Why Does The Concept Of A Creator God Who Knows Us Individually Set You Off?

And don't say because a loving God would never allow bad things to happen to us. If God didn't create us with free will then He just would have been making a bunch of copies of himself. By giving us free will we continue the creation process that He started. And free will often leads to bad things happening to us. Its our choice. He's there if we ask Him to be but He doesn't force His will on us.

DNA is how we are individually known, physically.

The memory of each individual will be how our deeds are known.

Your mind is like a security cam. Everyone has one.

so are we a projection of god with our own individuality trying to find him within ourselves?

originally posted by: MissSmartypants
And don't say because a loving God would never allow bad things to happen to us. If God didn't create us with free will then He just would have been making a bunch of copies of himself. By giving us free will we continue the creation process that He started. And free will often leads to bad things happening to us. Its our choice. He's there if we ask Him to be but He doesn't force His will on us.

The concept of a "creator(s)" doesn't set me off. The man made concept of deities, the divine, gods, and goddessses, however is something else altogether. In addition to that, any faith or belief system that excludes others because they don't believe the same way is elitist, and narrow-minded. Imho.

The "creator(s)", if he/she/they exist, is neither Xtian, Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, or any other set of beliefs and rules concocted by humans...

What sets me off is the Matter-of-Fact and Know-It-All attitudes some people get when talking about a god or gods. Sure, they can claim to be a precious little snowflake and have a 1 on 1 personal relationship with god. However, at the end of the day, I'm reasonably convinced they're honestly just making a Tulpa.

Beyond the behavior of some, I really don't care one way or the other about the idea. Just as long as it's not rammed down my throat, it's all good.

a reply to: MissSmartypants

Neither the concept of god, gods, or goddesses sets me off in fact I find thinking about it mildly fun.

On the other hand it is the people that believe in them that act upon it that does have the effect of setting me off. Most of the concepts on the matter are absolutely fine even healthy but like in the case with most Jesus believers they don't conduct themselves at all like their Jesus instead of following what he said they cherry pick parts of what was said to justify what they want and do.

I have met very few Christians that were Christ like. I think the same can be said for other religions as well but where I live I haven't met many to say for sure.

It isn't the gods it is the people who believe in them.

a reply to: MissSmartypants

You ask a question but tell us not to give the most obvious answer. Creator - God... pick 1 please. It is also hubris to presume your deity has a gender it prefers over other. Speaking of bad things happening to us being our choice... tell that to the 3 year old girl, who was raped and murdered. Was not her choice. Was not the choice of any other child who was at the wrong place and wrong time through no choices of their own just to be mowed down by a helicopter or artillery.

Its primitive superstition that should have been dumped centuries ago ...

May I answer your question in one word?

Accountability

Each wants to be his own god, make and live by his own rules, and be accountable to no one nor nothing outside of his own head.

a reply to: MissSmartypants

By giving us free will we continue the creation process that He started.

There lies your problem.

Free will isn't actually possible under the 'One True God' concept.

Because, by definition God is:

In monotheism and henotheism, God is conceived as the Supreme Being and principal object of faith.[1] The concept of God as described by theologians commonly includes the attributes of omniscience (infinite knowledge), omnipotence (unlimited power), omnipresence (present everywhere), omnibenevolence (perfect goodness), divine simplicity, and eternal and necessary existence

Bolding mine.

So if we just use simple logic, we can determine the following:

1. God knows everything.
2.God is timeless
3. If #1 and #2 are correct, this means God also knows everything that *will* happen in the future.
4."God's Plan" as an idea would indicate that all 3 of the above are true.

If that is the case, then there is no free will, just the illusion of free will governed by a fear of eternal damnation.

So that's my issue. It insults my intelligence for people to claim the 4 things above are true, yet at the same time try and claim that you have the 'choice' to do as you please.

You do not.

Everything has been set in motion by God and all the events that have transpired and will transpire are the result of his direct intervention, or willful non intervention.

Neither of which include or require free will for his creations.

~Tenth

It doesn't set me off, it just seems unrealistic.

“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.” — Marcus Aurelius

I personally tend to side with the latter, but really there is no way of knowing until you are dead. No point in stressing out over pleasing a being that we know nothing about outside of what some sheep herders wrote in a book 1500+ years ago.

