if we ask Him to be but He doesn't force His will on us.

How does an all-knowing God not know exactly what his creations will do before he creates them?

How does an all-powerful God not create his creations to do exactly that which he wants them to do?

Now, to answer your question, nothing about a creator sets me off. It's the people claiming that this creator exists and agrees with them that is the problem. It's also their inability to distinguish between belief and fact that "sets me off".

a reply to: Dr1Akula

"...extrapolating a determination outcome based on what you've understood about the word omniscient..." Quote Å99

You may know what the word means, but, tacking "...means the future is predetermined...", and this means we have no free will...and then asking, what will God gain by this - is padding the discussion that you are presenting "with an extrapolation of a determinant outcome based on what you understand the word to mean"...
The free will mandate is extended to all - there is no limitation/modification/hedge-bets to what is possible and probable (all probabilities and possibilities which are known)...this doesn't mean they are 'predetermined' to one outcome (but all outcomes are known - omniscience)...there is no compulsion (other than self-imposed [through free will] compulsion) to follow one event branch or another...this is the way things pan out, whether you believe in a god or not. The major religions have invented an adversary (the story wouldn't be the same without it) fear, compulsion, rules - cos you don't wanna end up in a volcano for eternity...pffft...
Those bardos exist...created by generation upon generation of concretised thought-form...if there is any 'sin', it is the abrogation to take responsibility for your own actions and thoughts - there can be no fault outside of this paradigm (and does not make sense, as you say)...but does not mean that intervention is a mandatory part of this process - it isn't...otherwise the monsters of history would never have reared thier heads for complete athiests to ask 'why would god allow this to happen' - ultimate, timeless, multi-life free will...

"The most flawed subject which leads to flawed reasoning is the existence of such a god to begin with...." Quote Dr1Akula

Then dispense with the god part, and the results are the same. People making dumb decisions that they dont remember making, and therefore not taking responsibility for thier predicament...blaming fate (a purely scientific term pffft)...with enough data, these results should be 100% predictable (but they're not)...because an algorithm to include every insignificant decision arrived at through free will cannot be written...so, possible and probable outcomes can be known (not necessarily acted upon) - and negating unlimited free will if acted upon by an outside force...

"This leads to a conclusion... the concept of god, is what is flawed." Quote Dr1Akula

100% AGREE

"Are you saying god gave us free will to be able to trick us? that's why he put the serpent in Heaven?
Why would an omniscient god play ''games'' with his creation leading to ultimate punishments? No sense at all..." Quote Dr1Akula

In complete agreement.

"The bible suggests predestination and the will of god, not me... but what would it be without contradictions..." Quote Dr1Akula

El biblo can suggest whatever it wants (more specifically - many people can agree that it suggests whatever it wants).

"free will and an omnipotent, omniscient creator do not blend, I think this is what you don't understand" Quote Dr1Akula

Probly a good idea not to assume what I understand.

"Seems to me that christians want to have their cake and eat it too, by not accepting the flaws in their religion,
trying to justify them in every way possible." Quote Dr1Akula

100% AGREE

"So I will say it again
The religious ''free will'' was invented to explain the unexplainable and conceal the flawed rationale of god, such as why god does or does not intervene in certain circumstances, or why he allows the raping of children, the death and suffering of the innocents, people dying from hunger, letting Hitler and other beasts do their evil # etc." Quote Dr1Akula

I think I covered that.

A99

Yes man has a will (so do all living things).The will is the mechanism (for lack of another word) to make choices…however none of those choices are free of causation.Every cause has an effect and every effect had a cause .None of the causes or effects originated from the causer or observer of the effect because there were a multitude of effect events that preceded every event that you were not the cause of(that’s alot of cause and effect!!).Those events effect and cause your choices.They are the pallet to choose from to paint your “cause” the will is only the mechanism that makes choices however none of those choices are free from causation.

The myth of the Christian religious free will is grounded in the false construct of freely choosing to “believe” in doctrines of religion.Which leads to doctrines like Christianity’s “salvation” by faith choice.It is based in the false doctrine that to truly “love” God you must freely chose to.If you don’t freely choose to love God you cannot believe in them and therefore you cannot choose the free gift of salvation.

