Pennsylvania mother who gave daughter abortion pill gets prison

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: Annee

It's just more intimidation and bullying. Trying to make women feel bad for making a personal decision regarding their own body that is no one else's business.

That's right. And that's why I speak out about it.

I am NOT ashamed and would make the same decision again under the same circumstance.

I DO NOT feel bad about the decision I made.

I do feel sad (not bad) about being in a situation that required me to make that decision.

a reply to: kaylaluv

Right! Because when women come forward, talking about their abortions and the reasons why they decided on abortion, it empowers other women. The pro-lifers/anti-choicers can't have that! They need to bully, intimidate and shame women, stopping them from making a choice that the religious think that they never should have.

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: WhiteAlice

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: WhiteAlice
a reply to: GogoVicMorrow

I think it's part because many of these women have felt like they have been put on the defensive on the entire subject. I see your points and, as I related, I drove 150 miles to get it done. I agree that the mother should've chose better. However, I don't think that's entirely what all of the women on this thread are necessarily disagreeing with. It's the condition in which it was created that that mother had to drive 74 miles or my 150 miles to get what needed to be done done.

My view is that it was wrong for her to break the law and it was also incredibly wrong that, whatever the situation was, that is what she felt she had to do because of the circumstances in this country. Why did I have to drive 150 miles for an involuntary abortion and why couldn't my own ob/gyn administer the pill that I had to drive 300 miles round trip for himself? You mentioned back alley abortion and I see that, too, albeit in a modernized form with infinitely less risk. What does it say about this country when we still have this kind of thing going on today, 41 years after Roe v. Wade?

Those conditions shouldn't exist. Why they exist though is because of religious and political reasons, because of death threats, bombings, and murders of providers. That's why I had to drive 300 miles to get a pill to terminate my pregnancy that was going to kill me.

As I posted above, those same conditions exist in Europe and Australia, without evil Republicans, because they have higher standard if care than we do (again, without evil republicans) and that it is not feasible to have such qualified clinics and physicians in ever single Podunk town. I have to drive 59 miles each way to take my kid to a pediatric neurologist.

When I said "in this country", I meant it precisely as I said it. It wasn't a comparison. It was a statement of fact that we happen to live "in this country". Please don't attribute more to three simple words than I ever did. I also didn't say "evil Republicans". Half of my family are Republicans, the other half are Democrats. We all get along just fine and have some good spirited debates at dinners. Again, attributing more to what I said and this time, including words that I never said.

Quit assuming you know what someone is saying or even implying or improve your reading comprehension.

You said this:

What does it say about this country when we still have this kind of thing going on today, 41 years after Roe v. Wade?

Those conditions shouldn't exist. Why they exist though is because of religious and political reasons, because of death threats, bombings, and murders of providers. That's why I had to drive 300 miles to get a pill to terminate my pregnancy that was going to kill me.

What "religious and political reasons" were you referring to then?

All I did was point out that there are similar issues elsewhere, in countries without those "religious and political" reasons you went on about.

Your argument here is generalizing. Political opinions on abortion do not necessarily follow political lines; however, those political lines within the local government can have a dramatic effect on abortion availability for all--not just elective. One can be a Democrat and pro-life like this group.

democratsforlife.org...

Most pro-life hold their opinions based on religious reasons, regardless of church. In the case of the pro-life Democrats, they are usually Catholic democrats. Europe, one of the examples you gave, also has a large religious population and Catholic in particular. If you recall, the Holy See is located in Italy. Considering it houses the virtual capital of the Catholic church and hosts a great number of religious faiths that also are against abortions, it confounds reason really that you would suggest that Europe does not also have the same religious and political issues as the US. That also isn't to say that if one is Catholic, they will be pro-life. That would be stupid as my own mother is Catholic and pro-choice. However, there is a strong tendency for religious reasons being cited in regards to pro-life opinions and heck, I even experienced that. I had flyers stuffed in my hand when I was at a clinic to have a blighted ovum extracted. They all talked about God.

As you can see, I would never state "Republicans" as being the sole source of anti-abortion issues nor was a I referring to any other country, which was the bulk of your response to my original posting. You made assumptions and you were absolutely wrong. As of this moment, it should be clear that your response to me failed on multiple counts. If you'd like to review what I actually wrote for what I said (no more, no less) and respond, please try again.