I'm not sure free will exists. After my recent stay in hospital, a chap in the opposite room, had 4 prison guards with him. He was suffering from a brain tumour. The prison officers were there because the guy had been arrested for armed robbery. The guy had always been involved in petty crime, but it's believed his behaviour changed after the brain tumour had grown and was pressing on an area that controls behaviour and emotions. It's argued that the tumour had changed the mans behaviour turning him more violent. Maybe the tumour which was not his choice turned a petty criminal into a violent one. No free will involved. There must be countless cases like this

originally posted by: MissSmartypants
And don't say because a loving God would never allow bad things to happen to us. If God didn't create us with free will then He just would have been making a bunch of copies of himself. By giving us free will we continue the creation process that He started. And free will often leads to bad things happening to us. Its our choice. He's there if we ask Him to be but He doesn't force His will on us.

The point is does free will validate and justify evil?

All things remaining the same what difference would it make at the end of time?

Lots of evil things happened and a few "good" things happened. . . but it was worth it because God was bored and wanted to experiment and see how things played out in a big game?

If someones is going to be a puppet in a game it would be better not to be born at all than risk going to hell for failing at it.

a reply to: MissSmartypants

But do we really have free will?
Much of our lives are determined by things over which we have no control - we don't decide whether our parents will copulate, as infants we cannot choose the food we eat that will determine our life-long health, as children we are subject to myriad influences that determine our personalities, beliefs and religion, and even as adults we are subject to events much more than we control them. From that perspective, our free will is limited.

If God didn't create us with free will then He just would have been making a bunch of copies of himself. By giving us free will we continue the creation process that He started.

The problem is that if we accept the god is omnipotent, omniscience and outside the realms of time, he already knew everything about his creations when he created them, including the life's, acts, beliefs and thoughts of every single human, up to now and into the future.
It may seem (the creation) as a process to us but for god is not a process at all, it's all predetermined.

Did god really gave us free will?
If god knows all (omniscience), he knows everything we did and everything we will do in the future, therefore we are bound to predestination. He knows already every influence, past, present and future on our lives. He knows how we behave, and how we will behave in every situation. He knows what we will do and say in every situation, whether we will lie or tell the truth, whether we will love our neighbors or hate them. He knows whether we will worship or abandon him. It makes no difference what choices we have, whether we pray and worship or sin and blaspheme, god already knows what we will do, even before we are born whether we will enter heaven or hell after we die. Our free will is an illusion, our lives are forever fixed in the amber of god's mind.

To answer the title of this thread
God does not have to be the creator of the universe, in some religions the world comes first and then the gods appear.
If everything including the universe needs a creator then who created god?
And if god doesn't need a creator why there is such a need for the universe?

One could ask, why did he bothered with the creation at all.... if he did that because he wanted to give us a chance to experience life then why does he need us to believe in him? How come an omnipotent being needs the approval of his creation?
If he exists, he should have no needs, and no intentions to test us....
He knows all, it's all predetermined for him there is nothing to be proved or gained?
It just doesn't make sense... at all

Several things come to mind and I'm just stating them freely.

1. For some omniscient force to individually know everyone, that becomes the ability to control and decide the outcome of the individual's fate. For instance, there was a recent occurrence of a man who killed both his wife in a hospital and himself and announced it previously on FB. The top comment in that was someone claiming that it's up to the creator to decide when it's time for us to die. That infuriated me as since I do not believe in a creator,I insist that you do not presume your beliefs exist to control my fate. It's not up to any creator or fate for my end to be determined, rather an accumulation of decisions and actions that have either led up to that or biological issues that have nothing whatsoever to do with a creator.

2. What is knowing someone? Chances are there are many things you do not understand about yourself much less anyone else you are familiar with. Every person is made up of their individual experiences with only base tendencies such as aggression or passivity being innate qualities in a human. Beyond those innate qualities are merely labels that you take upon yourself to define what is you and frankly, you're not that different from anyone else on this planet once you take those away. There' are many questions involving individuality and how much of that is a real thing.

3. Say you dappled with genetics and created your own variety of ant and during that process you became innately connected to each individual ant that was born of that creation throughout it's existence which quickly accumulates to millions. What would be the point of it? Why would you care? Now your creation is running rampant and destroying other colonies and species. Does that change things?

4. I don't believe in a creator. There is nothing there. The whole idea is preposterous and bewildering that it exists so strongly in today's modern society. Whenever I see anything regarding this falsehood claimed otherwise, it is infuriating to see the blatant ignorance continuing it's hold upon the bags of bacteria that are humans.

originally posted by: tothetenthpower
a reply to: MissSmartypants

By giving us free will we continue the creation process that He started.

There lies your problem.

Free will isn't actually possible under the 'One True God' concept.

Because, by definition God is:

In monotheism and henotheism, God is conceived as the Supreme Being and principal object of faith.[1] The concept of God as described by theologians commonly includes the attributes of omniscience (infinite knowledge), omnipotence (unlimited power), omnipresence (present everywhere), omnibenevolence (perfect goodness), divine simplicity, and eternal and necessary existence

Bolding mine.

