Ukraine and Russian forces engage

So, Ukrainian forces destroyed a Russian convoy of APC's that had "invaded"? So far, we have been shown absolutely zero evidence of this, by anyone. Hell, even the Whitehouse seems to be backing away from their initial claims about it.

Lets face it, the US and others are monitoring, in real time, everything going on over there, with spyplanes, satellites and people on the ground, yet nobody has been able to show one single piece of evidence that this event even happened. Where are the shots of the burning and destroyed APC's, the dead and injured, etc....etc. You'd think they'd have images plastered all over the western press to back up the claims, yet there is nothing other than parroted reports and "tweets"!

originally posted by: Britguy
Lets face it, the US and others are monitoring, in real time, everything going on over there, with spyplanes, satellites and people on the ground, yet nobody has been able to show one single piece of evidence that this event even happened.

A good point that can be applied back to Russia as well since they have the same capabilities.

originally posted by: Britguy
Where are the shots of the burning and destroyed APC's, the dead and injured, etc....etc. You'd think they'd have images plastered all over the western press to back up the claims, yet there is nothing other than parroted reports and "tweets"!

Since Russia constantly claims they have no forces in Ukraine they are not going to admit to forces being destroyed there.

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: crazyewok

I guess that's possible. I'm sure there's a number 'working' in the U.K. as well as a few ex-pats.

More than European immigrants to N.A.?... sorry, I'd put money on that one.

The reason the Whitehorse immigrant issue stuck with me is they where very obviously well educated, middle-upper middle class people. Whitehorse, Yukon isn't a place I'd guess as a immigrant destination foe a European middle class.

I asked a couple of locals about it and was told there where "lots" of European immigrants with 'money' arriving. This was about 5 years back.

Frankly, I can't travel far, Canada or the U.S. without bumping into a Brit..

Canada and Australia id agree but very few I know choose the USA. At least long term, i know many my age that got temp Visa but they are just there for a few months too see the "world" plus you got business travellers, cause many UK businesses are US owned or have US branches we have to go out for a few weeks, I was in that boat myself. Also marriage as well, as many of us have family both side of the pond its common for American/UK marriages which is what accounts for immigration both ways I think.

Plus you have to remember not all the EU is the same. Country's differ greatly , some are crap holes and others are better than the UK and USA.

We are not all poor huddled masses I can tell you that,

Again think it

a reply to: tsurfer2000h

My post that you replied to was worded in response to RealTruth sliding into this thread, not actually discussing the topic and calling a poster out as a Kremlin Shill.

On this site at the moment there is A LOT of side taking, A LOT of believing one side or the other, A LOT of black and white thinking with no room for the myriad shades of grey in this situation.

There is propaganda coming from BOTH sides of this conflict. This is where this site is losing objectivity. Because one side seems to believe the other side is the only one pushing Propaganda. It's like the Cold War Mark 2 in here.

There's lots of bickering and mud slinging from one side or the other but very little discussion saying; 'Hang on a moment, i think that what BOTH sides are doing stinks, Lets investigate that shall we'.

a reply to: Xcathdra

That doesn't make any sense really, The US is monitoring Ukraine/Russian borders, The US hasn't provided any satellite data showing Russians in Ukraine. And you know they would do this instantly if they had ANY.

The fact a white house Tweet came that they couldn't confirm the destroyed convoy means there wasn't any.

"... that can be applied back to Russia" How can you show something that doesn't exist?

But just so there's no misunderstanding here, I'm convinced Russia is sending troops into Ukraine, they would be stupid not to.

But so is the US with their " CIA advisers"

There is propaganda coming from BOTH sides of this conflict. This is where this site is losing objectivity. Because one side seems to believe the other side is the only one pushing Propaganda. It's like the Cold War Mark 2 in here.

This ^

a reply to: cosmicts

Engage? To be married?

a reply to: IseeyourBS

Lightningstrikeshere is that you?

a reply to: skitzspiricy

On this site at the moment there is A LOT of side taking, A LOT of believing one side or the other, A LOT of black and white thinking, with no room for the myriad shades of grey in this situation.