Those doctrines are circular arguments around red herrings.The fact is nothing has a will free of causation.It is the height of vanity to believe because you made a free will choice it will “cause” an event such as “salvation”.The whole premise is flawed from it’s inception.Fore mostly the Christian doctrine of “salvation” by faith (or works) is false and is only a extrapolation of religion.It is only “believed” because it is taught as a foundational doctrine of the Christian(30,000 sects and counting) religion(not counting the millions of free lancers).It is not the “natural” intuition to embrace such a doctrine.

A baby does not have a natural inclination to “believe” they must “qualify” by a criteria to be loved by their parents(and good parents would agree) ...that love is expected by the baby with zero qualifications. Unfortunately as the baby grows older their perception of “love” will change to it’s Belief System formed from their experiences.The false construct of religious free will leads to the false circular logic of ..I do good because I freely CHOSE to be good therefore I choose God because only good people choose God because they are good.

…and of course the false piety of ..I am EVIL and do not deserve Gods “love” but God loves me anyways because I love God(or the reverse… God loved me first) and I CHOOSE to do his will because I believe in God even though I do evil.This is nothing more than a immature double minded game of self righteousness not piety.

The fact is the creator God did not “give” man free will(even though a multitude of Christians believe their God did and it is in the bible even though it is not).The fact is the belief in a free will is the common belief across the board of all humanity from extremist atheist non God believers to extremist religious God believers.Man having a free will is the universal belief of mankind that is not logical but believed anyways because it is formed through their Belief System religion.The false belief of free will It is the biggest hurdle of mankind that is impossible to jump over..and few believe it even exists.However the only way to get over that hurdle(and know it exists) is to be thrown over it by the creator God.

Being thrown over the high gauntlet of free will is the beginning of the perception of reality that man is not the captain of their own destiny (thank God!!) and that the fate of all of mankind and EVERYTHING is inextricably in the palm of the creator Gods hand.The absolute sovereignty of the creator God is the most hated of all doctrines. Mankinds nature of religion is to fight this to the death(and they will) even when they think they “believe the opposite! The belief in a free will is the source of all blindness to reality.It is man creating a God in their own image and believing “thy”(my) will be done.

The free will doctrine is believed and swallowed so easily because it is the fruit/seed of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.All of a persons belief grows from it.They experience everything through it (belief).They choose to believe what they want(desire…will) to believe by their “observation”.It's a vicious cycle of belief forming belief through false perception.

Fortunately the creator God is not faulting or condeming anyone for it because that is the nature of mankind (and all living things) and that is how the creator God created them so in essence the creator God is “responsible” for everything(in both sense of the word) however the chooser is “accountable” for all they do and choose.

In other words man has a will that they choose with and all of the choices have consequences(favorable and/or unfavorable) and THOSE are what man is accountable for.It is the way the physical realm “life”system works whether anyone believes or likes it or not.Unfortunately (and very fortunately) the only way out the cycle is to be “out” of your mind…..your religious carnal mind which is the domain of the adversary (satan) which is against(in enmity) the will of the creator God.

In other words mans “base” nature is to believe they are “a God” simply because they were created by the creator God. Consequentially they create a God in their own image in their religious carnal mind. However that is completely contrary to their i.e. they are NOT the creator God).However mankind by their very nature(religious) does not believe they have created a God in their own image and that “their God” is themselves because they are deluded that they have a free will(a state of being only the creator God experiences) .Of course believing you are God(have a free will) could not be further from the truth of reality yet billions believe it without a thought of the illogical(and disastrous) implications.

Reality pokes it’s truthful head up everyday when man experience a lack of control of the cause of effect events.They are fooled that just because “they” implement plan A it caused result B while that is a completely different mechanism of reality at work.The construct of cause and effect is an infinitely complex equation to never be summed by mans calculation.However the sum will always come out to be exactly what it is supposed to be with an infinite amount of numbers(called irrational numbers by mathematicians).

The bottom line is mans futile belief they have a will of free of cause is the source(seed..from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil) of all the division of mankinds life between each other and all of creation and the creator God.The life in the physical realm is multiple billions of Gods "willing" away their life’s in vain believing they are free when they are in fact in a prison of delusion.When a person does not seek to embrace the falseness of a free will because the creator God has set them free the bars disappear.To believe you are free when you are deep within a prison cell of your own making is the effect of free will…which is not freedom.

a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

The first problem I notice with this mindset is if someone hypothetically saw a particular god had a conversation with him/she/it and then wrote about the events he witnessed you would make what psychologist call the fundamental attribution error which is the tendency to overvalue dispositional factors(personality belief ect) and downplay situational factors when understanding others behavior.

