Jesus vs. Yahweh - The Future of Mankind Hangs in the Balance

a reply to: jmdewey60

Faith alone. From your post history, I don't think we'll ever agree on this point, even if I could literally show you 25 or more examples of "believe on Jesus Christ."

I'll provide one of my favorite examples and a bit of exposition to go along with it :

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

People that believe they can work their way to heaven definitely would be saying these things in that day. Do you see how all the emphasis is on their works?

Someone that believes it's simply by faith would never say such a thing to Jesus. They'd point to one of the literally hundred or more verses of scripture that say "faith."

And we know that God is no liar, so...

a reply to: graphuto

The OT set the stage for Jesus to come.

The Old Testament is not a person who is doing things.
That is God who is arranging things.

I thought it was generally understood by Christians that all of the old sacrifices and feasts, sabbaths, new moons, etc., were just a picture of Jesus.
I mean, Paul even implies as much in Hebrews 10, and I don't remember exactly where, somewhere in Colossians, but somewhere it's outright said that "these things were a shadow of things to come"

I think the writer of Hebrews was making a comparison with the analogy to the temple services.
I don't think that the idea was to say that these things existed solely so that later there could be a metaphor made from them.
One thing being a "shadow" of something else does not have to mean that it is significant in itself, but could merely be a reference to how insubstantial it is.

a reply to: jmdewey60

What exactly are you saying?

On one hand you say that you don't think their existence was for later metaphor, then on the other hand you say that, being a shadow, could be a reference to how insubstantial it is.

Pardon me if I'm being dense, but I don't get what you're trying to say.

a reply to: graphuto

People that believe they can work their way to heaven definitely would be saying these things in that day. Do you see how all the emphasis is on their works?

Someone that believes it's simply by faith would never say such a thing to Jesus. They'd point to one of the literally hundred or more verses of scripture that say "faith."

If you were to take into consideration the preceding verse,
Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
(2011 NIV)
you would see that Jesus is saying the opposite of your idea of "Faith alone", where just claiming things from Jesus is not enough, but you have to actually do what the teachings say.
Even if you go out and tell other people to live by those rules and they are saved, it doesn't mean that you can ignore them yourself and get away with it because God sees what you do.
The "ye that work iniquity" part is about this neglect of being a changed person, not that Jesus meant that their just mentioning their works was somehow working iniquity.

a reply to: graphuto

On one hand you say that you don't think their existence was for later metaphor, then on the other hand you say that, being a shadow, could be a reference to how insubstantial it is.

Circumcision and keeping holidays and having food restrictions, are all things that existed, and what was being talked about there in Colossians.

a reply to: jmdewey60

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

We could go on and on and on.
Saved people that do wrong will be judged in this life.
If you love God, you'll keep his commandments, but by no means can you work your way to heaven.
Man's righteousness is as filthy rags.

a reply to: jmdewey60

Well yeah. They were actual things, and the people actually did them. But their eternal salvation even then was still by faith, not by doing those things.

a reply to: graphuto

I will get to my replies when i get home later tonight...

But i will say Jesus did not teach faith alone... By posting the verses you have only shows how little you know what he actually taught...

You follow Paul by faith in his words alone

If you followed Jesus you would understand that faith alone is not enough...

You make his teaching null and void...

If he taught faith alone... The rest of his teaching throughout the gospel would be pointless for the authors to write

Remember he said specifically... Why call me lord and not do as i tell you...

All the gospels say HE tells us works of faith is required.... NOT faith alone

Judge me how you wish... Your words betray you... And your hatred for others shines like the sun

So very sad.

a reply to: graphuto

Man's righteousness is as filthy rags.

That isn't an actual quote but is a lamentation by those being drug off to captivity by the Babylonians, that their righteousness was all of a sudden meaningless since they bore the brunt of the punishment that was for what was really the transgressions of others.

In the example from Acts, we can see that there is more to being saved than just believing, since they were also baptized, so believing is the first step on the path here of sanctification, which "being saved" would be referring to.

In John 1:12, it is the right being given, to become sons, which again, is sanctification.

John 3:16 is an introduction to the concept of "eternal life", which is a quality of life that bears being in plain sight.

Romans 1:16 is talking about the same thing but just with different terminology, “The righteous will live by faith.”.

a reply to: graphuto

Saved people that do wrong will be judged in this life.
If you love God, you'll keep his commandments, but by no means can you work your way to heaven.
Man's righteousness is as filthy rags.

That's a contradiction to these verses:

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." - Matthew 7:21

"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." - James 2:26

a reply to: arpgme

Those same quotes are a contradiction to all of the ones that say "believe."
And it isn't really a contradiction. Faith without works is dead, yes. No one can see it, and it profits others nothing. Yet it still saves you.

originally posted by: Akragon


And im not a gnostic IF that is what you're implying

Yes I was implying you were a Gnostic, my apologies that I am wrong in your description

So to go off topic a little and with your kindness, can I ask what theology you base your beliefs on.
A bit of knowledge may help me understand your position.

