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Ukraine and Russian forces engage

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posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 05:31 PM
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originally posted by: paraphi
2. The Eurozone is not teetering. Some people forget that the EU is the biggest economy on the planet and Russia's economy is about the size of Italy, the fourth largest economy in the EU.


People forget this - they assume Russia must be massive, in economic terms, but compared to the EU it is a minnow. Any trade with Russia, be it gas coming in or cars going out, can easily be replaced and without much pain.




posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 05:34 PM
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originally posted by: Flatcoat
Are these the same nice guy's who used C.W's on civilians and tried to blame it on Assad?


First of all (as this is the quote some like to use):

Pics or it didn't happen! Where is the proof?

Anyway, now that's out of the way, if rebels did do it, it was most likely ISIS or Al Nusra. Once again, you're lumping them all into one big, easy to understand box when in actual fact the rebels fight each other more than they do Assad.



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 05:40 PM
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a reply to: stumason




Anyway, now that's out of the way, if rebels did do it, it was most likely ISIS or Al Nusra. Once again, you're lumping them all into one big, easy to understand box when in actual fact the rebels fight each other more than they do Assad.


I'd agree. That being said, do you think it's such a great idea to fund these nutjobs when they have no idea where or with who the funding will end up?



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 05:46 PM
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a reply to: paraphi

Your response makes sense.

Still, I have an 'itch' I can't reach and it won't go away. LOL.

For example, other than the 'elites', when have European nations ever been in lock-step?

To defend the Ukraine would cost an economy that isn't in any better shape than it was a year ago. The military expenditures could be too much to bear on top of everything else.

Give Russia carte blanch on the Ukraine and let Putin have it uncontested? Draw the line at the Polish border? Again?

Sure, Russia would find a different kettle of fish in the Ukraine than Georgia. That really doesn't make life any easier in Europe as they'd be forced to assume a bigger, deterrent level at the minimum, defense posture.

A potential back-breaker for the Eurozone, to say the least.



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 05:48 PM
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a reply to: stumason

I will see if I can find the source.



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 05:48 PM
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a reply to: MessageforAll

Do you even live in Europe?

I'd hardly say the extreme right is on the rise, it's about where it's always been (with ebbs and flows)

You seem to be making some huge sweeping assumptions about the EU, it's direction and Germany specifically which seem to contradict the facts on the ground.



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 05:55 PM
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a reply to: stumason

Excuse me?
Germany :
uk.reuters.com...
Blames Russian Sanctions :



Hailed as Europe's growth locomotive in recent years, Germany now faces the prospect of sinking into a technical recession this year if, as some expect, the escalating showdown with Russia over Ukraine hits the economy harder in the third quarter by crimping trade and discouraging corporate investment.


Rise of extreme right :
www.theguardian.com...
thinkprogress.org...




This week concluded the 2014 European elections, in which a wave of previously fringe, far-right political parties made significant gains in the European Parliament. These parties, all “eurosceptic” — opposed to membership in the European Union


Divide between South and north Europe :
www.policy-network.net...



Some weeks ago Lluis Orriols wrote an interesting article about the emerging “ideological divorce” in Europe between the so-called PIIGS (Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece and Spain) and the rest of the EU countries. While the former are increasingly moving to the left, the rest of Europe is gradually moving to the right.


I'm a European and I do know what I hear/see around me.



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 06:05 PM
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Also, to back up my statement about Germany siding with Russia, look at this article :
www.independent.co.uk...
Land for gas: Merkel and Putin discussed secret deal could end Ukraine crisis



Germany and Russia have been working on a secret plan to broker a peaceful solution to end international tensions over Ukraine.

The Independent can reveal that the peace plan, being worked on by both Angela Merkel and Vladimir Putin, hinges on two main ambitions: stabilising the borders of Ukraine and providing the financially troubled country with a strong economic boost, particularly a new energy agreement ensuring security of gas supplies.

More controversially, if Ms Merkel’s deal were to be acceptable to the Russians, the international community would need to recognise Crimea’s independence and its annexation by Russia, a move that some members of the United Nations might find difficult to stomach.
....
....
As part of the deal, Russia would compensate Ukraine with a billion-dollar financial package for the loss of the rent it used to pay for stationing its fleets in the Crimea and at the port of Sevastopol on the Black Sea until Crimea voted for independence in March.


But this plan has been halted since the downing of the Airplane, still I thought this was very interesting.



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 06:07 PM
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a reply to: stumason OK. I recall it now....getting old.


It was a financial newsletter of an acquaintance. it will take a few days to scare it up-I will do so.

The premise, counter to mainstream media which, of course, wouldn't want any further shaken confidence in the Eurozone at the time, suggested far less support for bailing out Greece at the grass-roots-in Germany- than the media was acknowledging.

