Government to Ordained Ministers: Celebrate Same-Sex Wedding or Go to Jail

a reply to: beezzer

Separation of church and state!

I'm sure this has already been brought up already but, I haven't read every reply.

I have no problem with what people do in their private lives. I do have a problem when it's shoved down my throat and I'm expected to accept it no questions asked.

Be gay, get married....I honestly don't care. Just don't force me to accept anything. I have a mind of my own with my own opinions. I don't need the government to tell me what I should believe or accept.

sheesh!

originally posted by: MagesticEsoteric
a reply to: beezzer

Separation of church and state!

I'm sure this has already been brought up already but, I haven't read every reply.

I have no problem with what people do in their private lives. I do have a problem when it's shoved down my throat and I'm expected to accept it no questions asked.

Be gay, get married....I honestly don't care. Just don't force me to accept anything. I have a mind of my own with my own opinions. I don't need the government to tell me what I should believe or accept.

sheesh!

I don't see how anti-discrimination laws are forcing people to believe anything. The laws do not say that you have believe homosexuality is ok or that them getting married is ok. The law states that if you want to do business, you cannot discriminate against those that wish to acquire your goods or services.

If gay marriage is legal and you offer non-church based marriage services, you must provide that service or face the consequences.

The Civil Rights Act of 1964: Title II - Public Accommodation

OOOOHOME | HISTORICAL DOCUMENTS | CIVIL RIGHTS 1964 | TITLE 2





TITLE II--INJUNCTIVE RELIEF AGAINST DISCRIMINATION IN PLACES OF PUBLIC ACCOMMODATION

OOOSEC. 201. (a) All persons shall be entitled to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, and privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, as defined in this section, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin.
OOO(b) Each of the following establishments which serves the public is a place of public accommodation within the meaning of this title if its operations affect commerce, or if discrimination or segregation by it is supported by State action:
OOO)(1) any inn, hotel, motel, or other establishment which provides lodging to transient guests, other than an establishment located within a building which contains not more than five rooms for rent or hire and which is actually occupied by the proprietor of such establishment as his residence;
OOO)(2) any restaurant, cafeteria, lunchroom, lunch counter, soda fountain, or other facility principally engaged in selling food for consumption on the premises, including, but not limited to, any such facility located on the premises of any retail establishment; or any gasoline station;
OO)O(3) any motion picture house, theater, concert hall, sports arena, stadium or other place of exhibition or entertainment; and
OOO)(4) any establishment (A)(i) which is physically located within the premises of any establishment otherwise covered by this subsection, or (ii) within the premises of which is physically located any such covered establishment, and (B) which holds itself out as serving patrons of such covered establishment.
OOO(c) The operations of an establishment affect commerce within the meaning of this title if (1) it is one of the establishments described in paragraph (1) of subsection (b); (2) in the case of an establishment described in paragraph (2) of subsection (b), it serves or offers to serve interstate travelers or a substantial portion of the food which it serves, or gasoline or other products which it sells, has moved in commerce; (3) in the case of an establishment described in paragraph (3) of subsection (b), it customarily presents films, performances, athletic teams, exhibitions, or other sources of entertainment which move in commerce; and (4) in the case of an establishment described in paragraph (4) of subsection (b), it is physically located within the premises of, or there is physically located within its premises, an establishment the operations of which affect commerce within the meaning of this subsection. For purposes of this section, "commerce" means travel, trade, traffic, commerce, transportation, or communication among the several States, or between the District of Columbia and any State, or between any foreign country or any territory or possession and any State or the District of Columbia, or between points in the same State but through any other State or the District of Columbia or a foreign country.
OOO(d) Discrimination or segregation by an establishment is supported by State action within the meaning of this title if such discrimination or segregation (1) is carried on under color of any law, statute, ordinance, or regulation; or (2) is carried on under color of any custom or usage required or enforced by officials of the State or political subdivision thereof; or (3) is required by action of the State or political subdivision thereof.
OOO(e) The provisions of this title shall not apply to a private club or other establishment not in fact open to the public, except to the extent that the facilities of such establishment are made available to the customers or patrons of an establishment within the scope of subsection (b)...

