Kristallnacht : A warning from history

originally posted by: neformore

originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: neformore
Of coarse we should avoid generalizations.

Says the man who then goes ahead and makes them...

Did you read all of my OP, or did you just see the first few lines?

Did you actually read this?

I understand that there are people out there in the world who wish to do others harm, under the guise of a perversion of a religion. I get that. I don't want to see those people in my world. I have no problem whatsoever with the armed forces of any nation being used to bring cold blooded killers to justice. None at all.

But those people do not represent all muslims - despite what some of the carefully crafted fear mongering propaganda out there will try and tell you.

I'm guessing you didn't. Maybe you should.

FTR, the only country actually invaded militarily by muslims in the past 100 years was Iran, and that was by Iraq in 1980. There have been civil wars - and what is ongoing at present in Iraq/Syria is a civil war - but no invasions.

a reply to: SLAYER69

No, but if you actually do some research, you would find that Muslims have denounced extremism in general. It isn't hard...

This page focuses on condemnations of the 9/11 terrorist attacks and other terrorist incidents since then as well as of terrorism in general. It is not a complete listing of all condemnations written or spoken by Muslims but is intended to provide a representative sample.

It has often been claimed in the media that Muslims are "silent" and do not condemn terrorism. This page is intended to refute that claim. Muslims have not been silent. Not even close. See also How American Muslims Really Responded to September 11 for more information about the Muslim response to 9/11. And another listing is at Statements Against Terror. Also Muslim Voices Against Terrorism. Related commentary at Friedman Wrong About Muslims Again , by Juan Cole and The Myth of Muslim Condemnation of Terror by Ali Eteraz.

www.muhajabah.com...

Fatwa on Terrorism and Suicide Bombings is a 600-page (Urdu version), 512-page (English version) Islamic decree by scholar Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri which demonstrates from the Quran and Sunnah that terrorism and suicide bombings are unjust and evil, and thus un-Islamic. It was published in London as a book...This fatwa is a direct refutation of the ideology of Al-Qaeda and the Taliban. It is one of the most extensive Islamic anti-terrorism rulings, an "absolute" condemnation of terrorism without "any excuses or pretexts" which goes further than ever and declares that terrorism is kufr under Islamic law.

en.wikipedia.org...

On the question of whether attacks, such as suicide bombings, on civilians are ever justified in defense of Islam, Muslims in America are strongly on the less-violent end of the global spectrum. In the US, 81 percent of Muslims say such violence is never justified, a slightly higher share than the survey’s global median of 72 percent.

www.csmonitor.com...

“The undersigned, leaders of Islamic movements, are horrified by the events of Tuesday 11 September 2001 in the United States which resulted in massive killing, destruction and attack on innocent lives. We express our deepest sympathies and sorrow. We condemn, in the strongest terms, the incidents, which are against all human and Islamic norms. This is grounded in the Noble Laws of Islam which forbid all forms of attacks on innocents. God Almighty says in the Holy Qur’an: ‘No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another’ (Surah al-Isra 17:15).”

kurzman.unc.edu...

Terrorism cannot be born of religion. Terrorism is the product of corrupt minds, hardened hearts, and arrogant egos, and corruption, destruction, and arrogance are unknown to the heart attached to the divine.

www.themuslimtimes.org...

Muslim leaders have issued a fatwa condemning Islamic extremist group Isis, and have said that British jihadis are “betraying their own societies” by getting involved in the conflicts in Iraq and Syria.

www.independent.co.uk...

And this seems to be how every such incident plays out:

So let me start with the standard roll call: As an American Muslim, I condemn all violence in the name of religion. Terrorism has no religion and Islam is no exception. If the Tsarnaev brothers are guilty of the Boston bombings, then I hope they are brought to justice.

Is that condemnation clear enough? Because I'm pretty sure a whole lot of people instead read blah blah blah blah blah.

www.huffingtonpost.com...

You and others may not notice Muslim condemnation of terrorism, but it is there.

I can't believe that the thread has been totally misinterpreted by many...it shows just how much people are willing to listen to other perspectives and actually consume information...

a reply to: neformore

No I did read it. Its a mute point.

We shouldnt kill children. We shouldnt starve animals. We shouldnt slap babies.

DUH.

FTR there has NEVER been a time when radical Muslims have not held a strong voice in the Muslim world.

Also, Turkey invaded Greece in recent memory. They to this day have made a sovereign nation to be divided. Killed its citizens and took their wealth and land. FTR.