You would be correct, at least to some degree. Experience and much study have proven to me that if a creator(s) exists, that entity is not Xtian, Muslim, Jewish, or any of the other myriad of religions. They are all man made, as is the concept of gods, goddesses, and so on. So yes, I'm going to look at disposition first, and situational factors second.

The second problem I see is that you automatically assume people who believe there is only one truth(which is far more logical than believing they are all true) are narrow minded and elitist. This shows that you enter every conversation with a very high level of bias, and it makes you seem narrow-minded.

This is where you err. Believing there is likely only one truth is indeed logical. Believing you have the market cornered on that truth when it comes to this topic is foolhardy at best, and self-righteous at worst.

But none of this really matters sotl. The fact is, I haven't forgotten how I felt and thought as a Xtian. There was no question in my mind, or my heart, that Xtianity was IT. God was God. Jesus was the way, the truth, and the life. How anyone could not see such a simple truth was beyond my capacity to understand. It's right in front of our faces every day. How can you not see him? He's everywhere. He is all in all. And he's awesome! I just could not imagine being or thinking any other way for many years.
The problem is, belonging to any elitist and exclusionary sect of religion is like waking up every morning, and taking the blue pill. Or drinking the Kool-aid. It's safe, and you don't have to question anything. You can remain in the double-bind for the rest of your life.

I chose the red pill after almost 30 years, and I'm glad I did, because it changed my life, and allowed me to see the near inescapable bondage I was not only under, but had bound myself in. Don't seek your truth, or my truth. Seek THE truth. It's not in Xtianity, or any other controlled belief system. But alas, I don't expect you to listen to me. At this point, you are where I was. Nothing will change your heart until the desire for truth becomes more important than your desire to be right.

a reply to: akushla99

Then dispense with the god part, and the results are the same. People making dumb decisions that they dont remember making, and therefore not taking responsibility for thier predicament...blaming fate

Nice reading,
I am sorry I wrongly assumed what you might didn't understand...
cheers mate

If the Abrahamic God was truly loving, understanding, forgiving, and knew our hearts, he would forgive most of us who are atheists to the Christian religion. Only the personality of a petulant, spoiled child (or God-man) would punish people for following their hearts, just because our hearts were not aligned with theirs. A lot of us came to our conclusions by honest soul-searching and seeking the truth.

Does God want idiots and zombies who never learn the truth for themselves? Does he want people who are indoctrinated (brainwashed) as children who never think for themselves? Is that what he wants?? Because the fact of the matter is, without indoctrination (brainwashing) of children, Christianity and Islam would have faded away a long time ago.

For myself, I can simple state that after many years of living my childhood and younger life in a religious environment, I have absolutely NO faith in Christianity whatsoever. I've read the bible (several times) and personally I am stunned that anyone would take it as fact. The inconsistencies, the lies, the contradictions, the horrible megalomanic behavior from the so-called God of Love... I'm not big on gut instincts, but every instinct I have screams that the bible is BS, literally as I was reading it. How can God hold me accountable for not having faith in a religion that I feel was made up and has nothing to do with any real 'truth', for not having faith in Jesus when I believe with all my heart that the people who wrote the bible are full of it and the people who put it together we're not under the influence of divinity whatsoever. Like many atheists to the Abrahamic religions, I can give you dozens of solid, logical examples of why I think these religions are a farce and not the 'truth' at all. I can give you a dozen examples off the top of my head of why the philosophical concept of freewill is total BS.

But you don't want to hear any of that.

For two thousands years only the bravest non-sheep ever dared to wonder and question whether God and the bible was really the truth or not. The sheep of fear-based religions rarely question.. because they are afraid of punishment. God wants fearful sheep. He wants you to be afraid of Him. But of course, he loves you.

So I'll give you the same line of crap religious people used to give me when I had questions. Ask God. If you don't understand why non-believers feel the way they do, ask God. He has all the answers, and all you have to do is ask, right? Well, go ask God. I doubt you'll really get the 'truth', but why ask us atheists at all? The vast majority of believers only want to be right, not to have an honest discussion with other people about atheism.