So if we just use simple logic, we can determine the following:

1. God knows everything.
2.God is timeless
3. If #1 and #2 are correct, this means God also knows everything that *will* happen in the future.
4."God's Plan" as an idea would indicate that all 3 of the above are true.

If that is the case, then there is no free will, just the illusion of free will governed by a fear of eternal damnation.

So that's my issue. It insults my intelligence for people to claim the 4 things above are true, yet at the same time try and claim that you have the 'choice' to do as you please.

You do not.

Everything has been set in motion by God and all the events that have transpired and will transpire are the result of his direct intervention, or willful non intervention.

Neither of which include or require free will for his creations.

~Tenth

Does not negate the free will template.
The 'illusion of free will' debate is flawed. You cannot trick a robot (without free will) that is 'programmed', because it has no capacity to distinguish except in terms of programmable servo-mechanistic feedback systems...the 'limited free will' debate introduces a bridge that supports both at the same time. All instances brought up that seem to relate to the 'limited free will' stance - do not address the memory of choice, that have ramifications beyond an A+B therefore C equation (equations that require all parameters to be factored in, and every insignificant decision/choice in between)...DeepBlue can play chess, but can't make a cup of coffee.
Omniscience means all-knowing (not all-controlling).
Omnipotent means all powerful (not death dealing and regulatory).
Omnipresent means everywhere at once (mandatory when you are IT).

Conclusions drawn from a limited perspective will be limited to limited perspectives.

HNY

Å99

Because there is no reason to believe it is so. Other than a lot of peoples opinions.

All of the things our ancestors believed were controlled by the "gods" have been shown to be natural physical events.




a reply to: MissSmartypants

a reply to: MissSmartypants

And don't say because a loving God would never allow bad things to happen to us. If God didn't create us with free will then He just would have been making a bunch of copies of himself. By giving us free will we continue the creation process that He started. And free will often leads to bad things happening to us. Its our choice. He's there if we ask Him to be but He doesn't force His will on us.

Doesn't set me off one bit. I agree with your premise 100%. Most who are offended are those that do not want a god or anyone else telling them how to behave. Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die. Good song with a lot of truth.

a reply to: akushla99

Does not negate the free will template. The 'illusion of free will' debate is flawed.

I think not... god being omniscience means our lives are predetermined, and we are all bound to predestination.
So what is the point to give humans free will, if everything they'll do, is already known.
and why is there a need to make rules for humans to worship him, and test their faith, in order for them to get into Heaven, since he already knows the answer.
The existence of free will means that god is not omnipotent or omniscience., because if he was he would have no needs for approval by his creation, and no intentions to test us by giving us free will....

Also according to Isaiah 43:6-7, god created us for his glory:
''Bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the end of the earth, every one who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory''.
Isn't our purpose of creation in contrast with free will?

Furthermore predestination is the doctrine of the Bible, and says that god has a purpose and he is working all things out according to his own will and purpose (Ephesians 1:11; Daniel 4:35; Isaiah 14:24; 46:10). Predestination teaches that god neither does nor permits anything except what serves his purpose (Psalm 33:11). This means that god does all things as he wills.

The religious ''free will'' was invented to explain the unexplainable, such as, why god does or does not intervene in certain circumstances, or why he allows bad things to happen ... simple as that

a reply to: tothetenthpower

God actually speaks of both in the bible. Predestination AND Freewill. Here is the thing, just because God knows what I will choose, does NOT preclude that it was my choice to choose in the first place.

HE knows what will happen, but this does not mean it wasn't my choice. I am who I am, and I choose/or chose how I chose. Nothing limits our ability to choose... HE doesn't limit us just because HE knows our heart and what our choice will be.

HE loves all of us. Period. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

(Please note here, shall not perish, if you perish, you cease, not suffer eternal torment)

So, HE gave a plan out of love for his creation. He makes sure HIS creation knows about it. And allows Free Choice to exist.

Now.. we choose either for the plan, or against it. HE knows what we will choose, but HE offers to all. HE wants all to have a chance. Still free will.

HOWEVER.. because HE knows what we will choose... HIS chosen, those HE has a special place for, happen to be the ones who love HIM back.

So.. He chooses from among humankind, ONLY the ones who love HIM, in return. Not a bad deal.. HE does know all anyway. Why would God want to surround HIMSELF eternally with those who don't want to be there in the first place?

I want to be there, and, not everyone wants the same. I don't understand why. Its so beautiful. But it is what it is.