I gave it credence, even though being a low to middle level newsletter, due to the fact these 'newsletter' types give each other free access to one another's issues.

This apparently, protects from misinformation and allows expanding on points made by other 'letters'.

Again, I've lost contact with the individual, however, my daughter has kept them. I will P.M. you the issue if you'd like.



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 06:09 PM
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originally posted by: MessageforAll
a reply to: stumason

Excuse me?
Germany :
uk.reuters.com...
Blames Russian Sanctions :


From you're own link:



Exports to Russia, which fell 15 percent in the first five months of the year, make up only 3.3 percent of total German exports. But the standoff has added to uncertainty among German companies, already unnerved by government energy policies and a rollback of pension and labour market reforms under Chancellor Angela Merkel's seven-month-old grand coalition.


Only 3% of exports go to Russia, hence the exceedingly tiny 0.2% drop in output. Hardly panic stations - even with this contraction, which is a short term response to the crisis, the Germany economy is still predicted to grow at least 1.5% this year.


originally posted by: MessageforAll
Rise of extreme right :
www.theguardian.com...
thinkprogress.org...


The Guardian story sums up with a claimed 450,000 people with "extreme right views".

Wow - a whole 450,000 people out of 500 Million... Watch out, the Nazi's are back! A whole 0.1% of the population. So, about the same as always then.

When you see them holding large marches like they did in the 20's and 30's, then worry.

The second article is clearly some left-wing drivel.

UKIP a far right party? Give over. Some of the other parties in that list are hardly far right either, simply "nationalist", which is an entirely different kettle of fish, such as the DPP.

If you genuinely think a nationalist party is the same as an extreme right, then you need your head examined.


originally posted by: MessageforAll


This week concluded the 2014 European elections, in which a wave of previously fringe, far-right political parties made significant gains in the European Parliament. These parties, all “eurosceptic” — opposed to membership in the European Union



But the left-wing parties still got the most votes and control the EU Parliament, by a long shot. And, as stated, what you call "extreme right" is hardly that.


originally posted by: MessageforAll
Divide between South and north Europe :
www.policy-network.net...


There has always been a divide, except in the past few years it has come home to roost in the South were they view paying taxes as a hobby and going to work as a novelty. There is no free ride anymore, as countries like Greece and Portugal are finding out.


originally posted by: MessageforAll
I'm a European and I do know what I hear/see around me.


Where from?



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 06:18 PM
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a reply to: stumason

Nice answer, I know I can't convince you, you'l refute any article I'l show you ( some legitimate, other stretched )
But not one sane person can claim the EU heading isn't heading towards collapse.

To reply to you, well its enough to make the Germans rethink the sanctions, they are becoming very vocal about this.
The Extreme right parties are extreme, and they are increasing, I did say there is a rise, I didn't say they have the mojority.

I'm from Belgium btw, shamefully the centrum of the EU.

edit on thAmerica/Chicago815000000k2014 by MessageforAll because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 06:32 PM
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Did Ukraine Attack Its Own Tanks? White House "Can't Confirm Russian Convoy Was Destroyed By Kiev"

Perhaps for the simplest reason that there is no evidence to help with the confirmation process?

Which is rather unpleasant, because as explained above, without confirmation of a destroyed convoy, the whole story falls apart as merely yet another unprecedented warmongering fabrication, one involving not only the Kiev regime, but NATO and the UK press as well!

www.zerohedge.com...



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 06:38 PM
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a reply to: jedi_hamster

WikiLeaks Show WMD Hunt Continued in Iraq – With Surprising Results

By late 2003, even the Bush White House’s staunchest defenders were starting to give up on the idea that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

But WikiLeaks’ newly-released Iraq war documents reveal that for years afterward, U.S. troops continued to find chemical weapons labs, encounter insurgent specialists in toxins and uncover weapons of mass destruction.

An initial glance at the WikiLeaks war logs doesn’t reveal evidence of some massive WMD program by the Saddam Hussein regime — the Bush administration’s most (in)famous rationale for invading Iraq. But chemical weapons, especially, did not vanish from the Iraqi battlefield. Remnants of Saddam’s toxic arsenal, largely destroyed after the Gulf War, remained. Jihadists, insurgents and foreign (possibly Iranian) agitators turned to these stockpiles during the Iraq conflict — and may have brewed up their own deadly agents.

In August 2004, for instance, American forces surreptitiously purchased what they believed to be containers of liquid sulfur mustard, a toxic “blister agent” used as a chemical weapon since World War I. The troops tested the liquid, and “reported two positive results for blister.” The chemical was then “triple-sealed and transported to a secure site” outside their base.

Three months later, in northern Iraq, U.S. scouts went to
look in on a “chemical weapons” complex. “One of the bunkers has been tampered with,” they write. “The integrity of the seal [around the complex] appears intact, but it seems someone is interesting in trying to get into the bunkers.”