I will agree with you on that.

Because one side seems to believe the other side is the only one pushing Propaganda.

Well it has been proven that a certain side has been ramping up the propaganda machine full bore. In fact it has been shown on many sites such as this one...

www.examiner.com...

Which is why one side believes the other side is pushing the propaganda more. I am more than willing to see the propaganda such as that I linked to coming from western media concerning this conflict, but there just isn't any that can be shown...which is why they have to include other conflicts into the discussion as proof.

Lost of bickering from one side or the other but very little discussion saying; 'Hang on a moment, i think that what BOTH sides are doing stinks, Lets investigate that shall we'.

There has been, but it usually ends up with the west is running the neo-nazi facist government and Russia is right. It seems that no matter what evidence that is provided the west is always wrong even when evidence shows differently.

originally posted by: JustKoz
a reply to: cosmicts
Hopefully NATO will stop this soon

NATO sure did left Libya in Ruins and completely forgotten the sudden jump to support NATO in here in this manner is rather sad.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Since Russia constantly claims they have no forces in Ukraine they are not going to admit to forces being destroyed there.

I am sure there are no American forces right in Ukraine doing all the dirty as if they are not going to admit to forces being responsible for the sniper shooting that occurred in Kiev.

originally posted by: MessageforAll
a reply to: IseeyourBS

Lightningstrikeshere is that you?

No....sorry.

originally posted by: tsurfer2000h
a reply to: skitzspiricy

On this site at the moment there is A LOT of side taking, A LOT of believing one side or the other, A LOT of black and white thinking, with no room for the myriad shades of grey in this situation.

I will agree with you on that.

Because one side seems to believe the other side is the only one pushing Propaganda.

Well it has been proven that a certain side has been ramping up the propaganda machine full bore. In fact it has been shown on many sites such as this one...

www.examiner.com...

Which is why one side believes the other side is pushing the propaganda more. I am more than willing to see the propaganda such as that I linked to coming from western media concerning this conflict, but there just isn't any that can be shown...which is why they have to include other conflicts into the discussion as proof.

Lost of bickering from one side or the other but very little discussion saying; 'Hang on a moment, i think that what BOTH sides are doing stinks, Lets investigate that shall we'.

There has been, but it usually ends up with the west is running the neo-nazi facist government and Russia is right. It seems that no matter what evidence that is provided the west is always wrong even when evidence shows differently.

And you don't find it ironic that you have just given an perfect example of what that poster was referring to?

a reply to: Xcathdra

they've interviewed the convoy drivers that stayed behind, because they were convoy drivers of that humanitarian convoy in white trucks, which took different route than that supposed military convoy that is said to cross the border. i still have to see a proof of russian military crossing the border.

[...] my mistake. it seems like the green men in crimea were active duty military after all.
rt.com...

but then, i don't think crimea should be mixed in in this thread, because it's a totally different matter - it was kinda autonomous already and already had a russian military base. kiev thought they won't have to respect the deals, but started crying when putin said 'no more promotional gas pricing, the deal with crimea is over'. it was a mess that was expected to happen, only someone insane would think that russia will give up crimea.

it's a mess and kiev doesn't make it any better. where are the pics supporting their claim that they've encountered and destroyed russian military vehicles in ukraine? they claim they're fighting russian military, yet there's not a single picture? maybe they were russian ex-military, kiev realised they're not connected to kremlin at all and couldn't provide any evidence, yet they're trying to blame it on putin this time. or maybe they didn't exist at all, just like saddam's arsenal. ah, saddam. yes. perhaps then it was a single soldier patroling the border that had a gps/glonass malfunction and poor scared ukrainians made him look like a russian invasion.

c'mon, can't you smell a rat here?