I will also warn you that I generally fail in the generalizations department due to autism. Not kidding. Autistics have a really hard time making generalizations so please stick to what I say and not your own assumptions/biases. You will not find cookie cutter opinions here.

originally posted by: thesaneone

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: thesaneone

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: kaylaluv

originally posted by: GogoVicMorrow
a reply to: kaylaluv

If that's the case it's up to the mother to tell her the clinic is the safe and only option and support her through it.

Yeah well, if it were my daughter, I would probably punch out any pro-lifers harassing her, so I'd probably go to jail anyway.

I'm for that

Me, being of an age who witnessed the horrors of pre-legal abortion, will help you.

. . . .some kind of blood thirst no wonder it doesn't bother you to take the life of a innocent child.

YOUR belief.

Not mine.

Lol, who's bragging they had elective abortions?

It's one thing to have an abortion but it's whole new level the way you seem so proud of what you have done, I mean who brags about killing a unborn child because they were getting a divorce?

Sharing one's experience with the subject at hand is NOT bragging. It's a statement of fact. In fact, most women typically do not state that they've had an abortion unless the need arises. In this case, given the subject matter, the need arose.

I was sent to abortion clinics for involuntary abortions due to medical reasons (risk of loss of life to self/fetal death). I can assure you right now that I did NOT see women acting casually or triumphantly in either the waiting room or the room where they allowed the woman to recover. What I did see were grief struck women, many of whom were sobbing uncontrollably and super sad male significant others trying to support them. It was deeply sad. Based on that, the only person who seems to be making light of it, in my eyes, is you for thinking anyone who has an abortion takes it lightly. Mine were involuntary--I had no choice other than do it or die. Even with my life on the line, it still remains a scorch across my heart.

originally posted by: WhiteAlice

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: WhiteAlice

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: WhiteAlice
a reply to: GogoVicMorrow

I think it's part because many of these women have felt like they have been put on the defensive on the entire subject. I see your points and, as I related, I drove 150 miles to get it done. I agree that the mother should've chose better. However, I don't think that's entirely what all of the women on this thread are necessarily disagreeing with. It's the condition in which it was created that that mother had to drive 74 miles or my 150 miles to get what needed to be done done.

My view is that it was wrong for her to break the law and it was also incredibly wrong that, whatever the situation was, that is what she felt she had to do because of the circumstances in this country. Why did I have to drive 150 miles for an involuntary abortion and why couldn't my own ob/gyn administer the pill that I had to drive 300 miles round trip for himself? You mentioned back alley abortion and I see that, too, albeit in a modernized form with infinitely less risk. What does it say about this country when we still have this kind of thing going on today, 41 years after Roe v. Wade?

Those conditions shouldn't exist. Why they exist though is because of religious and political reasons, because of death threats, bombings, and murders of providers. That's why I had to drive 300 miles to get a pill to terminate my pregnancy that was going to kill me.

As I posted above, those same conditions exist in Europe and Australia, without evil Republicans, because they have higher standard if care than we do (again, without evil republicans) and that it is not feasible to have such qualified clinics and physicians in ever single Podunk town. I have to drive 59 miles each way to take my kid to a pediatric neurologist.

When I said "in this country", I meant it precisely as I said it. It wasn't a comparison. It was a statement of fact that we happen to live "in this country". Please don't attribute more to three simple words than I ever did. I also didn't say "evil Republicans". Half of my family are Republicans, the other half are Democrats. We all get along just fine and have some good spirited debates at dinners. Again, attributing more to what I said and this time, including words that I never said.

Quit assuming you know what someone is saying or even implying or improve your reading comprehension.

You said this:

What does it say about this country when we still have this kind of thing going on today, 41 years after Roe v. Wade?

Those conditions shouldn't exist. Why they exist though is because of religious and political reasons, because of death threats, bombings, and murders of providers. That's why I had to drive 300 miles to get a pill to terminate my pregnancy that was going to kill me.

What "religious and political reasons" were you referring to then?

All I did was point out that there are similar issues elsewhere, in countries without those "religious and political" reasons you went on about.

Your argument here is generalizing. Political opinions on abortion do not necessarily follow political lines; however, those political lines within the local government can have a dramatic effect on abortion availability for all--not just elective. One can be a Democrat and pro-life like this group.

democratsforlife.org...