Radical Muslim groups have taken over parts of EVERY country in conflict in the ME with the expressed intent on taking the rest. FTR.

and as far as generalizations. I always say RADICAL Muslims. If that in your mind is somehow linked to moderates then I suggest you rethink the distance you think you are setting with your OP. You may yourself be thinking of Radicals who you dont want to be offended.

a reply to: tadaman

Who said anything about not offending radicals? The comparison was that ALL Muslims are being lumped together, and things that sound remarkably similar to 1930s Germany are being said about ALL Muslims.

a reply to: Zaphod58

But they are NOT similar. The Jewish people WERE NOT engaged in active warfare. The Jewish people DID NOT protect and promote radicals.

I dont think there will be a purge of Muslims. You are telling me you do? Please.

EDIT TO ADD:

The most that can be said of the OP is this. "When people are your enemy and even when they are not, we say mean things. "

originally posted by: Zaphod58
a reply to: tadaman

Who said anything about not offending radicals? The comparison was that ALL Muslims are being lumped together, and things that sound remarkably similar to 1930s Germany are being said about ALL Muslims.

This ^^^

I'm convinced that some here are either being purposely obtuse, or are just plain incapable of holding their attention long enough to grasp the crux of the OP.

a reply to: tadaman

I'm not sure you are comprehending.

We should not be blaming the muslim population as a whole for the acts of radicals/fundamentalists.

The rhetoric against the muslim population as a whole by some sections of society is reaching the same level as the Nazi's rhetoric against the jews. If it continues, we'll be heading towards another Kristallnacht.

Is that so hard to understand?

originally posted by: tadaman
a reply to: Zaphod58

But they are NOT similar. The Jewish people WERE NOT engaged in active warfare. The Jewish people DID NOT protect and promote radicals.

I dont think there will be a purge of Muslims? You are telling me you do? Please.

...

......

It doesn't matter whether or not the general demographics are similar. It matters that Muslims are currently being lumped together and condemned. Much like what the Jews experienced in the 1930's.

Do you get it now?

a reply to: neformore

I understand. Do you not understand that I simply DO NOT AGREE?

a reply to: Zaphod58

Nazi Germany was one country with regards to their perceived view of a people thought to be subverting their way of life, this however, is becoming a global reaction/condemnation to Islamic extremists across many borders and Continents based on actions carried out by those extremists in the name of Islam.


It's an increasing problem that Islam will have to deal with/correct and PDQ

a reply to: tadaman

I do now. And that means you are as fundamentalist as those you seek to condemn.

a reply to: tadaman

Whether there is a purge or not I don't know, but I'm hearing people saying that Muslims should be reported to DHS, and lose their rights, that they're all trying to take over everything, etc.

And you're saying with a straight face that DOESN'T sound like what was said about Jews in Nazi Germany?

a reply to: SLAYER69

From what i'm seeing, people are condemning moderate Muslims for the actions of radicals. Have you not seen the posts on ATS? Have you not seen the general actions taken against average Muslims in the past couple of months?

a reply to: neformore

Were the Jewish people an intolerant and backwards people cutting off people's heads and taking up arms against the non believers? Excusing these people might make you feel righteous but it doesn't make you right.

a reply to: tadaman
Okay dude, to use your own argument agaisnt you - you're still bitter about what a group did to your ethnicity 800 years ago.

What have we (white people) done to them, muslims, and non-muslims, in the past let's say 20 years, let alone 800 years?

Muslims have killed a few thousand of our people at best, while we killed 500,000+ innocent brown people in Iraq in 10 years, how many ten's of thousands of innocent Afghanis in the same time? How many children have we UAV'd to take out one extremist adult?

What about invading Iraq the first time, coercing them to invade Iran, forced overthrows of democratically elected regimes in South America replaced by pro-US butchers? Are you aware of how many people disappeared under Pinochet, alone?!

What about all the brown people we killed / enslaved in the colonial days, under British, German, Italian, French, Dutch rule? What about all the people killed and oppressed under the various western churches? What about the communist oppression of religious people, including muslims? What about the crusades?

Us white people are the most dangerous group on the planet, as evidenced by history. FACT

a reply to: Dystopium

Go back and read my OP, and come back and discuss it when you have, instead of wasting my time. Thanks.

a reply to: neformore

Ummm...I've been reading through this thread and have noticed that the moderators seem to be very condescending and outright nasty in their responses......What's up with that.......hmmm? You've totally blown whatever credibility you thought you started with...get over your bad selves...

OP...your opinion based observation is really cool...glad to see you expressing it...however...leveraging opinion with hyperbolic condescension does not help your........."cause".



YouSir

Oh for goodness sake. It isn't non-muslims that are causing the friggin trouble! Here we go again with yet another person willing to sell themselves out and apologise for what they know deep down is evil.