again, i'm not saying that russia is clean. with those rebels (some claim there are some green men in eastern ukraine outside of crimea, but again - no hard proof, nor proof that those are russian soldiers and not private ex-military people - some of the rebels certainly are russians that came to the ukraine on their own, regardless of their uniforms), it's hard to tell what's really going on behind the scenes - they may be acting on their own, or they may be backed by russian officials behind the scenes. but then, even if, isn't that what usa is doing all over the world? with the exception that usa and cia are more or less openly supporting and arming different sides of multiple conflicts all the time, and it's all fine. sure, russia does the same thing, but probably on smaller scale. still, in case of ukraine, there is no clear proof that it's a war by proxy by russia - considering the mess the west created in ukraine, i wouldn't be surprised if eastern ukraine would be strong enough to pick up that fight on its own. those are people that often have families in russia, they have connections in russia, it's not that far fetched to think some russian ex-military decided to help them on their own. you think they wouldn't have such capability? think again. it's certainly less far fetched than a claim that putin plays kitten and mouse with the west in ukraine, when he could just move in and clean up the mess in days at most.

and don't forget the fact that the whole kiev junta has very little support from common ukrainian folks. as could be seen in crimea, ukrainian military is not that willing to fight their own citizens as the western media makes us believe. they consider them brothers, not terrorists. the biggest mess is created by extreme right wings/fascists like right sector, which was transformed into national guard afair. kiev did it because without some armed thugs they wouldn't have an armed force big enough willing to kill the citizens of their own country 'because the west says so'.

just watch carefully the actions taken by kiev from the very beginning of this conflict - actions, not claims they made - and you'll see a clearer picture. it's not russia, nor the rebels, that are fueling this conflict. it's the west and their money.

food for thought:
www.voltairenet.org...

originally posted by: Xcathdra
An interesting comment from this article - Ukraine 'hits Russia armoured column' amid aid impasse

Russia's defence ministry said the incursion reports were "some kind of fantasy".

It said: "There was no Russian military column that crossed the Russian-Ukrainian border either at night or during the day."

Nato Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen said: "We see a continuous flow of weapons and fighters from Russia into eastern Ukraine, and it is a clear demonstration of continued Russian involvement in [its] destabilisation."

The Pentagon later said US Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel had been assured by Russian counterpart Sergey Shoygu that there were no military personnel in the aid convoy.

Notice when asked about Russian military units moving into Ukraine he responded by stating there were no military personnel in the convoy. That was not the question asked.

Of course there is no military presence in the aid convoy. The convoy stopped at the border - Russian military units did not.

notice that they've also claimed there was no other convoy than the aid one. so what else was he supposed to say?

"russian military units did not" - claims, claims, nothing but claims and no proof again. guardian says this, nato says that, usa confirms everything - surely the people supporting a government they've installed by overthrowing the previous one, that is able to burn their own citizens alive without an eye blink, wouldn't lie, right?

RIGHT?

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: Britguy
Lets face it, the US and others are monitoring, in real time, everything going on over there, with spyplanes, satellites and people on the ground, yet nobody has been able to show one single piece of evidence that this event even happened.

A good point that can be applied back to Russia as well since they have the same capabilities.

yes, because russia should show a hard evidence that their military vehicles didn't cross the ukrainian border. and what would it be, a video footage of the whole border line, hour after hour?

did you flush your logic down the toilet?

the dogs bark but the caravan goes

a reply to: MessageforAll

They have provided satellite images... Pro Russians dismiss them.

originally posted by: Agent_USA_Supporter
a reply to: Xcathdra

Since Russia constantly claims they have no forces in Ukraine they are not going to admit to forces being destroyed there.

I am sure there are no American forces right in Ukraine doing all the dirty as if they are not going to admit to forces being responsible for the sniper shooting that occurred in Kiev.

Im sure if there were Russia would show us pictures of it.

originally posted by: MessageforAll

Damn

Desired effect of BS in the news?

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: Agent_USA_Supporter
a reply to: Xcathdra

Since Russia constantly claims they have no forces in Ukraine they are not going to admit to forces being destroyed there.

I am sure there are no American forces right in Ukraine doing all the dirty as if they are not going to admit to forces being responsible for the sniper shooting that occurred in Kiev.

Im sure if there were Russia would show us pictures of it.

That job first is up to your beloved Candyman Ukrankian Government as they were the first ones to come up with a such laughable accusation.

Just like how Syrian rebels claimed Assad was in a Ship in Moscow.