Had to snip. Since 1977 Individual States have been adding sexual preference to the list. Deal with it or don't operate a business in the public.

Link

And in case anyone forgot, the US Congress has the Constitutional authority to regulate commerce (Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3) making the Public Accommodation section of the Civil Rights Act, perfectly Constitutional. But it should be noted that Public Accommodation goes back a long, long way. It makes zero sense for a nation, city, town, village to allow commerce to be affected by the whims of it's merchants.

originally posted by: beezzer
Linky

For years, those in favor of same-sex marriage have argued that all Americans should be free to live as they choose. And yet in countless cases, the government has coerced those who simply wish to be free to live in accordance with their belief that marriage is the union of a man and a woman.


Ministers face a 180-day jail term and $1,000 fine for each day they decline to celebrate the same-sex wedding.

Just this weekend, a case has arisen in Idaho, where city officials have told ordained ministers they have to celebrate same-sex weddings or face fines and jail time.

Most who have read my posts know that I have no issue with gay marriage. But this is what many have warned about.

This is the PC over-reach, telling faith-based organizations what to believe and how to act.

I look forward to seeing everyone condemn the acts of government in this and support the ministers, regardless of their faith.

As always, read, reply, ignore or eat raw meat on the subway. It is always up to you.

The article you cited is published by Heritage Foundation, a virulent right wing Christian fundamentalist organization. The bias in the article shows in the headline. It's really about a wedding chapel (a business) refusing to serve gay people which is against the law.

originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: MarlinGrace

The man who stole and corrupted Libertarianism and revised to suit his right-wing, racist, sexist notions? No thank-you. he can kiss my ass.

Ya gotta like a woman who tells it like it is. So do you think what he said is wrong or it's just because he is a POS or both? I always thought it was a voluntary transaction, if I don't like someone I won't do business with them, and I wouldn't expect them to do business with me if they didn't like me. There is always another client or business to deal with.

There are around 350,000 Christian Churches in the US.

Not a single one has been or will be forced to hold any marriage ceremony that they didn't wish to.

A median 80% of the US describe themselves as Christian.

Not a single one has been told they have to believe in same-sex marriage or marry someone of their own gender

There are around 56 million very active church-goers every Sunday.

Not a single congregant anywhere has been forced to watch a same-sex marriage against their will.

Hartford Institute for Religious Research - Fast Facts

Seems to me that religious freedom in the US is doing just fine.

originally posted by: sheepslayer247

If gay marriage is legal and you offer non-church based marriage services, you must provide that service or face the consequences.

.... which effectively prevents Christians from catering to one of the biggest markets in the country. See how that works?

originally posted by: Bone75

originally posted by: sheepslayer247

If gay marriage is legal and you offer non-church based marriage services, you must provide that service or face the consequences.

.... which effectively prevents Christians from catering to one of the biggest markets in the country. See how that works?

No. Forgive me, I'm not understanding your point. Can you elaborate?

a reply to: Bone75

What doctrine or scripture prevents Christians from serving gay people?

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: Kali74

So if anyone makes a profit, then they can't have their own beliefs.

Their beliefs have to be sanctioned by the state.

Where in the bible does it say "thou shalt profit off thine faith"?

originally posted by: Bone75

originally posted by: sheepslayer247

If gay marriage is legal and you offer non-church based marriage services, you must provide that service or face the consequences.

.... which effectively prevents Christians from catering to one of the biggest markets in the country. See how that works?

Never mind, I think I understand now.

From what I have read, 80% of marriages happen in a church. So Christians would be just fine. But I'd be willing to bet that most Christians, if they run a non-church marriage chapel, would still be willing to marry a gay couple. Even Christians need to make a living.

originally posted by: Bone75

originally posted by: sheepslayer247

If gay marriage is legal and you offer non-church based marriage services, you must provide that service or face the consequences.

.... which effectively prevents Christians from catering to one of the biggest markets in the country. See how that works?

No, that's not how it works.

I am wondering is the fact that the business owners are ministers what makes people feel they should have special rights in this case?

As far as I can tell that is the only thing that makes this any different from another business.


If I am wrong on that can someone explain how?