Most pro-life hold their opinions based on religious reasons, regardless of church. In the case of the pro-life Democrats, they are usually Catholic democrats. Europe, one of the examples you gave, also has a large religious population and Catholic in particular. If you recall, the Holy See is located in Italy. Considering it houses the virtual capital of the Catholic church and hosts a great number of religious faiths that also are against abortions, it confounds reason really that you would suggest that Europe does not also have the same religious and political issues as the US. That also isn't to say that if one is Catholic, they will be pro-life. That would be stupid as my own mother is Catholic and pro-choice. However, there is a strong tendency for religious reasons being cited in regards to pro-life opinions and heck, I even experienced that. I had flyers stuffed in my hand when I was at a clinic to have a blighted ovum extracted. They all talked about God.

As you can see, I would never state "Republicans" as being the sole source of anti-abortion issues nor was a I referring to any other country, which was the bulk of your response to my original posting. You made assumptions and you were absolutely wrong. As of this moment, it should be clear that your response to me failed on multiple counts. If you'd like to review what I actually wrote for what I said (no more, no less) and respond, please try again.

I will also warn you that I generally fail in the generalizations department due to autism. Not kidding. Autistics have a really hard time making generalizations so please stick to what I say and not your own assumptions/biases. You will not find cookie cutter opinions here.

But you did generalize. You said you had to travel far to get an abortion due to emergent, life threatening issues and that you assumed that you had to do so because of political and religious decisions? Yes or no?

I simply pointed out quite clearly that other countries--countries that do not have the same political and religious climate--also have various access issues with abortion specialty services and that it is very possible that other issues than what you claimed may have contributed to your distance traveled because they do elsewhere. Logical, neh?

originally posted by: WhiteAlice
I would never state "Republicans" as being the sole source of anti-abortion issues nor was a I referring to any other country, . . . .

I am not interested in discussing abortion rights in other countries. (Not that I don't care or support women's Right of Choice worldwide. Do you know of "abortion ships"? I do.)

Right of Choice in America is enough of an issue in itself.

The Republicans of today have a strong Right Wing Fundamental Christian voter base. They are the PRIMARY legislative force behind the anti-abortion movement.

Trying to deny this, by shifting focus elsewhere, is disingenuous.

----------------------

That is not saying there aren't:

Anti-abortionists who still support Right of Choice. They can separate personal belief from personal choice.

Atheists/Humanists who are anti-abortion. There's even a website, look it up. (N/M I'll provide: www.prolifehumanists.org...

Catholics who support birth control, even though it's against their religion, some even support Right of Choice.

Not every Republican is a Right Winger. Many support Right of Choice.

Some Democrats are anti-abortion and anti-Right of Choice.

Abortion ship: www.womenonwaves.org...

a reply to: Prezbo369

The key word in my statement was FORCED!!!!!

no one should be FORCED to pay for anyone else's anything. I said nothing about whether someone SHOULD help their fellow man.

I am ALL for helping my fellow man in society... I will NEVER willingly help facilitate someone murdering an innocent, and really unborn children are the only truly innocents in this world..

Jaden

Also, again, I am NOT against choice... I am for true equality, if it's not legally considered murder for some, it shouldn't be considered murder for ANY...If the mother has a choice then the father should TOO. If the father doesn't, then he should have a choice as to whether he has a legal obligation to support the child and if he chooses NOT to, he should have no legal parental rights either.

a reply to: NavyDoc

Actually, if you review this posts, you will see that I mentioned that the 3rd (numbered as 3. in the following post) was also specifically due to geographic location. Considering that post was not in response to you, I don't expect that you would've necessarily seen it so hopefully this clears it up: www.abovetopsecret.com...

If you would like more specifics, my hospital and ob/gyn was located in a town with a population of 3624, located on the Colorado Plateau. I used to live in the middle of nowhere. Literally. We had like two fast food places, two gas stations and horses and cows frequently grazed outside the bank. To expect that this very small town would house an abortion clinic or even maintain a stock of abortion pills would be silly. To put it into perspective, I was O neg and they had to order cryo for me as they had no O neg blood in stock nor did the next local hospital. If a required service is rare in a tiny town, whether it be an abortion or needing a rare blood type, it's not likely to be there.

The closest city (population 21,768) was 30 miles away and was a pretty religious community even to the extent of being home to two religious extremist groups--The Door and God's Army. The next next closest city was 150 miles away and had a population of almost 1 million. This town actually had a very strong and collective heart attack when the local pharmacy began to carry Plan-B. The pharmacy, in the end, removed Plan B from their store due to social pressures.