Please show me the UN resolutions against Iraq which stated they could have "some" chemical weapons programs. Secondly in effort to keep this on topic we can move this issue to another thread if you wish. There are plenty discussing this information on this site.

As for the remainder of your position the same applies in your direction as well. In addition to Kiev stating Russia crossed the border, you have a western media source who not only observed it, but interviewed the "convoy drivers" who remained behind, which by the way shows pictures of them.

Posted here - www.abovetopsecret.com...

and ignored by most on the pro Russian side. That part is fine, but to make the claims you are when there is evidence to the contrary causes a problem.

One sure fire way to confirm Russian / Ukraine claims would be to see if a large number of Russian families are being told their family members who are in the Russian military died, and if so what was the reason given for their death. Same for injured Russian soldiers.

As for misdirection Putin has gone on the official record many times while lying to the people, which includes Russian media. Putin has claimed time and again there were no Russians inside Ukraine when in fact there were. The no insignia troops in Crimea were Russian, they were armed, and they took action outside of their bases, a clear violation of the treaty Russia signed with Ukraine (and also meeting the legal definition of armed invasion of a sovereign territory - namely Ukraine.

As for investigated, another term I am not sure why you are using - its been established that no matter what investigation occurs and what it confirms, it will never be accepted, regardless of evidence, if it does not support the Russian propaganda used to invade Ukraine. This has already been demonstrated, for example people still claiming the non insignia soldiers in Crimea were not Russian soldiers, when putin in fact stated to RT they were Russian troops.

If UK media releases video footage of the Russian units crossing into Ukraine, I doubt you would accept those as evidence - right?



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 06:40 PM
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originally posted by: nwtrucker
Give Russia carte blanch on the Ukraine and let Putin have it uncontested? Draw the line at the Polish border? Again?


Why? Ukraine is a sovereign nation and should be allowed to do ally itself who whomsoever it choses. Putin and Russia need to wake up and realise the world is not as simple as the old Soviet times.

Europe has economic depth. Sanctions are hurting Russia more than they will hurt the EU.

Regards



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 06:52 PM
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For somthing thats such a big deal im seeing nothing on the bbc



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 06:54 PM
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originally posted by: Flatcoat
a reply to: stumason




Anyway, now that's out of the way, if rebels did do it, it was most likely ISIS or Al Nusra. Once again, you're lumping them all into one big, easy to understand box when in actual fact the rebels fight each other more than they do Assad.


I'd agree. That being said, do you think it's such a great idea to fund these nutjobs when they have no idea where or with who the funding will end up?


In short as possible... NO

When Russia is in the equation and stands to lose anything western and NATO foreign policy is cockblock Russia at all cost

Funny enough Russia's is the same


edit on 15-8-2014 by TritonTaranis because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 06:54 PM
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a reply to: paraphi

Whitehorse, eh?

I ran up that way on my Alaska runs a few years back.

Sure was a lot of European immigrants in the Yukon. Seems they wanted out of Europe. LOL.

Great town.

As far as Europe goes. I believe any faith in the European Union is greatly misplaced. Prima Facie evidence is the continued arrival of immigrants to N.A., not the other way around.

Any currency back by the IMF-therefore backed by the U.S. dollar, LMFAO, an IOU backed by an IOU back by an IOU is anything but 'stable'. Just my opinion though.



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 07:00 PM
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Draw the line at the polish boarders again?

Christ you just stepped on so many sovereign countries with that suggestion Adolf

How about draw the lines before the Russian empire and later the Soviet Union swallowed up its neighbours?

let's see if Russia will hold a legitimate referendum on Siberian independence ?



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 07:05 PM
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originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: paraphi

Whitehorse, eh?

I ran up that way on my Alaska runs a few years back.

Sure was a lot of European immigrants in the Yukon. Seems they wanted out of Europe. LOL.

Great town.

As far as Europe goes. I believe any faith in the European Union is greatly misplaced. Prima Facie evidence is the continued arrival of immigrants to N.A., not the other way around.

Any currency back by the IMF-therefore backed by the U.S. dollar, LMFAO, an IOU backed by an IOU back by an IOU is anything but 'stable'. Just my opinion though.




Really i have meet many Americans living in the UK that immigrated over, more than tne other way.

But I guess it depends on what country in the EU not all EU countrys are the same. I



posted on Aug, 15 2014 @ 07:06 PM
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originally posted by: nwtrucker
Whitehorse, eh?
I ran up that way on my Alaska runs a few years back.


Wrong Whitehorse. Alaska is a few thousand miles away!

We can argue the toss about the EU, but it is not doomed, flawed maybe, but not doomed. If it was, why do so many sovereign nations want to join? Because they prosper.

Regards




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