Here's another question ... just what criteria is going to constitute "ordained minister" exactly?

Can I ordain myself?

Do I have to be ordained by another ordained person?

Because, from the "Hitching Post Wedding Chapel's - Meet the Staff" Section

Donald and Lynn became ordained ministers after schooling and have served in various churches and leadership roles.

"After schoolin' " huh? Wow, that's a lot of pride in your faith, isn't it?

What church are they "ordained" in?

Hey, you know what would be funny? I could get my minsterial credentials online from a place like Ordination4All.com - Message from Above Ministries open a wedding chapel and refuse to marry differently sexed couples! How do you think that would go over?

Oh, and what if I asked them if they'd ever been divorced and refused to help them commit adultery by marrying them?

Because, you know, Matthew, Mark and Luke said:

Matthew 5:32 But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Mark 10:11 And he said to them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her, 12 and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.”

Luke 16:18 “Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.

Funny how Bible beliefs tend to fly out the window when it's inconvenient, eh?

Oh, and if you want to get ordained and didn't like Ordinations4U or whatever above there are over 1.8 million other choices on the internet.

originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: Kali74

So if anyone makes a profit, then they can't have their own beliefs.

Their beliefs have to be sanctioned by the state.

Where in the bible does it say "thou shalt profit off thine faith"?

How is that relevant? Irregardless of whether it says it or not, those who enter into commerce are still subject to the laws governing commerce.

a reply to: MrSpad
If it is a for profit business, then the various laws and protections for churches would not apply.

Many people tend to forget about such.

a reply to: MarlinGrace

But is a patron going to be able to buy the vital good you're selling elsewhere or is he/she going to continue to meet the same asinine discrimination they found with you? But let's look beyond the human touchy feely aspect. Economically is it smart for a government to allow discriminatory commerce within their jurisdiction? No, it's pretty damn stupid. Whether you realize it or not, a government has the authority to deny business licenses and within the United States in order to obtain a business license a person or persons must agree to the terms of the local, state and federal government. One of those terms is to not discriminate and it has always been such, way back before the Civil Rights movement, it's just that the only people considered 'the public' were white men however, if Bob didn't like Steve he still had to sell nails to him if he operated a hardware store in downtown Upyoursville. To allow discrimination is to open your jurisdiction to all kinds of unrest which isn't good if you want your jurisdiction to flourish.

Rothbard was very wrong and rewrote some history in order to make his theories appear to work. His notion of a free market based on natural law cannot help but lead to interventionism which by all economic theory is a bad thing. A fully freely accessible free market is the only thing that can ever work, you sell, I buy. If I don't believe that men should drink alcohol why the hell would I open a liquor store? A market shouldn't abide cry-babies that can't handle selling goods and services to a diverse public.

I pity the Knapps, they're so small minded as to think that their religious views would continue to stand in authority in this Non-Christian Nation that held Christians as the gold standard for citizens. So they opened a business, never expecting their notion of marriage to ever be challenged, it is they that put themselves in a position of having to compromise that religious belief or suffer the consequences. There is no law that compels anyone to open a business to the public, and there is no law that states that they can't believe that marriage is only between a man and a woman. But, they are not being persecuted for their faith, they are being persecuted because their State now includes Gays as members of the public and now as public business owners they are refusing to comply to the newly expanded definition of the existing law. Boo hoo. Opening a business is always a gamble and they lost.

a reply to: Gryphon66

There are a ton of ministers who outright refuse to marry couples who have been divorced. A LOT of them will refuse. My brother and his (soon to be at the time) third wife had a really hard time finding a Christian minister who would perform a church wedding because he had been married previously and the other spouses were still alive.

They visited at least a dozen (if not more) churches trying to find a willing one. I don't think it ever crossed either of their minds to force one of those places to perform the marriage. They asked, if they said no, they piled back into their little car and tried the next one until they found one that would do it.

So yeah... It's not just gay people.

I imagine it will be damn near impossible to find one that will do it for the fourth time. I suspect he will see in short order.

Most gay folks can't change their sexual orientation any more than they can change the color of their eyes.

Remember.......... it took a war to change the way Blacks were being treated. If it takes legislation to help these people gain freedom, then so be it.