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: graphuto

I will get to my replies when i get home later tonight...

But i will say Jesus did not teach faith alone... By posting the verses you have only shows how little you know what he actually taught...

You follow Paul by faith in his words alone

If you followed Jesus you would understand that faith alone is not enough...

You make his teaching null and void...

If he taught faith alone... The rest of his teaching throughout the gospel would be pointless for the authors to write

Remember he said specifically... Why call me lord and not do as i tell you...

All the gospels say HE tells us works of faith is required.... NOT faith alone

Judge me how you wish... Your words betray you... And your hatred for others shines like the sun

So very sad.

Well though I am recalcitrant to a large degree of what Akragon writes and what I assume he/she believes, I totally agree with what is written in this post
Faith alone is not enough, we are called to be Christ's servants, servants serve.
Jesus is our Lord and King, kings and lords are rulers and submitting to their laws is the duty of those who serve them.
If you deny their laws, live outside those laws, transgress the laws, then you will be labelled a transgressor and cast out from the Lords community.

Reading scripture that teaches faith alone is enough is denying so much other scripture.
Christianity is a balance, faith and righteous works, not for salvation, but pure love for Jesus.

If your Christianity is important to you then try reading some of the lessons in this link
www.meetingwithchrist.com...

Here are 31 practically crystal clear statements from the Bible that GETTING TO HEAVEN is about FAITH.
Heavenly rewards are a completely different subject, and those that do no works will be the lowest in the kingdom of heaven. But they'll still get there.

I don't see how anyone can continue to argue this at this point. Alot of these are clear STATEMENTS from the Bible.



Romans 5:1 - Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Romans 4:5 - But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 3:28 - Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Galatians 5:6 - For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Galatians 2:16 - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Philippians 3:9 - And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

John 1:12 - But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Galatians 2:21 - I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Romans 3:27 - Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

John 3:18 - He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Romans 10:9 - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 5:2 - By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Romans 4:16 - Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Romans 1:17 - For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Genesis 15:6 - And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Hebrews 11:8 - By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Titus 3:5 - Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Galatians 5:5 - For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Galatians 5:4 - Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Romans 5:9 - Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Romans 4:6 - Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Romans 4:3 - For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Acts 26:18 - To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Acts 16:31 - And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Galatians 3:24 - Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Galatians 3:11 - But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Galatians 3:10-13 - For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. (Read More...)

Galatians 3:8 - And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.

a reply to: graphuto

Philippians 3:9 - And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

"My own" meaning like what Paul says right before that verse, "in regards to the Law, blameless".
What that is, is having a set of rules that says do this and don't do that, and getting your life in accordance to the words of those rules, then looking at yourself and seeing how those words were fulfilled, then declaring yourself righteous.
God actually has a higher standard than that, and you have to have a spiritual connection with God to hope to reach it, and that connection is only through Jesus.

Romans 4:5 - But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

This is talking about the same sort of thing but from a different angle, where in Romans you had two groups that Paul was trying to reconcile, which were the Jewish and the gentile converts to Christianity, where to the one group, in their own minds, thought that the guide to being righteous was to continue with keeping the Law, while the other group had no desire to do that, and to just stick to common morality.

So the thing is that the Bible nowhere teaches that pure belief is a substitute for actual righteousness.
It says that we need faith, which is true but it is not a quality in itself devoid of any action.

a reply to: TinfoilTP

We can eliminate Elohim as the Son of God. We can eliminate Ruach Elohim (Spirit of God). We can eliminate the Serpent. Who is left to be the Son of God? Is there a Son we do not know? Is the Father calling Himself a Son of Himself? If you want to identify the Son of God as something other than Yahweh, then you must find him in the OT.

a reply to: graphuto

Doesn't the bible also say that faith without works is dead? So how can you say that someone who does no work can still make it on faith? That contradicts James' epistle. How can YOU be arguing it anymore?

a reply to: zardust

Great post. I will take a look tomorrow morning when I am fresh. It would make a good thread.

originally posted by: MamaJ
a reply to: AlephBet

I think they are the same.. not two ...but one.

After the split from both male and female we have evolution..

Jesus is the evolved one from Yahweh, Yeshua, Adam. Job, Mechelzedek, and so on.

In time he was made perfect and outside of time he has always been perfect.

Exactly. It's an orthogonal truth. Simply knowing that we were all perfection in Genesis 1 makes it clear why we needed to fall here to rise back. It's specifically what involution and evolution is.

originally posted by: gorsestar
a reply to: AlephBet

There are 31 occurrences of serpent, nacash, נָחָשׁ, in the Bible according to Strongs.
None of them refer to Yahweh. Duet 6:4 says that Yahweh is one.
Through the scriptures you can't prove that he is the serpent.

link

I only listed it as an option we can eliminate. The Serpent was created by Yahweh according to Genesis 3. It is a creation of his.