In a more ideal world, I should've been able to obtain a script for the drug from my super small town ob/gyn and obtained the drug from the closest city pharmacy. However, due to those sociopolitical reasons, that pharmacy couldn't even carry Plan-B. Hence why I ended up traveling 300 miles and why I cite part of that as being due to geography. Middle of nowhere plus nearest city was very religious overall but mostly geographical as there was only one city between where I lived and where I had to go.

PS. You should also realize that this is precisely one of the reasons why I agree with the mother being charged in the OP. We had to drive 300 miles round trip v. her 150 mile round trip that she did not take. We managed to do it--so could she.

a reply to: Annee

Yeah, if you keep repeating it, you might start believing it...I think that's the left's mantra isn't it???

I am not on the right btw, I am a hard core libertarian...and constitutionalist.

Jaden

a reply to: windword

I don't agree with that either, but that is NOT the ruling, that is secondary fallout because of the constitutionally illegal obummercare.

Jaden

originally posted by: Masterjaden
a reply to: Annee

Yeah, if you keep repeating it, you might start believing it...I think that's the left's mantra isn't it???

I am not on the right btw, I am a hard core libertarian...and constitutionalist.

Jaden

Then you don't wanna know what I think of Libertarians.

Oh, and I believe Scalia also considers himself a Constitutionalist.

originally posted by: Masterjaden

I am ALL for helping my fellow man in society... I will NEVER willingly help facilitate someone murdering an innocent, and really unborn children are the only truly innocents in this world..

Jaden

I pay for your sewer.

Feel free to go dig a pit.

a reply to: Annee

I'll happily tell what I think of people on the left AND the right.

I think the left are a bunch of emotional incompetents and the right a bunch of scheming assholes, both of whom want control over everyone else without consideration for right and wrong or true freedom.

As far as the courts, we have gone so far from the constitution it's ridiculous. As soon as we strayed from common law and true freedom after the civil war, we screwed ourselves and cemented it after the founding of the Federal Reserve and the Socialist act, I mean the New Deal...

Jaden

a reply to: Annee

Who says I use a sewer??? I may have my own septic tank and already pay for my own #...pun intended.

Jaden

originally posted by: Masterjaden
a reply to: Annee

I'll happily tell what I think of people on the left AND the right.

I'm a Centrist.

Logic is my guideline.

originally posted by: WhiteAlice
a reply to: NavyDoc

Actually, if you review this posts, you will see that I mentioned that the 3rd (numbered as 3. in the following post) was also specifically due to geographic location. Considering that post was not in response to you, I don't expect that you would've necessarily seen it so hopefully this clears it up: www.abovetopsecret.com...

If you would like more specifics, my hospital and ob/gyn was located in a town with a population of 3624, located on the Colorado Plateau. I used to live in the middle of nowhere. Literally. We had like two fast food places, two gas stations and horses and cows frequently grazed outside the bank. To expect that this very small town would house an abortion clinic or even maintain a stock of abortion pills would be silly. To put it into perspective, I was O neg and they had to order cryo for me as they had no O neg blood in stock nor did the next local hospital. If a required service is rare in a tiny town, whether it be an abortion or needing a rare blood type, it's not likely to be there.

The closest city (population 21,768) was 30 miles away and was a pretty religious community even to the extent of being home to two religious extremist groups--The Door and the Army of God. The next next closest city was 150 miles away and had a population of almost 1 million. This town actually had a very strong and collective heart attack when the local pharmacy began to carry Plan-B. The pharmacy, in the end, removed Plan B from their store due to social pressures.

In a more ideal world, I should've been able to obtain a script for the drug from my super small town ob/gyn and obtained the drug from the closest city pharmacy. However, due to those sociopolitical reasons, that pharmacy couldn't even carry Plan-B. Hence why I ended up traveling 300 miles and why I cite part of that as being due to geography. Middle of nowhere plus nearest city was very religious overall but mostly geographical as there was only one city between where I lived and where I had to go.

Well, It's hard to discuss the particulars of a situation when you don't have the whole story, but I was under the impression that you went 300 miles for a procedure due to a life threatening issues, not to get a medication. That does make the issue very different. Never mind, carry on. The local pharmacy should have carried the medication and the local OB//GYN was qualified to supervise it and the near town of 21,000 people was probably more than equipped to handle any potential complications.

Had it been a surgical emergency, like placental abruption, I can perfectly understand why they would want to send you 300 miles to a tertiary care facility with a trauma suite--especially if you have blood types issues.