If there is one thing I've learned after several decades on this planet is that I don't trust people and their religious/spiritual ideologies they pass of as 'truth', whatsoever. Look at the terrible rationalizations in this very thread? Yes, I must not want to go to heaven, right? smh

Religion is the fodder of the ignorant and the blind. People who can't accept life (and death) and have to fall into some sort of belief system so they feel ok about the brutal nature of life (the same reasoning can be seen in all the other major religions and spiritualities, as well). The vast majority of Christians these days only call themselves that so they can have their get-out-of-Hell free card. They believe humans are the darlings of God and the entire universe revolves around us... so much so, that all the rules of life and death don't really apply to us (at least not the ones they don't like, like death). We don't actually die. We go to a place where all the stuff we don't like about life doesn't exist, and we get to hang out with our dead relatives and sing and dance in streets of gold. Any other wacky belief is Satanism, of course.

a reply to: MissSmartypants

If God didn't create us with free will then He just would have been making a bunch of copies of himself.

exactly. only one person is allowed to be the center of attention. and the ten commandments make it very clear who that one person is supposed to be.

a reply to: Klassified

Klassified,
Thanks for deny ignorance and for writing a very reasonable post.I agree with you that unfortunately many would not understand any of it because they only want to believe they are right not know the truth.

a reply to: Calalini

I've read the bible (several times) and personally I am stunned that anyone would take it as fact. The inconsistencies, the lies, the contradictions, the horrible megalomanic behavior from the so-called God of Love... I'm not big on gut instincts, but every instinct I have screams that the bible is BS, literally as I was reading it. How can God hold me accountable for not having faith in a religion that I feel was made up and has nothing to do with any real 'truth', for not having faith in Jesus when I believe with all my heart that the people who wrote the bible are full of it and the people who put it together we're not under the influence of divinity whatsoever. Like many atheists to the Abrahamic religions, I can give you dozens of solid, logical examples of why I think these religions are a farce and not the 'truth' at all. I can give you a dozen examples off the top of my head of why the philosophical concept of freewill is total BS.

That is quite a harsh decision you have made. Not arguing with you nor trying to be contentious because you are entitled to your opinions as well as anyone else. I see that you have already got that bible thing all figured out. To me that is about the hardest part in living but when I read the ATS posters I really envy most of them cause they have this afterlife thing all figured out and here I am some ninety years just as dumb as when I was eighteen. I still haven't got it all figured out but am still working on it.

Maybe you could help guys like me understand just how 39 books of OT literature written by 28 different guys who are scattered all over the known world and in different times can somehow relate to each other in agreement of the same Creator? How in the world could people gather all of these individual stories and bind them into one big book and all tell the same lie?

Then we have 8 or 9 more guys writing another 27 books and years later telling us some of the same stories that the other 28 guys lied about. So now we have 36 or 37 guys lying about the same bogus Creator. But the lie doesn't stop there. Now they have the guts to add more lies about the Creator having a Son that offers eternal life after death.

Now if you were in my shoes with one foot in the grave just what would you do? Would you take a second look at this bible thing or maybe some other better offer? What is the better offer to you?

a reply to: Calalini

Thank you for your insightful post. As you correctly point out, believers expect non-believers to justify their lack of belief. I don't know why they'd have to ask questions about anything when they could just ask their God.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: MissSmartypants

If God didn't create us with free will then He just would have been making a bunch of copies of himself.

exactly. only one person is allowed to be the center of attention. and the ten commandments make it very clear who that one person is supposed to be.

I see human free will as being an impossibility when the creator, as believers claim, is all-knowing and all-powerful.

Can you explain how an all-knowing creator could not know exactly what his creations would do before he created them?

Can you explain how an all-powerful creator could not create his creations to do exactly that which he wanted them to do?

a reply to: Seede
But they weren't scattered all over the known world. They were all in one area of the world, and had access to previous texts that had been written. Besides that they were all Hebrew, and already knew what they believed. Once you understand the doctrine and laws of the faith, it isn't rocket science to write a short book in the bible, and make it jive with the others. Especially if you're the writer of more than one of those books. New Testament, same thing.

Now if you were in my shoes with one foot in the grave just what would you do? Would you take a second look at this bible thing or maybe some other better offer? What is the better offer to you?

I'm just a young guy to you, only being in my mid 50's, but I've been the bible route. Almost 3 decades of it as a preacher, teacher, and elder. I was devout. If you believe in a creator, then forget all of your religious learning, and approach that creator with NO preconceived notions about who or what that creator is. As an ignorant child, seek the truth, one on one, with no expectations or bias. If you will do that, you won't come away empty handed, if you're sincere.

BTW. Get your foot out of that grave, and hang around with us for a while longer.