(Abrupto placenta in a person with rare blood type is one of those things that give OB/GYN docs nightmares. )

I've never heard of The Door and the Army of God. Westboro Baptist types or more violent?

originally posted by: Masterjaden
a reply to: Annee

Who says I use a sewer??? I may have my own septic tank and already pay for my own #...pun intended.

Jaden

Metaphor.

Until we start settling the moon or other planets, being part of a whole (society) is what we have.

Taxes pay for a lot of things I don't support.

But, what I consider "need" others will consider "want". Who exactly determines in the importance of a "whole" the difference between "need" and "want"?

YOU, the individual?

originally posted by: Masterjaden
a reply to: windword

I don't agree with that either, but that is NOT the ruling, that is secondary fallout because of the constitutionally illegal obummercare.

Jaden

You are absolutely incorrect, but for kicks, what do you think the ruling said, actually? What did the Supreme Court decide, do ya think?

a reply to: NavyDoc

Glad we're cleared up on that. I was 5 weeks pregnant when the pregnancy was detected so there was zero risk in terms of rupture. Rupture takes growth and man did I have some freaky nightmares in the few days it took to arrange the road trip. I'm actually a nightmare for docs when it comes to these things. I am O neg, have no Von Willebrand's Factor and low Factor VIII. So rare blood type plus bleeder = surgeon's worst nightmare. Before my c-section out there, my pre-op bleeding time exceeded 25 minutes and DDAVP is only partially effective for me. Hence why it was absolutely urgent to get it done.

The further out in the middle of nowhere one gets, the freakier the groups seem to get.

"The Door" was actually based off of Potter's House Christian Fellowship and is possibly more closely comparable to WBC. The Door was largely viewed by locals as being a brainwashing religious cult. The worst they did was basically rush cars en mass in grocery store parking lots to tell us all that we were all going to hell unless we joined.
en.wikipedia.org...

God's Army/Army of God is what the locals called them. Their official name is the Aggressive Christianity Missionary Training Corps. They are a paramilitary Christian extremist group with cult status that basically make the WBC look like a church bake sale. They mostly kept to themselves but would send a woman into town to sell homemade bread and art from a basket. She wore modified military garb and would speak to no one. Freaky as hell in that kind of undefinable way.

Here's a couple of links about them that can give you a pretty good idea of the tone of crazy in that group. I talked with members of Rajneeshpuram long ago and they were less scary to me than ACMTC. That's kind of saying something, I think:
www.aggressivechristianity.net...
tvblogs.nationalgeographic.com...

originally posted by: WhiteAlice
a reply to: NavyDoc

Glad we're cleared up on that. I was 5 weeks pregnant when the pregnancy was detected so there was zero risk in terms of rupture. Rupture takes growth and man did I have some freaky nightmares in the few days it took to arrange the road trip. I'm actually a nightmare for docs when it comes to these things. I am O neg, have no Von Willebrand's Factor and low Factor VIII. So rare blood type plus bleeder = surgeon's worst nightmare. Before my c-section out there, my pre-op bleeding time exceeded 25 minutes and DDAVP is only partially effective for me. Hence why it was absolutely urgent to get it done.

The further out in the middle of nowhere one gets, the freakier the groups seem to get.

"The Door" was actually based off of Potter's House Christian Fellowship and is possibly more closely comparable to WBC. The Door was largely viewed by locals as being a brainwashing religious cult. The worst they did was basically rush cars en mass in grocery store parking lots to tell us all that we were all going to hell unless we joined.
en.wikipedia.org...

God's Army/Army of God is what the locals called them. Their official name is the Aggressive Christianity Missionary Training Corps. They are a paramilitary Christian extremist group with cult status that basically make the WBC look like a church bake sale. They mostly kept to themselves but would send a woman into town to sell homemade bread and art from a basket. She wore modified military garb and would speak to no one. Freaky as hell in that kind of undefinable way.

Here's a couple of links about them that can give you a pretty good idea of the tone of crazy in that group. I talked with members of Rajneeshpuram long ago and they were less scary to me than ACMTC. That's kind of saying something, I think:
www.aggressivechristianity.net...
tvblogs.nationalgeographic.com...

Ouch. You poor person. Yeah, you would give a surgeon and his anesthesiologist the nervous ticks. Glad that everything went well and hope you never get into a situation where they have to start calling blood banks.


Scary. And here I thought Idaho was the enclave of the religious terrorist organizations.